“ The Bared sword upon the neck of the Blasphemer of Rasool Allah”: Defending Article 295-C

[M. Sarmad]

It is good that now we are coming to the point..

My question, do ahadiths suggest that blasphemers were killed?

Ahadith suggest that a few blasphemers were killed, not because of blasphemy, but because they waged war against Muslims

Keep in mind ... some Ahadith "suggest" this

 

[VCheng]

But there never was a time when killing/punishing blasphemers was ordered by Allah almighty in the Holy Quran

Surah An-Nissah is a Medinian surah, in verse 140 of this surah, Allah tells Muslims not to sit in the company of blasphemers

Killing/punishing blasphemers wasn't ordered even in Medina . ... what's your point ?

Just a word of friendly advice - please let this go. Regardless of the religious basis, as long as the Blasphemy Law is on the books, it must be followed by due process. Let anyone accused be given the proper legal venue instead of a mob trial, that is all.

 

[PakSword]

But there never was a time when killing/punishing blasphemers was ordered by Allah almighty in the Holy Quran

Surah An-Nissah is a Medinian surah, in verse 140 of this surah, Allah tells Muslims not to sit in the company of blasphemers

Killing/punishing blasphemers wasn't ordered even in Medina . ... what's your point ?

My point is that prophet (PBUH) ordered to kill blasphemers..

It is good that you quoted a verse that orders us not to sit in the company of blasphemers... I will try my best to act on this verse

 

[M. Sarmad]

Got you..

So you are saying that there are categories of blasphemers. Which ones should be subjected to capital punishment?

Only those Blasphemers who, in addition to Blasphemy, are also guilty of "Fasad fil Arz" i. e. treason, waging war against Muslims etc.

 

[PakSword]

Only those Blasphemers who, in addition to Blasphemy, are also guilty of "Fasad fil Arz" i. e. treason, waging war against Muslims etc.

Really? and where is it written?

 

[M. Sarmad]

My point is that prophet (PBUH) ordered to kill blasphemers..

It is good that you quoted a verse that orders us not to sit in the company of blasphemers... I will try my best to act on this verse

And that exactly is what I was trying to say on that Bhensa thread .... We are ordered to avoid blasphemers .... We should avoid visiting such pages

Really? and where is it written?

That has been the position held by all great Hanafi scholars ... Only those blasphemers who are habitual offenders are guilty of spreading "fitnah" and therefore should be punished (for spreading fitnah) .... .Please read About it

 

[PakSword]

And that exactly is what I was trying to say on that Bhensa thread .... We are ordered to avoid blasphemers .... We should avoid visiting such pages

Yes, avoid their company.. But if they try to come in between you and mock the prophet (PBUH) then blasphemy law should be applied.

So again, my point is also the same.. Avoid there company... Don't go to their houses and sit with them so that you don't have to hear or see what they say.. But if they themselves come in between us and mock our prophet (PBUH) and our religion, then report police with all the witnesses.

Fasad fil Arz is when a wrong action spreads fitnah in society.. Not my concern what blasphemers do in their homes. But if they try to mock our prophet (PBUH) openly on social media, they have effectively initiated fasaad on land.... They should be sent to hell by the state...

Simple isn't it?

That has been the position held by all great Hanafi scholars ... Only those blasphemers who are habitual offenders are guilty of spreading "fitnah" and therefore should be punished (for spreading fitnah) .... .Please read About it

So you are saying that habitual blasphemers should be sent to hell.. I also agree..

What I disagree is that for me one time blasphemers, if they are able to spread fitnah (meaning they have openly committed the crime) should be sent to hell by the state...

One question @Azlan Haider

Since we have agreed that habitual blasphemers should be sent to hell.., what is your opinion on Bhensa Admin(s)?

Does he/ Do they come in the category of habitual or not?
Has he not/ Have they not spread fitnah or fasad fil ardh?

 

[M. Sarmad]

Yes, avoid their company.. But if they try to come in between you and mock the prophet (PBUH) then blasphemy law should be applied.

So again, my point is also the same.. Avoid there company... Don't go to their houses and sit with them so that you don't have to hear or see what they say.. But if they themselves come in between us and mock our prophet (PBUH) and our religion, then report police with all the witnesses.

Fasad fil Arz is when a wrong action spreads fitnah in society.. Not my concern what blasphemers do in their homes. But if they try to mock our prophet (PBUH) openly on social media, they have effectively initiated fasaad on land.... They should be sent to hell by the state...

Simple isn't it?

Blasphemy itself is not Fasad fil Arz .... Fasad fil Arz is clearly defined in the Holy Qur'an... Please consult Qur'an

And the Hanafi Position more or less has been that blasphemy itself is not "fitnah" until done repeatedly and with an intent to create unrest in a Muslim society

Also Pakistan Penal Code has a section related to Blasphemy (295 PPC ) .... And it accepts the Quranic principle of "Fasad fil Arz " (311 PPC) but it does not recognize/declare blasphemy as "Fasad fil Arz"


You are entitled to your opinion but until and unless you bring strong evidence from the Holy Quran (or even Sahih Hadith) to support your claim that blasphemy itself is Fasad, I can't accept it

Regards

One question @Azlan Haider

Since we have agreed that habitual blasphemers should be sent to hell.., what is your opinion on Bhensa Admin(s)?

Does he/ Do they come in the category of habitual or not?
Has he not/ Have they not spread fitnah or fasad fil ardh?

No, I personally believe that capital punishment is reserved for murderers and mufsideen ... Capital Punishment for blasphemy(alone) is in violation of Quranic injunctions

Any other form of punishment is okay

 

[PakSword]

Fasad fil Arz is clearly defined in the Holy Qur'an

And what is the definition?

You are entitled to your opinion but until and unless you bring strong evidence from the Holy Quran (or even Sahih Hadith) to support your claim that blasphemy itself is Fasad, I can't accept it

Aren't we moving away from the topic? Do sahih hadith suggest that blasphemers were ordered to be killed by prophet (PBUH)? Don't say something that takes us back to square one..

Any other form of punishment is okay

OK, at least you agree that it is punishable.

What about 500 lashes with full force?

 

[M. Sarmad]

And what is the definition?




Aren't we moving away from the topic? Do sahih hadith suggest that blasphemers were ordered to be killed by prophet (PBUH)? Don't say something that takes us back to square one..

As I said before, please read the Holy Quran and you won't be needing my opinion on what is (or isn't) Fasad Fil Arz

About Sahih Hadith, as I said before, there is no Sahih Hadith that categorically states that blasphemy itself is an offence punishable by death .... Blasphemy wasn't the only crime of those who were killed on the orders of Muhammad (pbuh)

 

[PakSword]

As I said before, please read the Holy Quran and you won't be needing my opinion on what is (or isn't) Fasad Fil Arz

Is it really difficult for you to refer me to clear definition of fasaad fil ardh?

About Sahih Hadith, as I said before, there is no Sahih Hadith that categorically states that blasphemy itself is an offence punishable by death .... Blasphemy wasn't the only crime of those who were killed on the orders of Muhammad (pbuh)

What was the crime of Kaab bin Ashraf?

 

[M. Sarmad]

OK, at least you agree that it is punishable.

What about 500 lashes with full force?

If necessary for maintaining public order and peace , Blasphemy can be criminalized as hate speech in any Muslim society ...

If you ask me, I would suggest life imprisonment or exile for habitual offenders .....

No penalty for non Muslims , or for single or isolated or first utterances of blasphemy

What was the crime of Kaab bin Ashraf?

Conspiring against Muslims and waging war against them ... I.e . Fasad fil Arz

 

[PakSword]

Conspiring against Muslims and waging war against them ... I.e . Fasad fil Arz

Then what is this?

Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!" Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

Al-Baqara 11-12...

If necessary to maintain public order and peace

So you also think that blasphemers actions create public disorder and are detrimental for peace?

No penalty for non Muslims

So Kaab Bin Ashraf was a Muslim..

 

[razgriz19]

Guys from bottom of my heart I defend blasphemy law but I think it should not be discussed on open forum like this due to following reasons :

1. Discussion means everyone has right to say anything which he has in his mind ,, there will be people with no understanding of Islam will start giving arguments ...
2. There might be person doing blasphamey here now ...
3. Devine law is law it can't be changed ...
4. I can bet there is not a single person qualified to discuss its implementation plus minus ...
5. Discussing here means creating doubts in the mind of people who do not have appropriate level of understanding of Islam ...

I request mods to delete this thread or restrict posting of this thread to knowledgeable persons only ...

regards,
Omair

And that's why it should be on open forum. First of all, it shouldn't even be in Pakistan. We are not a Sharia following fanatics. Pakistan has a huge minority populations and because of that all laws should be so that they are fair for every person.

Where ever these blasphemy incidents happen, do you seriously think that poor minority would say such things unless provoked by our angel hearted blessed Muslims??
No. The Muslims almost always provoke (in Pakistan) and force them to such situations and i won't be surprised they do this by cursing out their religion.
And i don't think anyone is qualified to discuss this unless you bring a prophet or a messenger back to earth and let them deal with it

 

[M. Sarmad]

Then what is this?

Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!" Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

Al-Baqara 11-12...



So you also think that blasphemers actions create public disorder and are detrimental for peace?




So Kaab Bin Ashraf was a Muslim..

1) The verse you quoted is for the likes of ISIS and TTP who are spreading Fasad on Allah's land in the name of Islam (the religion of peace)

2) Yes, there is nothing wrong in criminalizing hate speech

3) Those who wage war against Muslims and spread Fasad on Allah's land should be killed regardless of what religion they are ... Kaab was killed for Fasad, not blasphemy