The Awakening Sunni Giant (Recomended)

[FaujHistorian]

Can you give a source for this, afaik Houthis still maintain control over some parts of Yemen.

Oh Bhai Sahib,

Houthis live in an area similar to an agency in FATA.

They are left to their own devices as long as they keep their $hit inside their allocated area.

The problem BlackEagle is talking about, happened when the tribal Houthis tried to expand beyond the allocated area.


After the slapping by KSA army, they put their noses on the ground making long lines.

Asked for mercy

then went back to their old territory.


peace

 

[muse]

the best outcome would be a gradual change where KSA will become a constitutional monarchy somewhat similar to UK. Princes can become members of "House of Lords" ordinary bloaks can run the House of commons

And

the King becomes a symbolic head with all the pomp and show and circus to keep the common masses entertained.

How long will it take for Saudis to get to that wonderful land?

Not sure!

but the current trends point that way.

Well, there's a couple of things to consider first - The Legal framework in Arabia and in the UK is 180 of each other - in other words there is no legal framework to allow for such a transition and better still there is no political pressure towards that end.

See, The Constitutional Monarch is a mechanism that exists in a Democracy, with Democratic cultural values, not tribal and sectarian ones -- Now don't get me wrong, An Arabia free, where CITIZENS, not SUBJECTS, reside and by their free will choose or not how to live, what to do, what to watch, listen to,etc etc - would be excellent - but lets be real, to arrive at that, one has to reject tyranny, not just political but religious as well, one has to reject sectarianism - it's a cultural transformation.

Should the Arabian have that?? Well, when you are celebrating sectarian wars and takfir-ism, I would offer that such a transition is more than just fanciful.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Sorry you do not know me personally so do not try and pass judgement on me by calling me an Islamist. Just a few days ago you were playing the ummah card with Afghanis and chastising me for being harsh on them and now today I am an Islamist.

Actually I am surprised you are still here you always come off as a suicidal chap teetering on the edge.

Good day

Obviously.

When you spread conspiracy theories like an Islamist, well then you are one.


peace

p.s. The only thing I ask is to not trivialize and attack the Afghan refugees who are in Pakistan. This is on the basis of humanity and not some Islamist $hit. You should know me better.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

I am glad that the Muslims of the Middle East are finally getting to know each other. Maybe, in the meantime, we Christians can have some years of peace ......

But we do like Christians, they have been living among us in peace and harmony for 1400 years.

 

[KingMamba]

Yes I understand it - fortunately most Muslims live outside Arabia and this accounts for them being rational (at times, they are Muslims after all) As for the Wahabi, they are playing with fire, they come on this forum and say outrageous things, but at the end of the day, they know that all of this is a disguise to save Al-Brince's throne - so in a way, they think they don't have a choice, they are between a rock and hard place, to speak -- so they have to rationalize the only route left to them, they have to justify that route and the fact that they cannot and do not have options.

Incredibly they think this is evidence that they are in fact secure instea of realizing that daily they make themselves more insecure.

The majority of Saudis are good people who do not know half of whats going on when it comes to the foreign policy of their leadership. Understandably being that their state is flourishing you will not find many takers for overthrowing the monarchy but eventually like all kingdoms before them they will either transition into a constitutional monarchy or be overthrown by Saudis themselves. It may be a while though. To call Saudis irrational would be incorrect they are perhaps the most rational people in the whole middle east, left and right revolts are occurring around them yet they remain silent because they have rationally concluded that their monarchy is sufficient.

Houthis flourished again after he chaos in Yemen, it's not like Saudis obliterated them, they were just defeated.

Oh alright.

 

[muse]

The majority of Saudis are good people who do not know half of whats going on when it comes to the foreign policy of their leadership. Understandably being that their state is flourishing you will not find many takers for overthrowing the monarchy but eventually like all kingdoms before them they will either transition into a constitutional monarchy or be overthrown by Saudis themselves. It may be a while though. To call Saudis irrational would be incorrect they are perhaps the most rational people in the whole middle east, left and right revolts are occurring around them yet they remain silent because they have rationally concluded that their monarchy is sufficient.

Please make sense, please do please look up the economy - Please do attempt to explain why extremism has such appeal there -- See, as long as their response to their internal problems is to project them outward in a religious war, they are not going anywhere - Pakistan did exactly this and look at how Pakistan is doing --

I do understand that cultural transformation, or change in value systems is not an overnight thing - however, you are guaranteed to not have such a transition if you do not even advocate it, if you do not even hold it as an ideal to aspire to -- Why is Democracy so bad in Arabia but so good elsewhere??

Not irrational, sectarian wars are now rational? Please make sense

 

[KingMamba]

Please make sense, please do please look up the economy - Please do attempt to explain why extremism has such appeal there -- See, as long as their response to their internal problems is to project them outward in a religious war, they are not going anywhere - Pakistan did exactly this and look at how Pakistan is doing --

I do understand that cultural transformation, or change in value systems is not an overnight thing - however, you are guaranteed to not have such a transition if you do not even advocate it, if you do not even hold it as an ideal to aspire to -- Why is Democracy so bad in Arabia but so good elsewhere??

Not irrational, sectarian wars are now rational? Please make sense

I don't know if you have noticed or not but extremism is rampant all over the "Muslim world". I don't see why you would assume there would be any less or no extremists in KSA. Yes I know I am against their declaration of Jihad in Syria as well but do you think that is to cover up any internal woes? Imo it has more to do with limiting Iranian influence and is a political struggle. I don't think you should compare Pakistan to KSA.

I do not know what is bad about democracy in Arabia. I do not know why Saudis do not advocate it but since they do not I can only conclude things must be well enough that they do not see democracy as something better than what they have now.

I never said sectarian wars are rational do not assume I did, I said the Saudis must have rationally concluded that the monarch is good enough for them. Unless you have sources to mass protests in KSA that I do not know about that say otherwise?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Well, there's a couple of things to consider first - The Legal framework in Arabia and in the UK is 180 of each other - in other words there is no legal framework to allow for such a transition and better still there is no political pressure towards that end.

See, The Constitutional Monarch is a mechanism that exists in a Democracy, with Democratic cultural values, not tribal and sectarian ones -- Now don't get me wrong, An Arabia free, where CITIZENS, not SUBJECTS, reside and by their free will choose or not how to live, what to do, what to watch, listen to,etc etc - would be excellent - but lets be real, to arrive at that, one has to reject tyranny, not just political but religious as well, one has to reject sectarianism - it's a cultural transformation.

Should the Arabian have that?? Well, when you are celebrating sectarian wars and takfir-ism, I would offer that such a transition is more than just fanciful.

Obviously there is no one-to-one correlation.

I was talking about most "desirable" outcome based on personal discussions with many Saudi intellectuals.

Remember Magna Carta was the first document forced onto a King of England by a group of his subjects, the feudal barons, in an attempt to limit his powers by law and protect their privileges.

And when?

in the 1200s. and British population was around 3 million tops.


Just like Iranian King, the king of Saudi Arabia has two choices.

A) let the revolutionary forces topple the system (copy of French or Russian revolutions)

B) work with big name tribal lords (as has been done by Al-Saud for a century) to moved to the next level of "democratization". (copy of British and other EU monarchies).

So far I see the trend towards option B. But no guarantees.


peace

 

[muse]

Obviously there is no one-to-one correlation.

I was talking about most "desirable" outcome based on personal discussions with many Saudi intellectuals.


Just like Iranian King, the king of Saudi Arabia has two choices.

A) let the revolutionary forces topple the system (copy of French or Russian revolutions)

B) work with big name tribal lords (as has been done by Al-Saud for a century) to moved to the next level of "democratization". (copy of British and other EU monarchies).

So far I see the trend towards option B. But no guarantees.

peace

Indeed, do tell - what are these "trends"?

 

[TruthSeeker]

Angry mob kills at least 4 Shias in Giza village including leader

Zeinab El Gundy, Sunday 23 Jun 2013

An angry mob led by Salafist sheikhs torched and attacked houses of Shias in the small village of Zawya Abu Muslam in Giza governorate Sunday afternoon, killing four citizens including a prominent shia figure.

Not less than 3000 angry locals attacked houses of Shias in the village Sunday afternoon after weeks of incitement by Salafist preachers, according to eyewitnesses.

Five houses were set on fire during the attack. Police are evacuating the rest of Shiite homes in the village.

"For three weeks the Salafist sheikhs in the village have been attacking the Shias and accusing them of being infidels and spreading debauchery," Hazem Barakat, an eyewitness and photojournalist, told Ahram Online.

Barakat, who reported the incident live on Twitter, took photos and videos showing one of the Shias began dragged in the street after being beaten. "I saw several Shias stabbed several times while they were being dragged in some sort of public lynching," said Barakat.

At least four have been killed according to the head of the Giza security directorate. According to eyewitnesses, there are not less 30 Shias badly injured who have been transferred to hospital.

The death toll included 66-year-old Hassan Shehata, a prominent Shia figure who was jailed twice under former Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak for "contempt of religion."

The police force came late according to eyewitnesses and did nothing to stop the attack and public lynching. "They were just watching the public lynching like anyone else and did not stop anything," said Barakat.

"We hold President Morsi responsible for this attack," said Bahaa Anwar, a Shia activist. "There are not less than three million Egyptian Shiias who live in Egypt and last Saturday during the Syria solidarity conference attended by Morsi in the Cairo Stadium, Salafist sheikhs insulted Shias and incited hate against those Egyptian Shia citizens," said Anwar, adding that President Morsi did not refute these insults and incitement, though he claims to represent all Egyptians.

The outspoken Shia activist told Ahram Online that there are not less than 40 Shia families in Zawya Abu Muslam village. "Some of the families managed to leave while there are families who are still besieged in the village."

Anwar said that Shehata was visiting one of the Shia families in the village when the attack happened.

Salafist Islamist TV host Khaled Abdullah claimed that Hassan Shehata was attacked because he insulted the Prophet Mohamed's relatives, blaming Al-Azhar for being silent on Shias in Egypt hours after the attack on Al-Nas TV channel.

Angry mob kills at least 4 Shias in Giza village including leader - Politics - Egypt - Ahram Online

 

[FaujHistorian]

Indeed, do tell - what are these "trends"?

Option (B) in my post:


B) work with big name tribal lords (as has been done by Al-Saud for a century) to move to the next level of "democratization". (copy of British and other EU monarchies).


peace

 

[muse]

I don't know if you have noticed or not but extremism is rampant all over the "Muslim world". I don't see why you would assume there would be any less or no extremists in KSA. Yes I know I am against their declaration of Jihad in Syria as well but do you think that is to cover up any internal woes? Imo it has more to do with limiting Iranian influence and is a political struggle. I don't think you should compare Pakistan to KSA.

I do not know what is bad about democracy in Arabia. I do not know why Saudis do not advocate it but since they do not I can only conclude things must be well enough that they do not see democracy as something better than what they have now.

I never said sectarian wars are rational do not assume I did, I said the Saudis must have rationally concluded that the monarch is good enough for them. Unless you have sources to mass protests in KSA that I do not know about that say otherwise?

First we must hav an agreement the you will at a minimum, be honest, fair? OK, so now, what is the inspiration for the extremism that we see all over the Muslim world (for a clue refer to Wahabism/Salafism) -- Now I and I am sure you, will agree that where ever these movements are finding welcome, a colossal failure of governance and economy has preceded it -- fair? Now has a failure of governance and economy preceded extremist thought in Arabia?? If yes, then your suggestion about the excellent economy is open to challenge - and if no , how do you explain the popularity of extremist thought?? So how will you chose to respond to this??

 

[FaujHistorian]

First we must hav an agreement the you will at a minimum, be honest, fair? OK, so now, what is the inspiration for the extremism that we see all over the Muslim world (....

Bro,

First you ask everyone to be honest and fair.

Then you stoop down to one-sided analysis. That's not good. not honest.

FYI. Extremism results from blind followership of Arab Mullahs and Irani Ayatullahs.


This is not just salafi / Wahabi issue.


When UK Muslims living under oldest democracy can go mad because of this constant bull $Hit by Mullahs, then why to go looking for this "failure of government etc. "



Let's not pick up excuses.

Instead we must go after the root of all Islamist evils. the Mullah-$hit and Ayatullah-$hit.


We must denounce them 24 hours a day that their rabid propaganda "Islam Khatray main hai" (Islam is in danger) so "Islam kay Khatnay karo" (let's chop off Islamic countries).


If we don't do it, and lap up this Pan-Islamism (read Pan-chod-Islamism) $hit, we are bound to suffer from extremism.


It is that simple.


Separation of church and state, separation of Mullah and state, separation of Ayatullah $hit from state.

Unless we cleanse our mosques from politicians, and Mullah-turned-Politicians, we are stuck with extremism.


Sadly

 

[al-Hasani]

Nevermind.

 

[muse]

FYI. Extremism results from blind followership of Arab Mullahs and Irani Ayatullahs. This is not just salafi / Wahabi issue.

Instead we must go after the root of all Islamist evils. the Mullah-$hit and Ayatullah-$hit.
We must denounce them 24 hours a day that their rabid propaganda "Islam Khatray main hai" (Islam is in danger) so "Islam kay Khatnay karo" (let's chop off Islamic countries).
If we don't do it, and lap up this Pan-Islamism (read Pan-chod-Islamism) $hit, we are bound to suffer from extremism.

It is that simple.
Separation of church and state, separation of Mullah and state, separation of Ayatullah $hit from state.
Unless we cleanse our mosques from politicians, and Mullah-turned-Politicians, we are stuck with extremism.
Sadly

Here you are entirely mistaken, Certainly being blind as in irrational is to be avoided - however when speaking of extremism in all Muslim majority countries, and to not assert that whether in the North African case or Nigeria, the Inspiration is Wahabism/Salafism, or to not assert that in South Asia it is Wahabism/Salafism or that in Syria it is not Wahabism/Slafism, is simply being dishonest.

I would most certainly agree that Shiie groups such as hibzullah are certainly sectarian, however it is a difficult case to make that such groups are insistent that all convert to their sect or die.