The Angle We Often Miss - Pakistan Armed Forces are 1,140,000 Strong

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Hello Gentlemen,

Lets try to understand military on military forum

Pakistan Army is a gigantic institution - possess huge manpower (Solider/Private then mid tier Officers to all the way up to General/Boss). Total 1,140,000 Uniformed Men/Women.

So what should be obvious here?

Why should we not expect that they will not be having their own dynamics and internal rivalries within the structure/institution?

Why should we not expect that they would not be having their own certain view as a institution of outside forces/environment?

Thirdly, why should we not expect that there might not be some bad apples among their ranks, getting off the track?

And Lastly, like any other organization, they may be having success or failure when up to certain occasions/tasks?

My point is...THEY are absolutely natural when you look at them as an institution/organization, dedicated to perform certain duty. When criticizing them, we should not become oblivious to this

Some incidents happening (Army Chaps taking on Local LEA/Traffic Police Guy) does not mean that Army overall instructed them to do it or appreciated the event. Local Biases do play a part but overall Army as a whole should not be criticized.

Also recently, I observed a certain attitude among many members here in face of any bad news coming from certain parts Baluchistan/KP.

They start assuming that army is not doing anything or has let her guard down....Really? then why do we keep hearing news of TTP/separatist commanders getting killed too often recently? It is actually revenge and counter revenge going on....We are at semi-war.

Terrorist attacks are not happening in vacuum.....They are killing us and we are killing them. And we are more successful than them. The local Army Commander or LEAs might be facing difficulties in executing their strategies or one may slip when performing the duty but that doesn't mean whole Army has failed. The whole chain of command of Army has many humans involved and naturally everyone interprets situation differently.

We also don't have the access to confidential situation/info so we may not be able to have more informed opinion. I am sure our folks in army do introspect and evaluate the situation to their best of the ability and training.

If we civilians feel so much anger and sadness for our fallen soldiers then I am sure their brothers in arms will be slightly more saddened and angry than us. Though It is also heartening to see that our people and middle class do feel for our soldiers. That's proud thing for sure. Soldiers should always have our backs....

The point is what I notice about our military and establishment is that they have shown their willingness to learn and adapt in overall scheme of things. They have evolved just like us civilians unlike cunning politicians who think that they can simultaneous fool establishment and civilians alike at same time....

I believe Military-Middle Class Alliance is the way forward for Pakistan....Minus the politicians barring few honest ones.

Do you guys find it interesting that here on this forum, we may end up talking to serving or retired military personnel (though we don't know who is who here and who is serving or is retired) but it is amazing that we have at least a chance here on this forum that we may end up talking to a military - a alien profession for many of us.....Can we talk to politicians? Can we even talk them online and raise our concerns on anything? The answer is NO........

Ever think of that?

Photo from Website/Google​

Thank You.
A Middle Class Karachiite.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The Muslims are advised to be like soldiers in the KITAP. Remember, the most successful Muslim rulers were also very successful military commanders. Even Jinnah, who was a "civilian" to his core, led the most successful military expedition in Pak's history, which led to get hold of 35% of Kashmir and compelled Nehru to invoke the UN for a ceasefire....

The Pak Military leaders can be blamed for some grave mistakes with due reasons. And, I am pretty sure they are now at the fore front to get Pak out of the current quagmire....

 

[blain2]

Great post and exactly on point.

There are some who love to flog the army at each and every opportunity.

Then there are some who look at everything as glass half-full. One setback in Balochistan for them is the trigger to say Army has failed, Bajwa is useless, Kiyani is useless etc. etc. not realizing the long, hard and brutal slog the Army took on and came on top of in the FATA.

As to your point about "Military-Middle Class Alliance". I think there isn't even a need to call that out because today's armed forces have the middle/lower-middle class as their backbone.

Those who sometimes criticize the generals do not realize that the vast majority of these generals are from the very same lower-middle and middle classes. They are not a breed apart.

By the way I am not suggesting not to criticize, as that is needed too, but it should be fact based. We have a multipage discussion on some motorway police getting beaten up by someone who "claimed" they were military. Till this point, I have not seen anything conclusive either here on in any of our mainstream newspapers that suggests that indeed this was a military officer who abused his authority.

Again, after 2014, this is the first incident of such sort to have been reported. This clearly shows that military personnel are not a rowdy bunch, hell-bent on breaking the law.

Lastly, I don't know how many uniformed personnel are known by those who criticize the army here, perhaps their military relatives are involved in corruption and they know first-hand, but having been in a 3rd generation military family and having had 7 members in the army and one in the PAF, and one more on his way to become a commissioned officer, honestly I can speak to their integrity, decency and love for the country and this what gives me confidence in them and thus I take the stand that I do here.

There are some black sheep everywhere but our military on the whole is Alhamdolillah a force for good. It is comprised of people who are good, who love their country and they live a hard life. For the some who do corrupt things, there is a military justice system that works (while nothing is perfect) pretty well and I am sure there are some that get away with their corruption, but they cannot represent the majority.

 

[Last starfighter]

Thankyou
Please don't forget that220million soldiers stand in front of PA
IA

 

[Trango Towers]

Actually Pakistani military is 220 million total nutters.
Just a few of them get to wear a uniform.

 

[Last starfighter]

Actually Pakistani military is 220 million total nutters.
Just a few of them get to wear a uniform.

That's true

 

[S.Y.A]

Great post and exactly on point.

There are some who love to flog the army at each and every opportunity.

Then there are some who look at everything as glass half-full. One setback in Balochistan for them is the trigger to say Army has failed, Bajwa is useless, Kiyani is useless etc. etc. not realizing the long, hard and brutal slog the Army took on and came on top of in the FATA.

As to your point about "Military-Middle Class Alliance". I think there isn't even a need to call that out because today's armed forces have the middle/lower-middle class as their backbone.

Those who sometimes criticize the generals do not realize that the vast majority of these generals are from the very same lower-middle and middle classes. They are not a breed apart.

By the way I am not suggesting not to criticize, as that is needed too, but it should be fact based. We have a multipage discussion on some motorway police getting beaten up by someone who "claimed" they were military. Till this point, I have not seen anything conclusive either here on in any of our mainstream newspapers that suggests that indeed this was a military officer who abused his authority.

Again, after 2014, this is the first incident of such sort to have been reported. This clearly shows that military personnel are not a rowdy bunch, hell-bent on breaking the law.

Lastly, I don't know how many uniformed personnel are known by those who criticize the army here, perhaps their military relatives are involved in corruption and they know first-hand, but having been in a 3rd generation military family and having had 7 members in the army and one in the PAF, and one more on his way to become a commissioned officer, honestly I can speak to their integrity, decency and love for the country and this what gives me confidence in them and thus I take the stand that I do here.

There are some black sheep everywhere but our military on the whole is Alhamdolillah a force for good. It is comprised of people who are good, who love their country and they live a hard life. For the some who do corrupt things, there is a military justice system that works (while nothing is perfect) pretty well and I am sure there are some that get away with their corruption, but they cannot represent the majority.

The problem is that there is disconnect between people and the military. the training and culture inside the military may inculcate some ideas of superiority. Also, the DHA culture greatly harms the public face of it, e.g. even after protests in Karachi DHA, the dha authorities have not agreed to a transparent audit of the money it extorts from residents in the name of development when they arent even getting water supply (which they pay for btw).

 

[Bouncer]

Hello Gentlemen,

Lets try to understand military on military forum

Pakistan Army is a gigantic institution - possess huge manpower (Solider/Private then mid tier Officers to all the way up to General/Boss). Total 1,140,000 Uniformed Men/Women.

So what should be obvious here?

Why should we not expect that they will not be having their own dynamics and internal rivalries within the structure/institution?

Why should we not expect that they would not be having their own certain view as a institution of outside forces/environment?

Thirdly, why should we not expect that there might not be some bad apples among their ranks, getting off the track?

And Lastly, like any other organization, they may be having success or failure when up to certain occasions/tasks?

My point is...THEY are absolutely natural when you look at them as an institution/organization, dedicated to perform certain duty. When criticizing them, we should not become oblivious to this

Some incidents happening (Army Chaps taking on Local LEA/Traffic Police Guy) does not mean that Army overall instructed them to do it or appreciated the event. Local Biases do play a part but overall Army as a whole should not be criticized.

Also recently, I observed a certain attitude among many members here in face of any bad news coming from certain parts Baluchistan/KP.

They start assuming that army is not doing anything or has let her guard down....Really? then why do we keep hearing news of TTP/separatist commanders getting killed too often recently? It is actually revenge and counter revenge going on....We are at semi-war.

Terrorist attacks are not happening in vacuum.....They are killing us and we are killing them. And we are more successful than them. The local Army Commander or LEAs might be facing difficulties in executing their strategies or one may slip when performing the duty but that doesn't mean whole Army has failed. The whole chain of command of Army has many humans involved and naturally everyone interprets situation differently.

We also don't have the access to confidential situation/info so we may not be able to have more informed opinion. I am sure our folks in army do introspect and evaluate the situation to their best of the ability and training.

If we civilians feel so much anger and sadness for our fallen soldiers then I am sure their brothers in arms will be slightly more saddened and angry than us. Though It is also heartening to see that our people and middle class do feel for our soldiers. That's proud thing for sure. Soldiers should always have our backs....

The point is what I notice about our military and establishment is that they have shown their willingness to learn and adapt in overall scheme of things. They have evolved just like us civilians unlike cunning politicians who think that they can simultaneous fool establishment and civilians alike at same time....

I believe Military-Middle Class Alliance is the way forward for Pakistan....Minus the politicians barring few honest ones.

Do you guys find it interesting that here on this forum, we may end up talking to serving or retired military personnel (though we don't know who is who here and who is serving or is retired) but it is amazing that we have at least a chance here on this forum that we may end up talking to a military - a alien profession for many of us.....Can we talk to politicians? Can we even talk them online and raise our concerns on anything? The answer is NO........

Ever think of that?

Photo from Website/Google​

Thank You.
A Middle Class Karachiite.

Well articulated.

 

[SIPRA]

Hello Gentlemen,

Lets try to understand military on military forum

Pakistan Army is a gigantic institution - possess huge manpower (Solider/Private then mid tier Officers to all the way up to General/Boss). Total 1,140,000 Uniformed Men/Women.

So what should be obvious here?

Why should we not expect that they will not be having their own dynamics and internal rivalries within the structure/institution?

Why should we not expect that they would not be having their own certain view as a institution of outside forces/environment?

Thirdly, why should we not expect that there might not be some bad apples among their ranks, getting off the track?

And Lastly, like any other organization, they may be having success or failure when up to certain occasions/tasks?

My point is...THEY are absolutely natural when you look at them as an institution/organization, dedicated to perform certain duty. When criticizing them, we should not become oblivious to this

Some incidents happening (Army Chaps taking on Local LEA/Traffic Police Guy) does not mean that Army overall instructed them to do it or appreciated the event. Local Biases do play a part but overall Army as a whole should not be criticized.

Also recently, I observed a certain attitude among many members here in face of any bad news coming from certain parts Baluchistan/KP.

They start assuming that army is not doing anything or has let her guard down....Really? then why do we keep hearing news of TTP/separatist commanders getting killed too often recently? It is actually revenge and counter revenge going on....We are at semi-war.

Terrorist attacks are not happening in vacuum.....They are killing us and we are killing them. And we are more successful than them. The local Army Commander or LEAs might be facing difficulties in executing their strategies or one may slip when performing the duty but that doesn't mean whole Army has failed. The whole chain of command of Army has many humans involved and naturally everyone interprets situation differently.

We also don't have the access to confidential situation/info so we may not be able to have more informed opinion. I am sure our folks in army do introspect and evaluate the situation to their best of the ability and training.

If we civilians feel so much anger and sadness for our fallen soldiers then I am sure their brothers in arms will be slightly more saddened and angry than us. Though It is also heartening to see that our people and middle class do feel for our soldiers. That's proud thing for sure. Soldiers should always have our backs....

The point is what I notice about our military and establishment is that they have shown their willingness to learn and adapt in overall scheme of things. They have evolved just like us civilians unlike cunning politicians who think that they can simultaneous fool establishment and civilians alike at same time....

I believe Military-Middle Class Alliance is the way forward for Pakistan....Minus the politicians barring few honest ones.

Do you guys find it interesting that here on this forum, we may end up talking to serving or retired military personnel (though we don't know who is who here and who is serving or is retired) but it is amazing that we have at least a chance here on this forum that we may end up talking to a military - a alien profession for many of us.....Can we talk to politicians? Can we even talk them online and raise our concerns on anything? The answer is NO........

Ever think of that?

Photo from Website/Google​

Thank You.
A Middle Class Karachiite.

Great post. Realistic and to the point. Unfortunately, most of the Pakistanis are hyper-emotional. A great lot of them is also represented here on PDF. They wouldn't listen to any sane voice.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

I fully disagree with OP, Army is not Allah or Prophet that is above criticism, if we appreciate their efforts when we see its results so we are well within our rights to criticize them and their actions based on their failures, and its leadership. No one is taking personal Khunnus from a soldier who guard the check post or border post because he is victim as many of us in Pakistan, he is also brain washed into believing to follow the orders like its some revelation from Almighty, we have praised Army for the right reasons and now criticizing them for the right reasons as well.

I never said never criticize them....Do it but logically.

 

[Mr.Green]

Pakistan Army should metamorphasize from a nationalistic army to an ideological one.

 

[GumNaam]

The Muslims are advised to be like soldiers in the KITAP. Remember, the most successful Muslim rulers were also very successful military commanders. Even Jinnah, who was a "civilian" to his core, led the most successful military expedition in Pak's history, which led to get hold of 35% of Kashmir and compelled Nehru to invoke the UN for a ceasefire....

The Pak Military leaders can be blamed for some grave mistakes with due reasons. And, I am pretty sure they are now at the fore front to get Pak out of the current quagmire....

well said...

 

[Zarvan]

Hello Gentlemen,

Lets try to understand military on military forum

Pakistan Army is a gigantic institution - possess huge manpower (Solider/Private then mid tier Officers to all the way up to General/Boss). Total 1,140,000 Uniformed Men/Women.

So what should be obvious here?

Why should we not expect that they will not be having their own dynamics and internal rivalries within the structure/institution?

Why should we not expect that they would not be having their own certain view as a institution of outside forces/environment?

Thirdly, why should we not expect that there might not be some bad apples among their ranks, getting off the track?

And Lastly, like any other organization, they may be having success or failure when up to certain occasions/tasks?

My point is...THEY are absolutely natural when you look at them as an institution/organization, dedicated to perform certain duty. When criticizing them, we should not become oblivious to this

Some incidents happening (Army Chaps taking on Local LEA/Traffic Police Guy) does not mean that Army overall instructed them to do it or appreciated the event. Local Biases do play a part but overall Army as a whole should not be criticized.

Also recently, I observed a certain attitude among many members here in face of any bad news coming from certain parts Baluchistan/KP.

They start assuming that army is not doing anything or has let her guard down....Really? then why do we keep hearing news of TTP/separatist commanders getting killed too often recently? It is actually revenge and counter revenge going on....We are at semi-war.

Terrorist attacks are not happening in vacuum.....They are killing us and we are killing them. And we are more successful than them. The local Army Commander or LEAs might be facing difficulties in executing their strategies or one may slip when performing the duty but that doesn't mean whole Army has failed. The whole chain of command of Army has many humans involved and naturally everyone interprets situation differently.

We also don't have the access to confidential situation/info so we may not be able to have more informed opinion. I am sure our folks in army do introspect and evaluate the situation to their best of the ability and training.

If we civilians feel so much anger and sadness for our fallen soldiers then I am sure their brothers in arms will be slightly more saddened and angry than us. Though It is also heartening to see that our people and middle class do feel for our soldiers. That's proud thing for sure. Soldiers should always have our backs....

The point is what I notice about our military and establishment is that they have shown their willingness to learn and adapt in overall scheme of things. They have evolved just like us civilians unlike cunning politicians who think that they can simultaneous fool establishment and civilians alike at same time....

I believe Military-Middle Class Alliance is the way forward for Pakistan....Minus the politicians barring few honest ones.

Do you guys find it interesting that here on this forum, we may end up talking to serving or retired military personnel (though we don't know who is who here and who is serving or is retired) but it is amazing that we have at least a chance here on this forum that we may end up talking to a military - a alien profession for many of us.....Can we talk to politicians? Can we even talk them online and raise our concerns on anything? The answer is NO........

Ever think of that?

Photo from Website/Google​

Thank You.
A Middle Class Karachiite.

Most of these chaps who abuse or beat up Policeman or other Government officials often face trials and are fired from their jobs. Thing is Army has twisted logic of not announcing these. Every year few hundred of jawans and officers are fired from job for various wrong doings but public never comes to know about them. That is what causes damage to Army image. Secondly fighting is not the issue. The issue is mainly top leadership. They have many times played directly games and intervened. Nawaz and Bhutto clan are biggest gifts to this nation are of establishment.

 

[TNT]

Hello Gentlemen,

Lets try to understand military on military forum

Pakistan Army is a gigantic institution - possess huge manpower (Solider/Private then mid tier Officers to all the way up to General/Boss). Total 1,140,000 Uniformed Men/Women.

So what should be obvious here?

Why should we not expect that they will not be having their own dynamics and internal rivalries within the structure/institution?

Why should we not expect that they would not be having their own certain view as a institution of outside forces/environment?

Thirdly, why should we not expect that there might not be some bad apples among their ranks, getting off the track?

And Lastly, like any other organization, they may be having success or failure when up to certain occasions/tasks?

My point is...THEY are absolutely natural when you look at them as an institution/organization, dedicated to perform certain duty. When criticizing them, we should not become oblivious to this

Some incidents happening (Army Chaps taking on Local LEA/Traffic Police Guy) does not mean that Army overall instructed them to do it or appreciated the event. Local Biases do play a part but overall Army as a whole should not be criticized.

Also recently, I observed a certain attitude among many members here in face of any bad news coming from certain parts Baluchistan/KP.

They start assuming that army is not doing anything or has let her guard down....Really? then why do we keep hearing news of TTP/separatist commanders getting killed too often recently? It is actually revenge and counter revenge going on....We are at semi-war.

Terrorist attacks are not happening in vacuum.....They are killing us and we are killing them. And we are more successful than them. The local Army Commander or LEAs might be facing difficulties in executing their strategies or one may slip when performing the duty but that doesn't mean whole Army has failed. The whole chain of command of Army has many humans involved and naturally everyone interprets situation differently.

We also don't have the access to confidential situation/info so we may not be able to have more informed opinion. I am sure our folks in army do introspect and evaluate the situation to their best of the ability and training.

If we civilians feel so much anger and sadness for our fallen soldiers then I am sure their brothers in arms will be slightly more saddened and angry than us. Though It is also heartening to see that our people and middle class do feel for our soldiers. That's proud thing for sure. Soldiers should always have our backs....

The point is what I notice about our military and establishment is that they have shown their willingness to learn and adapt in overall scheme of things. They have evolved just like us civilians unlike cunning politicians who think that they can simultaneous fool establishment and civilians alike at same time....

I believe Military-Middle Class Alliance is the way forward for Pakistan....Minus the politicians barring few honest ones.

Do you guys find it interesting that here on this forum, we may end up talking to serving or retired military personnel (though we don't know who is who here and who is serving or is retired) but it is amazing that we have at least a chance here on this forum that we may end up talking to a military - a alien profession for many of us.....Can we talk to politicians? Can we even talk them online and raise our concerns on anything? The answer is NO........

Ever think of that?

Photo from Website/Google​

Thank You.
A Middle Class Karachiite.

Agree with u but few things u need to realize. Yes there are one off incidents of army guys beating LEAs but whats wrong is they never get punished, the army as an institution always sides with their guys even if they r wrong. This is wrong and this damages their reputation. In any other country, the army will distance itself from such individuals and let the civilians punish them harshly. Here the army thinks they r above civilians and would never let civilian courts or LEAs punish military guys for wrong doing. This gives the impression of a group or mafia that protects its members no matter what.
Secondly i dont know if u have visited politicians but they are mostly accessible, they always have gatherings in their place. Every politician have a hujra and its always full of public, everyone there to discuss problems. Its actually the bureaucracy that is inaccessible to the ppl and act like british raj. A BA pass AC or DC will have a vigo and act like a don. In reality this dipshit is a public servant n should act like one. The govt should take away their perks and power and make them answerable to the local ppl so they can serve the local ppl.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Agree with u but few things u need to realize. Yes there are one off incidents of army guys beating LEAs but whats wrong is they never get punished, the army as an institution always sides with their guys even if they r wrong. This is wrong and this damages their reputation. In any other country, the army will distance itself from such individuals and let the civilians punish them harshly. Here the army thinks they r above civilians and would never let civilian courts or LEAs punish military guys for wrong doing. This gives the impression of a group or mafia that protects its members no matter what.
Secondly i dont know if u have visited politicians but they are mostly accessible, they always have gatherings in their place. Every politician have a hujra and its always full of public, everyone there to discuss problems. Its actually the bureaucracy that is inaccessible to the ppl and act like british raj. A BA pass AC or DC will have a vigo and act like a don. In reality this dipshit is a public servant n should act like one. The govt should take away their perks and power and make them answerable to the local ppl so they can serve the local ppl.

Agree with you on Bureaucracy thing. Many consider them 'part of problem'