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The allegations on Supreme court and CJ are true

First of all when steel mill was privatized it was in profit not in loss. Secondly the land cost of steel mill was more than what was offered by the highest bidder. Thirdly as far as I know some procedural errors were committed during the sale of the steel mill. By the way steel mills sale was not challenged by ordinary person but by its former chairman who knew the steel mill better than any one else.

Now as far as case against general Musharaf is concerned constitution is very clear. As I stated before relevant articles of the constitution govern the election of the president. The verdict might have come against him that is why he reacted before verdict. Even after imposition of the emergency he still needs Supreme Courts clearance since the case went to the court before the imposition of the emergency.
 
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Hi,

When he was hearing the steel mill verdict the cj stated that Mittal was an indian---steel mill is a strategic asset---should not be sold to an indian who may destroy it------and hurt pakistan.

That told me a lot about the cj and how incompetent, mis-informed, out of touch and was trying to bring religion into the picture.

Mittal is one of the richest people in the world---he has raided many and bid on quite a few steel mills and owns a lot. He is a superstar business manager and owner, who is a true representative of world economy and whose only and only goal is to succeed at all costs. Just to think and state that Mittal being indian will bring loss to the steel mill was sheer stupidity on the part of the cj.

Mittal is a winner by nature. Every thing that he puts his hands on, he wants that project to be very very successful regardless of race, religion, color, creed or nationality. I guess that the cj just took it upon himself to make that decision or he was given very poor advice.

It was really stupid of the cj to make that decision which meant that Mittal would want to show afailure on his resume---the failure being pakistan steel mill----he would have to answer the investors as to how he could bring his petty dispute of pakistan / india into the corpotrate world----cj just could not understand the nature of being successful at all cost----bringing disrepute to his successes---disregarding national boundries-----the cj's lack of corporate understanding showed up real quick.

Chief Justice Iftikhar---I had a lots of respect for you----I stood by you in my mind when you had the case against you----not any more----you had the oppurtunity to build the justice system in pakistan and you failed by sticking you nose in issues that should have been left with the federales.
 
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Niaz you very well know the Dictatorship is ploting against Pakistan, the cases the Supreme coart fought was for justice, and may I remind you that thousands of people marched with the CJ to be re-instated and to day thousands are denayed to march against Musharraf atocratic rule.

I know you are a pro Zia-era man, however, things have changed the people of Pakistan are fed up of dictatorships, and the Army is fed up being very unpopular because of these dictatorships.

The day Musharraf asks the Army to come on the streets thats the day there will be coup, I am sure of it and this one will probably be the first bloody coup.


Hon Interceptor,

Regret to say that you are being presumptuous. I was doing very well in Esso and happy living in Pakistan until ZA Bhutto starting nationalizing every thing, thereby killing off entrepreneurship in Pakistan and I decided to seek a job with the Kuwait National Petroleum Company in 1976. I am a democrat and despite all his faults I admit that ZAB was one of the most intelligent leaders Pakistan ever had. If you care to read any of my posts you will note that I am not a pro Zia era man. Actually IMO Zia was the worst thing that happened to Pakistan. Even though I dont like ZAB, he was dictatorial as any one despite being a civilian; I condemn his execution on the grounds that it is shameful to hang your Prime Minister.

I have no political affiliations and I try to look at things dispassionately. I still have a deep love for my motherland ( once a Pakistani, always a Pakistani) and am greatly disturbed whenever Pakistan is in turmoil. How can you make the statement what people of Pakistan want, you are one man, I have not seen mass protests as I witnessed in 1976 when ZAB was blamed for rigging the elections.

I also believe that politics is not a game of black and white. It is a game of power. Thus one should always look at the ground realities before one judges any action of the Executive, the Opposition, the Media and the Judiciary.

Let me repeat the situation as it was only a couple of weeks ago. Mushy had promised to hold the elections on schedule and shed the uniform if elected.
He passed the NRO, thereby allowing BB to come back. It was expected that PPP, having gotten more votes than any other party in the last election;
will be the largest party in next election as well and will form the government. Pakistan was on path to proper civilian democratic rule.

Pray tell me what is wrong with that.

What happenes; a PPP lawyer ( Aitzaz Hassan) tried to get Musharraf disqualified on behalf of the candidate who only got 3 votes! NRO was swiftly " Stayed" by the Supreme Court and all indications were that Mushy will be disqualified.

As I mentioned that it is not a matter of "Gunah" or "Thawab" as laid down by Allah and thus cannot be changed. Sheer common sense demanded that no action should be taken which disturbs the transition to democracy.

Our Judiciary on the other hand, saw themselves as arbitrators of power and now we have all the signs that Pakistan is back to Oct 99 position. Pray tell me what benefits are we getting thru this mess? Wouldnt it have been better to let the process go on? Isn't benefit of the common man and peace in
the country ultimate aim?

Hon Interceptor, no matter how much we prove or disprove that Mushy is an evil man and BB is an angel of virtue; it doesnt change what is happening in Pakistan. As a Pakistani, I therfore put a large part of the blame on the judicial activism regardless of the finer points of the law. Who gets hurt by the strikes and downturn in the economy; joe public and Pakistan; not the politicians or you and me.

I rest my case.
 
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Hi,

When he was hearing the steel mill verdict the cj stated that Mittal was an indian---steel mill is a strategic asset---should not be sold to an indian who may destroy it------and hurt pakistan.

:rofl: Really?

Mittal goes out of his way to deny his links to India, and the pathetic Indian press keeps trying to claim him as an Indian success story. Fact is, he left India several years ago and never looked back. His business is based in Europe and has little to do with India.
 
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If any lawyer or Lawyers are here on the forum than i would request them to debate this issue with arguments with reference to the law and constitution and i m all willing to debate with them otherwise even valid points go wast here due to personal and BS remarks by some withouting supplimenting their points with law references.

So iam till now avoiding to debate if any Lawyer is here please do come forward :)
 
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If any lawyer or Lawyers are here on the forum than i would request them to debate this issue with arguments with reference to the law and constitution and i m all willing to debate with them otherwise even valid points go wast here due to personal and BS remarks by some withouting supplimenting their points with law references.

So iam till now avoiding to debate if any Lawyer is here please do come forward :)

Do tell me how the military overthrow of the NS govt was legal?
 
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Do tell me how the military overthrow of the NS govt was legal?


Who said it was legal ??
does NS tried to remain in the country and fight his case ????


Does he had the courage not run-away and make deal with millitary for sheltering in Saudi Arabia ??

Well he did not how can he have the moral ground being a politician to question the legality of the action .
 
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My letter to Telegraph India

Sir,



It was interesting to read Letters to the Editor lamenting the demise of demise of democracy in Pakistan .



One wonders if one is aware that there has never been a real democracy in Pakistan .


The Pakistan movement was based on the theory that the Muslims of India were a nation.


Those not 'fashionable' and with a short memory will recall that the country's founder and first Governor-General, Mohammad Ali Jinnah started the murder of democracy which has hounded Pakistan ever since. He dismissed the Congress-led government of the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) by decree, and instead of ordering fresh elections, appointed a Muslim League leader as the chief minister with the mandate to whip up parliamentary support for himself.


Thereafter following the leader, the Governor-General Ghulam Mohammad, a former bureaucrat, dismissed the country's first civilian government in 1953. Governor-Generals, Presidents and army chiefs have dismissed as many as ten civilian governments that together ruled the country for 27 years. The remaining 33 years have seen direct military rule.


It maybe noted that Pakistan was without a formal, written constitution until 1956. The democratic myths that so often sustain a system were thus only weakly instilled, and precedents were created that undermined those few parliamentary and democratic norms that could be drawn upon. It did not help that in the early years non-party prime ministers were appointed by the head of state rather than by those who had to appeal to an electorate.


In so far as the ‘heroic’ Chief Justice Chaudhry Iftikhar Ahmed is concerned, it is worth noting whether a nine-judge bench headed by him can be "stunned" that the government in August 2006 by scrapping the privatisation of the Pakistan Steel Mills, was an act that sold it in "indecent haste". Since when has the Supreme Court started deciding how govts should conduct normal business of State? Interestingly, I believe, Mittal was the highest bidder! So, is the Chief Justice is also the sole custodian of Pakistan ’s economy and ‘security’?! What is the government there for? The Chief Justice has reduced himself to nothing better than a political hack, chasing personal glory!


From the internet and even from Musahrraf's book, it is amply evident that even in Pakistan's 'democratic" hiccups, the shadowy arm of the military was never far as the final arbiter!


Hardly, a democratic precedent to rave or lament about!


The Indian lament on Pakistan ’s democracy and the ‘heroic’ Chief Justice, if I may say so, is misplaced, even though very fashionable!


Compare these lotus eaters with Musharraf.


Musharraf is no bosom friend of India . He cannot be. He is a Pakistani and he has the chip on his shoulder as a Mohajir, who in any way are still treated as ‘outsiders’. Even though he has to show that he is more loyal to the King than the King himself, he has been the co-partner in building bridges with India , which no other Pakistan “democratic” leader or military martinet has done! From the Pakistani point of view, he has salvaged Pakistan from being a ‘failed state’ with an economy scraping the bottom of the barrel to where Pakistan is! And he has controlled militancy to a great extent - feat that is an impossibility in the wave of Pan Islamic ummah post 9/11.


Given the recent events of Lal Mazjid, killing of the Chinese engineers, revolt by the military to fight the Taliban in NWFP, the total chaos in the Swat Valley, regular bomb blasts including near the Presidential area, total turmoil created by the Chief Justice and his lawyer goons, what option did he have?


Does India want Benazir, the corrupt individual who has only personal interest or the ineffectual Nawaz Sharif, who claimed that the military alone created the Kargil War?


It is immaterial if Armitage calls Benazir, “ America ’s girl”. She is no one’s girl excepting Mr 10 per cent’s!
And Nawaz Sharif is too much of a wimp. Imran Khan is but the Anglicised voice of Osama!

BTW,Stealth, how doe sit affect you if the Indian media praises Mital? He still holds an Indian Passport.

BTW Congratulations for winning the Mohali Test. A brilliant win and very well deserved!.
 
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Who said it was legal ??
does NS tried to remain in the country and fight his case ????


Does he had the courage not run-away and make deal with millitary for sheltering in Saudi Arabia ??

Well he did not how can he have the moral ground being a politician to question the legality of the action .

Dear Jana,

Can you post me judgements passed by the ex CJ which were both contrary to your constitution as well as bad for Pakistan ? Some links to would help.

Regards
 
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Excerpts from an article on how the West sees the situation of the CJ

Lawyers: Pakistan political conscience - Yahoo! News

Lawyers: Pakistan political conscience

By MATTHEW PENNINGTON, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 31 minutes ago

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Thousands of black-suited lawyers facing police batons and tear gas to protest the declaration of emergency rule have become Pakistan's political conscience.

Enraged by President Pervez Musharraf's assault on independent judges, the legal community has eclipsed discredited opposition parties as the torchbearers for democracy.

In his emergency declaration, Musharraf, a key U.S. ally against al-Qaida and the Taliban, accused the judiciary of hindering his government in fighting terrorism. He has also said the emergency was necessary to maintain political stability and preserve progress toward restoring full democracy. The common view in Pakistan, however, is that it was a bald attempt to prolong his eight-year rule.

The nation's revered founder, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, was one of the subcontinent's most famed lawyers. But Pakistan's top judges have often acted cravenly, endorsing military takeovers, and the legal system is widely perceived as corrupt and dysfunctional, and its lawyers untrustworthy.

In one notable example, Chaudhry started pushing the government to disclose the whereabouts of 485 Pakistanis secretly detained by intelligence agencies on suspicion of involvement in terrorism or ethnic nationalist movements and held for months or years without charge.

The political opposition leaders, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, inspire less public confidence. Both style themselves as fighters for democracy against dictatorship, but their records during a decade of volatile civilian rule between 1988 and 1999 were spotty.
 
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Hi Niaz,

Thank you for your post. It was thought provoking.
 
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My letter to Telegraph India



BTW,Stealth, how doe sit affect you if the Indian media praises Mital? He still holds an Indian Passport.

BTW Congratulations for winning the Mohali Test. A brilliant win and very well deserved!.

Hon Salim,

Your letter to the Indian Telegraph as quoted has said something about Quadi- e- Azam. Let me clarify a few points.

This is correct that the Quaid dismissed Red Shirts government in the NWFP and appointed Abdul Qayyum Khan as the Provencial Chief Minister. This act may appear undemocratic but looking at it from a different perspective it is not.

There was a referendum in NWFP under the British and people overwhelmingly voted for Pakistan. Red Shirts or Khudai Khidmatgar government was " Unionist" and didnot support creation of Pakistan. Bacha Khan was even beaten up as being anti-Muslim and this was before the partition. Therefore the statement that Mohammed Ali Jinnah started the murder of democracy is not true.

Dr Khan Sahib, elder brother of Bacha Khan had been Chief Minister for NWFP for nearly twenty years by then and no election had taken place to indicate that they had a fresh mandate from the people of NWFP. Circumstances had changed after the independence. The main point to consider is:

Would a newly created country allow a gov't against Pakistan's ideology exist in one of the provinces, specially after only a short time earlier people of NWFP had voted to be part of Pakistan 9 to 1 in favour???

This is no different to India's police action in Hyderabad, Junagadh and subsequently the Goa. Would you call India murdering democracy??

IMO; Quaid's action was a must for Pakistan to survive as a State. Only on one account criticism of the Quaid is justified. That is the imposition of Urdu language on the whole of Pakistan. The intention was noble; to unify the two wings. However, this was cause of great resentment in East Pakistan (Bangla Desh) and resulted in language riots a little later. This only proves that the great Quaid was a man and therefore not infallible.

Secondly, to say that Pakistan didnot have constitution until 1956 has no bearing on democracy. Britain does not have any written constitution to this day, yet there exists the mother of all parliaments.

Thirdly, the case you are referring to with Ghaulam Mohammed concerned the dissolution of Parliament. The Speaker, Maulvi Tamizudding Khan appealed to the Supreme Court and then Chief Justice Mohammad Munir ( second Chief Justice of Pakistan) dismissed the petition due to the "law of necessity".

Finally, CJ Iftikhar Chaudhry had no hesitation in taking oath under the PCO in 1999 as Chief Justice of the Baluchistan High Court. The new assembly elected Musharraf as President in uniform for 5 years in 2002 and Justice Chaudhry as a justice of the Supreme Court had no hesitation in validating this. It was not until the Steel Mill case when Justice Chaudhry, now CJ went against the government. The accolade he received in the media must have gone to his head because since then we see the Judicial Activism gone berserk.

However, I salute you for a very well written article. My comments are only meant to give a view from a different angle.
 
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Hon Salim,

Your letter to the Indian Telegraph as quoted has said something about Quadi- e- Azam. Let me clarify a few points.

This is correct that the Quaid dismissed Red Shirts government in the NWFP and appointed Abdul Qayyum Khan as the Provencial Chief Minister. This act may appear undemocratic but looking at it from a different perspective it is not.

There was a referendum is NWFP under the British and people overwhelmingly voted for Pakistan. Red Shirts or Khudai Khidmatgar government was " Unionist" and didnot support creation of Pakistan. Bacha Khan was even beaten up as being anti-Muslim and this was before the partition. Therefore the statement that Mohammed Ali Jinnah started the murder of democracy is not true.

Dr Khan Sahib, elder brother of Bacha Khan had been Chief Minister for NWFP for nearly twenty years by then and no election had taken place to indicate that they had a fresh mandate from the people of NWFP. Circumstances had changed after the independence. The main point to consider is:

Would a newly created country allow a gov't against Pakistan's ideology exist in one of the provinces, specially after only a short time earlier people of NWFP had voted to be part of Pakistan 9 to 1 in favour???

This is no different to India's police action in Hyderabad, Junagadh and subsequently the Goa. Would you call India murdering democracy??

IMO; Quaid's action was a must for Pakistan to survive as a State. Only on one account criticism of the Quaid is justified. That is the imposition of Urdu language on the whole of Pakistan. The intention was noble; to unify the two wings. However, this was cause of great resentment in East Pakistan (Bangla Desh) and resulted in language riots a little later. This only proves that the great Quaid was a man and therefore not infallible.

Secondly, to say that Pakistan didnot have constitution until 1956 has no bearing on democracy. Britain does not have any written constitution to this day, yet there exists the mother of all parliaments.

Thirdly, the case you are referring to with Ghaulam Mohammed concerned the dissolution of Parliament. The Speaker, Maulvi Tamizudding Khan appealed to the Supreme Court and then Chief Justice Mohammad Munir ( second Chief Justice of Pakistan) dismissed the petition due to the "law of necessity".

Finally, CJ Iftikhar Chaudhry had no hesitation in taking oath under the PCO in 1999 as Chief Justice of the Baluchistan High Court. The new assembly elected Musharraf as President in uniform for 5 years in 2002 and Justice Chaudhry as a justice of the Supreme Court had no hesitation in validating this. It was not until the Steel Mill case when Justice Chaudhry, now CJ went against the government. The accolade he received in the media must have gone to his head because since then we see the Judicial Activism gone berserk.

However, I salute you for a very well written article. My comments are only meant to give a view from a different angle.



Salute to you Sir Niaz.
I would suggest you should write the same to Indian Telegraph in response to the letter of Sir Ray. Let see if they publish it as we here in Pakistan even publish letters to editors from Indians opposing Kashmir issue and we even publish it against Pakistan without any editing.



Sir Abdul Qayum was the Best Thing Ever Happend to NWFP.
We have the best Education Institutes Due to him.
 
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Who said it was legal ??.

So you agree it was totally illegal for mushy to overthrow NS.

does NS tried to remain in the country and fight his case .

Yes he did...until he was put under pressure...either leave the country or face the death penalty.


Does he had the courage not run-away and make deal with millitary for sheltering in Saudi Arabia ??.

Did he not try to return and was forced back on the plane.

Well he did not how can he have the moral ground being a politician to question the legality of the action .

Yes but mushy can break the oath he took and overthrow the govt but somehow in your mind he is the one with the moral authority....stop making me laugh.
 
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