The 1965 Indo-Pak war

[Su 30mki]

Some people never end with excuses..........

 

[luoshan]

IAF was not in favour of 1965 ceasefire: Arjan Singh

By Ritu Sharma

On the 43rd anniversary of the war with Pakistan, Arjan Singh, the only Marshal of the Air Force, who led the Indian Air Force (IAF) during that conflict, rues that the war was too "short" and the IAF was not in favour of a ceasefire.

Singh, one of the first few pilots in independent India, is the first and the only IAF chief to be adorned with the rank of 'Marshal of the Air Force', the only 'five-star' officer in India currently.

"When ceasefire came, IAF was not in its favour as the IAF had consumed only 8-9 percent of its resources. The war was too short," Singh reminisced in an exclusive interview with IANS. Singh became IAF chief in 1964 at the age of 44 years.

The 91-year-old Singh, who was awarded the rank in 2002, also feels that the IAF's resources were not fully utilized.

"I feel in the hindsight that had the IAF known that the war was going to be short it could have used the resources in a bigger way," said Singh.

The Pakistan Army's incursions in India culminated on Sep 1, 1965, in a massive attack in the Chhamb sector (Jammu and Kashmir) by the Pakistan forces. The IAF finally joined the conflict on Sep 6 with a full-blown war breaking out on the western frontier of India.

The Pakistani incursions in Jammu and Kashmir continued for about a month till the ceasefire was effected under the aegis of the UN Security Council on Sep 23, 1965.

Singh, his memory still razor sharp for his age, says that the IAF, after starting off at a disadvantage, soon gained advantage over the Pakistan Air Force.

"We had an impression that the Pakistan Air Force was better equipped as it had air-to-air missiles, Sabre fighter aircraft and better radars than us. On the other hand our Gnat aircraft had short reach and were smaller," Singh said sitting stiffly for a man of his age.

He added that Gnat was not famous before and nobody liked to fly it, as it was difficult to fly and did not give any scope of error.

"But as the war progressed the Gnat shot down two Sabre aircraft, boosting our morale. Its small size was also a good advantage because it could not be seen properly on radar," Singh said proudly.

The IAF was used for the first time in the history of independent India in the 1965 India-Pakistan war. This gave important war lessons that came handy to secure a victory in the 1971 India-Pakistan war, which was won on the strategic use of the IAF.

Close air support missions of the IAF in the Gujranwala sector, in the Sialkot-Lahore-Ferozepur axis and in the Khemkaran Kasur sector in Pakistan, contributed to the destruction of 300 Patton tanks of Pakistan.

"We had planned for a three-month war. Our strategy was to attack Pakistan's rail and communications and at the same time stopping Pakistan Air Force from attacking our bases and operation areas. We wanted to surround Lahore and not capture it as it would have been difficult to sustain," Singh said.

Eventually it was the "failure of communication links" that forced the Pakistan Army to retreat.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

@Growler: Still awaiting your backup to the claim the India had 10:1 numerical advantage over Pakistan in 1965. Also, you claimed that India had 1000 combat jets without backing it up. Link to any reliable web source will be appreciated.
I never claimed India stationed 2/3 of fleet on Chinese border. You made up that number.

i was merely stating facts about PAF being technical inferior and 10-1 numerically. how about a deal.. in return i dont want to see you here for next 2 weeks if i prove these facts..


Pakdef.info
100 F-86

The story of Pakistani F-86 starts when in 1955 US sold 120 of F-86-F40s to Pakistan Air Force. PAF had eight squadrons of F-86Fs on its order of battle which formed squadron no 5. 11, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 making up a total of about 100 operational airctaft. of these 100 aircraft, 25 were equipped with Sidewinder air-to-air missiles.

10 F-104

Sqn Ldr Sadruddin and Flt Lt Middlecoat landed the first Starfighters at PAF Base Sargodha in 1962. In the following months, Pakistan inducted a total of 10 F-104A and two dual seat F-104B training aircraft in No 9 Squadron.

22 B-57

After the 1955 Pak-US agreement, the PAF received 26 Martin B-57s including 2 training versions, which formed two squadrons, Nos. 7 and 8, of No 31 Bomber Wing on 11 May 1960.

PAF's B-57 force remained committed to the night attack of Indian airfields as its principal task throughout the war. Its meagre force of 22 aircraft undertook a total of 195 missions delivering more than 600 tons of bombs as compared to an estimated 92 night bombing sorties against PAF targets by more than 60 IAF Canberras.

what a technical world class super duper fleet only defeatable in the hands of "technical inferior" IAF yet very deadly?
so sad to know your country taught you to believe PAF had tremendous advantages over IAF, especially in high-technology weapons and systems....

so thats 132 fighter/bombers for PAF in 1965...

i cant find IAF inventory list from bharat-raksak but IAF easily operated 1000 fighter/bombers in 1965..





but then again... what a sight to be proud of.. a technical and numerical inferior PAF made IAF on the RUN!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Indians here on this forum are so pathetic.. i have given enough non pakistani source while they keep posting BS written by some indian pathological liars.
brain washed..

 

[luoshan]

i was merely stating facts about PAF being technical inferior and 10-1 numerically. how about a deal.. in return i dont want to see you here for next 2 weeks if i prove these facts..


Pakdef.info
100 F-86

10 F-104

22 B-57



what a technical world class super duper fleet only defeatable in the hands of "technical inferior" IAF yet very deadly?
so sad to know your country taught you to believe PAF had tremendous advantages over IAF, especially in high-technology weapons and systems....

so thats 132 fighter/bombers for PAF in 1965...

i cant find IAF inventory list from bharat-raksak but IAF easily operated 1000 fighter/bombers in 1965..


but then again... what a sight to be proud of.. a technical and numerical inferior PAF made IAF on the RUN!

Thanks Growler. But you have still not backed up your 'FACTS' with suitable/reliable links. I would greatly appreciate if you could provide me with reliable information about the exact inventory of the PAF and IAF before the start of 1965 war. Especially the inventory list showing 1000 combat aircraft in IAF. I searched for it everywhere and couldn't find it. If you could send me the links, that would be truely awesome

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Thanks Growler. But you have still not backed up your 'FACTS' with suitable/reliable links. I would greatly appreciate if you could provide me with reliable information about the exact inventory of the PAF and IAF before the start of 1965 war. Especially the inventory list showing 1000 combat aircraft in IAF. I searched for it everywhere and couldn't find it. If you could send me the links, that would be truely awesome

You are pathologically deluded.
you clearly lack comprehension of any subject.
you are jabbering same BS over and over again.
You can not digest the reality.

i have clearly stated my source which is "pakdef.info" and got the result. i do not know why would PAF lie about its 1965 inventory of 100 operational F-86, 10 F-104 and 22 B-57.

looks like you are not going to sleep tonight.

its not going to be long enough before i shut you mouth again with proving IAF operated 1000 combat planes..

 

[arihant]

You are pathologically deluded.
you clearly lack comprehension of any subject.
you are jabbering same BS over and over again.
You can not digest the reality.

i have clearly stated my source which is "pakdef.info" and got the result. i do not know why would PAF lie about its 1965 inventory of 100 operational F-86, 10 F-104 and 22 B-57.

looks like you are not going to sleep tonight.

its not going to be long enough before i shut you mouth again with proving IAF operated 1000 combat planes..

Currently India is having 850 Combat planes and you mean that India was having 1000 in 1965 war. Bravo...

 

[luoshan]

You are pathologically deluded.
you clearly lack comprehension of any subject.
you are jabbering same BS over and over again.
You can not digest the reality.

i have clearly stated my source which is "pakdef.info" and got the result. i do not know why would PAF lie about its 1965 inventory of 100 operational F-86, 10 F-104 and 22 B-57.

looks like you are not going to sleep tonight.

its not going to be long enough before i shut you mouth again with proving IAF operated 1000 combat planes..

You have still not given the "link" to the reliable/neutral information on inventory list of PAF. What you have given is a source to a vague writeup. Are you sure the so called list contains all the PAF assets? Are you sure you have not missed out anything?
There are a few discripencies in your source. It says 120 F-86 delivered. Then it says 100 in the inventory. Also, says 8 squadrons of F-86 meaning 8x20 =160 Sabres??. Also, your "source" says 26 B-57's delivered, but only 22 in the inventory.
You still have to backup your claims of 1000 combat aircrafts in IAF..

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Currently India is having 850 Combat planes and you mean that India was having 1000 in 1965 war. Bravo...

yes india was having 1000 combat planes in 1965 war because it was having to have combat planes at cheaper price... just like USAF did back in the days when it was having 6-7000 plus planes... and now today they only have 1/3rd of that.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

You have still not given the "link" to the reliable/neutral information on inventory list of PAF. What you have given is a source to a vague writeup. Are you sure the so called list contains all the PAF assets? There are a few discripencies in your source. It says 120 F-86 delivered. Then it says 100 in the inventory. Also, says 8 squadrons of F-86 meaning 8x20 =160 Sabres??. Also, your "source" says 26 B-57's delivered, but only 22 in the inventory.
You still have to backup your claims of 1000 combat aircrafts in IAF..

are really that dumb? you can not even comprehend!

120 F-86 delivered YES.. 20 were used as spares, or canalization.. (please dont ask me if our F-86 were literally eating each other.)
leaving only 100 F-86s.
i do not know where you got 20 planes per squadron but back in the days PAF maintained 12-13 planes per squadron just like with the F-104.. now you are gonna tell me that since PAF operated one squadron they must have had 20 F-104s?
26 B-57s were delivered in 1950s.. yes.. in time span of 6-8 years about 4 of them crashed... now do the maths please.

you are funny guy btw..

just give me some time.. i will also pull out IAF inventory data.
so hold on

 

[luoshan]

yes india was having 1000 combat planes in 1965 war because it was having to have combat planes at cheaper price... just like USAF did back in the days when it was having 6-7000 plus planes... and now today they only have 1/3rd of that.

Hmm... You have wonderful logic. So you claim India had 1000 combat aircrafts because they were cheaper to buy then.
Miss those good old days when everything was soo cheap, that a economically basket case country like in India in 1960's could afford 1000 combat aircraft.
I would prefer you give solid proof for the 1000 combat aircraft claim.

 

[luoshan]

are really that dumb? you can not even comprehend!

120 F-86 delivered YES.. 20 were used as spares, or canalization.. (please dont ask me if our F-86 were literally eating each other.)
leaving only 100 F-86s.
i do not know where you got 20 planes per squadron but back in the days PAF maintained 12-13 planes per squadron just like with the F-104.. now you are gonna tell me that since PAF operated one squadron they must have had 20 F-104s?
26 B-57s were delivered in 1950s.. yes.. in time span of 6-8 years about 4 of them crashed... now do the maths please.

you are funny guy btw..

just give me some time.. i will also pull out IAF inventory data.
so hold on

Yeah man. I'm not as smart as you. Want to learn from you though
Looks like you are just making up the stories about spares/canibalization/crashes as you go along. Would prefer some reliable source to backup all your claims. Otherwise whatever you say is just ...

you are funny guy btw..

Thanks for the compliment.. You seem to be a jolly guy too ...

Still waiting for the source of the magic number 1000.. cheers

 

[arihant]

Yeah man. I'm not as smart as you. Want to learn from you though
Looks like you are just making up the stories about spares/canibalization/crashes as you go along. Would prefer some reliable source to backup all your claims. Otherwise its just ...
Thanks for the compliment.. You seem to be a jolly guy too ...

Still waiting for the source of the magic number 1000.. cheers

Don't waste time in getting 1000 combat source. He is currently busy in making the story on some site then he will come to you.

As far other things are concern, you keep getting unknown stats from our PK Friends. They claim that they won in 1965 and 1999 while we claim that they got defeat in their objective.

 

[luoshan]

Don't waste time in getting 1000 combat source. He is currently busy in making the story on some site then he will come to you.

As far other things are concern, you keep getting unknown stats from our PK Friends. They claim that they won in 1965 and 1999 while we claim that they got defeat in their objective.

This is what Mr. Growler said a while ago..

its not going to be long enough before i shut you mouth again with proving IAF operated 1000 combat planes..

Looks like he is not going to sleep until he finds the 'proof'

 

[Myth_buster_1]

alright indians... time for yet again another reality check...

yes i have to admit that i exaggerated 10-1 ratio.... infact it should have been 200 - 1000 including entire combat and non combat fleet.
well at least i did not go that far like most of indians.. lol they still consider 90,000 POWs as pakistani troops but little do they dont wanna know that only 45,000 were army personals. but this is entirely different topic made for different thread.. do not find this opportunity to divert the main topic here.

http://indianairforce.nic.in/show_page.php?pg_id=98

Republic status

In January 1950, India became a Republic within the British Commonwealth and the Indian Air Force dropped its "Royal" prefix. At this time, it possessed six fighter squadrons of Spitfires, Vampires and Tempests, operating from Kanpur, Poona, Ambala and Palam, one B-24 bomber squadron, one C-47 Dakota transport squadron, one AOP flight, a communications squadron at Palam and a growing training organisation. Training adhered closely to the pattern established by the RAF, most instructors having graduated from the CFS in the UK and in addition to No.1. Flying Training School at Hyderabad with Tiger Moths and Harvards and No. 2 FTS atJodhpur with Prentices and Harvards, there were IAF colleges at Begumpet, Coimbatore andJodhpur.Licence manufacture of the de Havilland Vampire had been initiated by HAL which, after building a batch from imported major assemblies, went on to manufacture a further 250. In addition, 60 Vampire T Mk. 55s were to be built of which 10 were assembled from imported kits. Nos.2,3 and 8 Squadrons followed No.7 Squadron on the Vampire, but, extraordinarily, 1951 also saw the formation of the last piston-engined fighter combat unit when No. 14 Squadron was raised on the Spitfire Mk. XVIII. Vampire NF Mk. 54 two-seat night fighters were obtained in May 1953 to re-equip No. 10. Sqn at Palam, thus endowing night-intercept capability upon the IAF for the first time. At this time, relations between India and Pakistan were again steadily deteriorating and the IAF, its combat strength virtually unchanged since partition in 1947, was scarcely ready for any full-scale conflict. Plans were accordingly framed for major expansion during the period 1953-57, and the Government began to seek non-traditional and alternative sources of combat aircraft procurement.

Selection of the Dassault Ouragan fighter from France at this time reflected the decision to initiate diversification of supply sources. The first four of over 100 Ouragans, or Toofanis as they were to become known in the IAF, reached Palam from France on 24 October 1953, and this type re-equipped Nos.8, 3 and 4 Squadrons in that order. The Toofanis were eventually to be passed on to newly-raised units Nos. 29 and 47 Squadrons, with the re-equipment in 1957 of Nos. 3 and 8 Squadrons with the Mystere IVA from the same Gallic stable.

Re-equipment of the combat units necessarily assumed an overriding priority in view of the growth of what were seen as threats to India's integrity, but expansion of airlift capability was also vital. A second transport squadron, No. 11, had been formed on C-47 Dakotas in September 1951, and considerable enhancement of the Service's logistic support capacity was heralded by procurement of 26 Fairchild C-119G Packets from the United States which reached India by the end of 1954. Rapidly to assume the status of an airlift backbone, the C- 119Gs were issued to No. 12 Squadron, which, for some years, operated them in concert with the C-47s, the older transports eventually passing to a newly-raised unit, No. 43 Squadron. A second batch of 29 C- 119Gs was obtained in July 1960, and the transport fleet was further augmented by another 24 C-119Gs in May 1963 under US emergency military aid.

Both the establishment of a Maintenance Command and resurrection of the Auxiliary Air Force took place in 1955, two units of the latter being formed as Nos. 51 and 52 Squadrons at New Delhi and Bombay. A third AAF unit, No. 53 Sqn, was raised at Madras in the following year, and four more added over the next two years, Nos. 54 (Allahabad), 55 (Calcutta), 56 (Bhubaneshwar) and 57 (Chandigarh) Squadrons. The AAF squadrons were equipped with the HAL-designed HT-2 trainer - officially introduced into service on 10 January 1955 - and the Harvard, although Vampire FB Mk. 52s were added in 1959.

North American T-6G Texans (Harvards)

Expansion and modernisation Particularly significant in IAF was the year 1957, which witnessed true beginnings of the major re-equipment programme that was to raise the Service fully to world standards. Deliveries began of 110 Dassault Mystere IVAs, carrying the service into the realms of transonic flight for the first time, and both Hawker Hunters and English Electric Canberras began to enter the IAF inventory. A new No. 1 Squadron was raised on the Mystere, the existing Vampire-equipped No. 1 Squadron being redesignated as No. 27 Squadron; No. 5 Squadron re-equipped with the Canberra B(l) Mk. 58, and, at the year's end, No. 7 Squadron began conversion to the Hunter FMk.56. It was perhaps appropriate that the year which saw commencement of an immense infusion of modern hardware should also witness the end of the IAF's piston-engined fighter epoch: No. 14 Squadron, the last firstline piston-engined fighter unit, flew in its Spitfire Mk. XVllls to Halwara in preparation for re-equipment with the Vampire.

The IAF's energies were now taxed heavily with implementation of an expansion programme aimed at raising the Service from a 15-squadron force to no fewer than 33 squadrons over an extremely short span of years: a Herculean task when performed simultaneously with sweeping equipment changes. Several new squadrons, such as Nos. 15, 17, 20, 24, 27 and 45, were raised on Vampire FB Mk. 52s as interim equipment; Canberra B(l) Mk. 58s had equipped two additional squadrons, Nos. 16 and 35 by 1959, No. 106 Squadron having equipped with Canberra PR Mk. 57s and by the end of the 1961, six squadrons (Nos.7, 14, 17, 20, 27 and 37) were equipped with the Hunter. Growth was not restricted to the combat elements for, in parallel, the IAF's transport force was enlarged to six squadrons, three with C-47s (Nos. 11, 43 and 49), two with C-119Gs (Nos. 12 and 19) and one with DHC-3 Otters (No.41).

IAF CanberraThe early sixties were accompanied by the IAF's induction of yet more new aircraft types, the most interesting of these arguably being the Folland Gnat lightweight fighter. With its startling agility, the Gnat proffered outstanding cost effectiveness and during the mid-fifties a licence agreement was concluded for its manufacture by HAL following delivery of 23 complete aircraft and 20 sets of components by the parent company. The first IAF unit, No. 23 Squadron, converted from the Vampire FB Mk. 52 to the Gnat in March 1960. No. 2 Squadron re-equipped with the Gnat at Ambala early in 1962, and No.9 Squadron soon followed suit.

The IAF was expanding rapidly, its personnel strength of 28,000 officers and men at the time of the Sino-lndian conflict increasing by some two-thirds by the end of 1964, but the manpower requirements of the 33-squadron force had still to be implemented fully when the scheme was overtaken by even more ambitious expansion to a 45-squadron force which was sanctioned by the Government in October 1962, this calling for the raising of IAF personnel strength to some 100,000 by the early seventies.