Thank you CJ Ifiti

[Zob]

see it is always a problem when you catch a BIG ENEMY....the powers don't know what to do with him!!


when NAPOLEN was caught by the allies they exiled him to ST.ELBA.....the allies didn't want to hang him because of fear of hatred from the french people and sympthies growing amongst the french......however Napoloen did come back and did the battle of WATERLOO!!

Hitler was never caught but if he had been we would have again faced a problem.....

i guess we learnt from BUGTTI.....if we hadn't killed the old man BALOCHISTAN would have been in less turmoil!!

we hung BHUTTO he became a hero....so you kill a guy or put him in prison you risk making him bigger....so what you do is let him out in the open and keep a watch on him restrict his movement and you slowly and steadily crush his public image.....


so unfortunately we are just stuck you hang him you risk making Tehrik Taliban ISLAMABAD!!

 

[Bane Blade]

No maulvi can give fatwa against the Shariat either ... it is the interpretation of Shariat and in this case the interpretation of law by the respective judge.

We are at war with internal and external enemies ... I see these young officers and jawans fighting for our very survival and then I see people like Abdul Aziz who support Talibans.

Lt. Col. Haroon ul-Islam and many others embraced shahadat in Lal Masjid operation and it just shatters my heart to see their sacrifices go in vain.

Yes they are martyrs of the LAL Masjid operation one question I ask you is that if he has been completely forgiven or released on Bail, that is the crucial point if he was considered a threat then they can't give him bale unfortuantely this was not mentioned at all secondly The judge in question is not influenced by CJP how can that be possible in the slightest.

 

[SSGPA1]

Yes they are martyrs of the LAL Masjid operation one question I ask you is that if he has been completely forgiven or released on Bail, that is the crucial point if he was considered a threat then they can't give him bale unfortuantely this was not mentioned at all secondly The judge in question is not influenced by CJP how can that be possible in the slightest.

All judges are appointed with recommendation of the CJP and HC Islamabad is the newest court so his appointment must have been on CJP's recommendation.

These recommendations are made for like minded and obedient professionals so that institutions can perform in sync.

Mr. Abdul Aziz is a known threat wheter it was mentioned by the public prosecutor or not. He was probably given bail to pacify his supporters but we can't keep doing this.

 

[Bane Blade]

All judges are appointed with recommendation of the CJP and HC Islamabad is the newest court so his appointment must have been on CJP's recommendation.

These recommendations are made for like minded and obedient professionals so that institutions can perform in sync.

Mr. Abdul Aziz is a known threat wheter it was mentioned by the public prosecutor or not. He was probably given bail to pacify his supporters but we can't keep doing this.

HC Islamabad had all its judges chosen before CJP came as for the case it was already given to the judges in question he hasn't selected the ones that heard this case and I feel that any judge who would have heard this case would have heard it fairly in the courts the person may have been given bale to avoid all the commotion and then maybe he will be jailed once we crush the Taliban judges want peace just as much as justice.

 

[qsaark]

All judges are appointed with recommendation of the CJP and HC Islamabad is the newest court so his appointment must have been on CJP's recommendation.

These recommendations are made for like minded and obedient professionals so that institutions can perform in sync.

Mr. Abdul Aziz is a known threat wheter it was mentioned by the public prosecutor or not. He was probably given bail to pacify his supporters but we can't keep doing this.

At least the appointments in MI, ISI, FIA and other spy agencies are not made through the recommendations of the CJ. Million dollar question is, why all these agencies failed in keeping an eye on Abdul Aziz's activities before Lal-Masjid episode and now after he was released on bail? Collecting proofs is not the responsibility of the Judiciary; it is the responsibility of the Police and the spy agencies. If Abdul Aziz was released on bail, this is solely because of the poor performance of Pakistan's spy agencies and the police which was not able to get concrete proof that could be used against him in the court.

 

[SSGPA1]

At least the appointments in MI, ISI, FIA and other spy agencies are not made through the recommendations of the CJ. Million dollar question is, why all these agencies failed in keeping an eye on Abdul Aziz's activities before Lal-Masjid episode and now after he was released on bail? Collecting proofs is not the responsibility of the Judiciary; it is the responsibility of the Police and the spy agencies. If Abdul Aziz was released on bail, this is solely because of the poor performance of Pakistan's spy agencies and the police which was not able to get concrete proof that could be used against him in the court.

Proof was provided but bail was still granted ... Agencies are keeping an eye this is why that Taliban commander was arrested from his house ...

Why ISI didn't take action: In past, Abdul Aziz and his brother were not challenging writ of the govt. and they were not kidnapping police officers and they were also not attacking Chinese nationals.

These guys were asked by their Taliban brothers and some key politicians (who benefitted the most) to take such actions to the point where Musharraf has no choice left but to take action.

This was a political issue stirred up by our corrupt politicians to get emotions of people against Musharraf.

Another reason for Abdul Aziz' bail: May be supporters of NS hoped that Maulana sahib will get NS votes in NA-55 elections

 

[qsaark]

Proof was provided but bail was still granted ... Agencies are keeping an eye this is why that Taliban commander was arrested from his house ...

Why ISI didn't take action: In past, Abdul Aziz and his brother were not challenging writ of the govt. and they were not kidnapping police officers and they were also not attacking Chinese nationals.

These guys were asked by their Taliban brothers and some key politicians (who benefitted the most) to take such actions to the point where Musharraf has no choice left but to take action.

This was a political issue stirred up by our corrupt politicians to get emotions of people against Musharraf.

Another reason for Abdul Aziz' bail: May be supporters of NS hoped that Maulana sahib will get NS votes in NA-55 elections

How could you be so sure? Were you present during the hearing? Or do you have access to the Court records?

 

[SSGPA1]

How could you be so sure? Were you present during the hearing? Or do you have access to the Court records?

He was released by the SCP and not the high court ... interesting that CJP allowed this to happen ... Mr. Aziz was captured in 07 on terrorism charges and he was THE principal/director/everything of Lal Majid.

This guys was arrested in burqa trying to run away from Lal Masjid.

What other proof do you need??

Please don't tell me that you will have no issue if CJP allows bail for Mehsood!

 

[muse]

lets face it no inveterate "real muslim" is going to accept any kind of "proof" against this mullah.

 

[qsaark]

He was released by the SCP and not the high court ... interesting that CJP allowed this to happen ... Mr. Aziz was captured in 07 on terrorism charges and he was THE principal/director/everything of Lal Majid.

This guys was arrested in burqa trying to run away from Lal Masjid.

Do you know any Justice from SCP? Please try to get yourself educated about how things work in the SCP. What is the role of CJP and whether he has any authority to interfere in the cases being heard by other Justices or panels. Once you become familiar with the judicial system and its operation, we'll come back and discuss in more constructive manner.

Release of Abdul Aziz has been discussed in detail in this thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/25213-maulana-abduz-aziz-released.html. You might want to go through the posts to find out what actually happened, how and why and on which case he was released on bail, and whether it was during the present CJP or Justice Dogar's time when he was released on bail on serious charges. You'll also find how and why his wife, was released on bail which all happened during Dogar's time, right under the nose of Musharraf.

What other proof do you need??

This you need to tell to the Judge who heard his cases not me. Because I have no clue what evidences were presented, and how well they were prepared. Just because you think they were enough wont convince the court. You need to go through the court's proceedings to understand what happened and why.

Please don't tell me that you will have no issue if CJP allows bail for Mehsood!

Please avoid inserting words into my mouth which I have never said.

 

[niaz]

Let us examine actions of the CJ Iftikhar Chaudhry since the time he was restored first time by Musharraf.

-He released all the terrorists captured alive from Lal Masjid. Most of these ended up in Swat and were directly responsible for Swat crisis. (As stated in an article in the Jang by Hamid Mir). Is there any doubt that Lal Masjd terrorists had Al Quaida links?

-He restored most of the illegally occupied land back to Jamia Hafsa. He released on bail an enemy of the state, Mulla Abdul Aziz who actually fought PA with guns.

Thus Hon CJ has not come out as anything other than a vindictive person out to undo whatever Musharraf has done out of spite, even if it means releasing anti state elements. I humbly request all those Hon Members who think that Lal Masjid mob were not anti state, kindly explain under which law of the Pakistan, mosques are allowed to amass fire arms, openly defy GOP writ and fight PA commandos with guns? If despite the above one still feels Lal Masjid mob were innocent than I would say:

“With friends like you, poor Pakistan does not need India; you are enough for her destruction”.

Now let us come to the NS case. CJ was very much part of the SC, when NS was sentenced under the PIA plane hijack case. (PIA flight was denied permission to land at Karachi thereby endangering 200 or so lives). It is also a fact that no person convicted of any crime can take part in elections in Pakistan. The question arises that when NS was pardoned by then President Rafiq Tarrar, did the pardon cover only the sentence of imprisonment or it also wiped away the crime?

SC bench when Dogar was CJ, decided that sentence was pardoned but conviction stayed, therefore the appeal was rejected. The same SC with Iftikhar Chaudhry as CJ decides that conviction was also wiped clean and thus Sharif brothers are eligible for e-election.

Justice in most cases is a grey area, and to use the argument " Were you present, do you know the arguments” indicate a highly biased and prejudicial point of view, not worthy of very well educated and scholarly person. It also neither proves nor disproves the argument unless you consider it is justice only when the decision is in your favor else it is injustice?

I was not there but to me it is as plain as daylight that CJ Iftikhar Chaudhry is now a political person and out to favour NS (without PML-N support, he would still be going around from pillar to post) with all means at his disposal. If Mr. Chaudhry had such impeccable integrity, why did he not refuse to endorse Mushararf in 1999? Some Justices resigned at that time as well.

All those who hate Musharraf can jump with joy, I don’t particularly like Musharaf after he refused to take off his uniform as he had promised; but I like vindictive CJ’s even less. This is however my personal point of view and I respect all those who differ, I am also willing to change my mind if any one can disprove what I have stated about the incumbent CJ.

 

[qsaark]

Justice in most cases is a grey area, and to use the argument " Were you present, do you know the arguments” indicate a highly biased and prejudicial point of view, not worthy of very well educated and scholarly person. It also neither proves nor disproves the argument unless you consider it is justice only when the decision is in your favor else it is injustice?

Whatever you have said regarding Lal Masjid and NS etc may be true and may not be true. All the case proceedings are published in the “Pakistan Law Digest”. An educated way of giving arguments is to back them up with evidence. The evidence of any mishandling of the cases can only be found in those case proceedings. May I suggest you to read those case proceedings and see if really justice was not done in those cases. Petitions can always be filed and cases be re-opened.

We Doctors, never ever judge the diagnosis and treatment of a fellow doctor until and unless we have fully gone through the case report. Than if we find something wrong, we try to correct it. Acting on impulse and emotions is not the educated way of handling things.

In all civil societies, Judiciary works on the principal “maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit” that is “"the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges.". Because you are accusing CJ for misconduct, burden of proof is laying on you. The CJ is innocent until proven guilty as per The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11, which states: Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which they have had all the guarantees necessary for their defence. And is exactly what happened during the trials of the Lal-Masjid terrorists etc. If Army was unhappy with those trials, why the suspects were not tried under Military tribunals? The fact that the CJ is still alive clearly tells that he made no misconduct during the hearing of those trials, else, Army would have hanged me for helping terrorists who are now (as per your claim) targeting the Army personnel.

 

[SSGPA1]

This you need to tell to the Judge who heard his cases not me. Because I have no clue what evidences were presented, and how well they were prepared. Just because you think they were enough wont convince the court. You need to go through the court's proceedings to understand what happened and why.

No you need to hear this because you are the one who is backing theSE decissions made by the SCP/CJP.

I am very clear on PoV that this is one of those decissions which could have been taken while keeping our national interest in sight.

 

[qsaark]

No you need to hear this because you are the one who is backing theSE decissions made by the SCP/CJP.

I am very clear on PoV that this is one of those decissions which could have been taken while keeping our national interest in sight.

I am supporting their decision because I understand how Judiciary works and also because unlike you, I believe in the system. What you are talking about is only your opinion, and you are assuming too much. Instead of blaming the CJ or any Justice just like that, being an educated and responsible citizen, you should do some research, find evidence to backup your claims and than try to convince people. Repeating the same stuff like an old parrot is not helping your cause no matter how noble it may be.

 

[niaz]

.

We Doctors, never ever judge the diagnosis and treatment of a fellow doctor until and unless we have fully gone through the case report. Than if we find something wrong, we try to correct it. Acting on impulse and emotions is not the educated way of handling things.

In all civil societies, Judiciary works on the principal “maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit” that is “"the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges.". Because you are accusing CJ for misconduct, burden of proof is laying on you. The CJ is innocent until proven guilty as per The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11, which states: Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which they have had all the guarantees necessary for their defence. .

This forum is not a court of law that CJ is innocent until proven guilty. The proof to show whether CJ Iftikhar Chaudhry is guilty of vindictiveness in his judgments therefore does not lie with me but in his one sided decisions as enumerated in my earlier post. No doubt there is an element of subjectivity in my view of the CJ. I have admitted it as much. I however standby what I believe.

When I said that justice is a grey area, I meant that whether or not a person is guilty in actual fact has no direct relationship with whether it can be proven in a court of law. History is full of instances where the innocents were punished and guilty were let off because it could not be proven without any doubt.

For example ZA Bhutto was sentenced by Pak SC thru a majority verdict and hanged. Majority of the population now consider it to be a judicial murder. Zardari on the other hand is universally known as Mr. 10% but GOP failed to get a single conviction against him in 10 years! Despite the fact that his lawyer, Aitzaz Ahsan admitted in an interview with US paper that most charges had some bases.

Also people’s perceptions of what is crime change over time. Evidenced by the fact the Sh. Ibne Timiyya and even Mujadad Alif Sani (Sh. Ahmad of Sirhind) were found guilty and punished in a contemporary court by Islamic Qazis. Would you consider them guilty today?

Your medical example therefore is not valid in this case. I have nothing more to say on this subject.