TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Turan09]

when you dont produce your own engine, you cannot compete in price.. thats why it is important to finish it as soon as possible

Correct And not correct in the same time. Correct, because yes engine is an important part (most important part probibly) so producing it in Turkey would make the Hürkuş much more cheaper.

And not correct because Korea uses the same engine, (Pratt Whitney) so with this logic, engine is not the problem. The problem is Korean KT-1 first introduced in 2000... they produce it alot so it became cheaper... but Turkish Hürkuş is brand new. (2016) so of course korean will be cheaper.

 

[Indos]

Turkey must use Hurjet program to get TOT on the engine, hopefully the engine can be produced in Turkey. Korean T 50 Golden Eagle engine (GE F 404) is produced in Korea. KFX engine (GE F 414) will also be produced at Korea. Korean seems to get a lot of benefit from their indigenous defense program. Turkey must follow Korean steps.

 

[Oublious]

Turkey must use Hurjet program to get TOT on the engine, hopefully the engine can be produced in Turkey. Korean T 50 Golden Eagle engine (GE F 404) is produced in Korea. KFX engine (GE F 414) will also be produced at Korea. Korean seems to get a lot of benefit from their indigenous defense program. Turkey must follow Korean steps.

Korea indigenous? Ther is nothing indigenous they can offer us, the thing is American give them full ToT. But they can not share it with others, they have started projects like ther AESA radar. Because America don't want that they share it with Indonesia. Ther project will turn in a mess.

 

[Kamil_baku]

Turkey must use Hurjet program to get TOT on the engine, hopefully the engine can be produced in Turkey. Korean T 50 Golden Eagle engine (GE F 404) is produced in Korea. KFX engine (GE F 414) will also be produced at Korea. Korean seems to get a lot of benefit from their indigenous defense program. Turkey must follow Korean steps.

bro, Turkey can produce all subsystems in that engine that they would be willing to transfer.. after this level, nobody wants to share their technology more..
i believe wht Turkey can do is using EJ200 and another RR engine on TFX to get the technology transfer it needs.. as Turkey will need lots of TFX, almost 250, and lets say 100-150 Hurjet, that might be a good negotiation..

 

[Test7]

Turkey must use Hurjet program to get TOT on the engine, hopefully the engine can be produced in Turkey. Korean T 50 Golden Eagle engine (GE F 404) is produced in Korea. KFX engine (GE F 414) will also be produced at Korea. Korean seems to get a lot of benefit from their indigenous defense program. Turkey must follow Korean steps.

As much as the United States allowed South Korea to do. Korea is politically under the control of the United States.

 

[azyr]

So why purchasing software from Dassault/Rafael (France) than?

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/turkish-aerospace-selected-dassault-systèmes-for-the-tf-x-national-combat-aircraft-program-3142

As some pointed out this is a "package" program. A mix of CAD software with some simulation like properties added in. This isn't the software that you put inside the plane - it's an "overgrown" 3DS MAX or Autocad if that makes sense? You can even look it up : 3DEXPERIENCE

Turkey is actually pretty competent regarding software and has been building up her own version of NATO LINK systems and the lot. So we're covered in this part.

The pilot will not have 360 degree awareness?

Not true per-se. While I think the cockpit design will change in time, even if it doesn't you don't really need optic angles for a 360 view anymore. Much like cars that have 360 parking cameras on them (streams from multiple cameras placed on different places on the car are merged with software to produce 1 big 360 degree top view) a similar tech can work (and already does) for planes. You could use AR tech to add this to the helmet.

BUT having said that, maneuverability is key here, the helmet shouldn't be a big burden to the pilot and also the pilot should have enough room to look around the plane (including down) for this solution to work.

 

[Kamil_baku]

As some pointed out this is a "package" program. A mix of CAD software with some simulation like properties added in. This isn't the software that you put inside the plane - it's an "overgrown" 3DS MAX or Autocad if that makes sense? You can even look it up : 3DEXPERIENCE

Turkey is actually pretty competent regarding software and has been building up her own version of NATO LINK systems and the lot. So we're covered in this part.



Not true per-se. While I think the cockpit design will change in time, even if it doesn't you don't really need optic angles for a 360 view anymore. Much like cars that have 360 parking cameras on them (streams from multiple cameras placed on different places on the car are merged with software to produce 1 big 360 degree top view) a similar tech can work (and already does) for planes. You could use AR tech to add this to the helmet.

BUT having said that, maneuverability is key here, the helmet shouldn't be a big burden to the pilot and also the pilot should have enough room to look around the plane (including down) for this solution to work.

on the other hand, every second is important in dog fight...
before, because of the smoke behind air to air missiles, pilots could see them with bear eyes, but not with new no smoke technology, its hard to see them and which end up pilot not turning the jet on time, which thinking of speed of those missiles, what would understand what each milli seconds means..
however, in future consept, those eo cameras can warn the pilot thanks to their thermal cameras, and where pilot turn his head, he would have the view of those are with better battlefield view..

 

[monitor]

Turkish Airforce has two dedicated C-160 platforms for signals intelligence, communication intelligence, imaging as well RF jamming. One was recently photographed during the ongoing Anatolian Eagle exercise.

 

[Test7]

 

[Armchair]

My Turkish brothers, we all love you very much. I personally would gladly fight and die for Turkey. But some things we are afraid to tell you because we don't want to make you upset. It's still better for you to know this (and more importantly for your government decision makers to know!!!).

1. No country will give you ToT for building your own engines. This kind of thinking is very naive.
2. They will waste your time (like with the RR engine) as much as possible to slow down your projects
3. Building engine is not something you or anyone can do in a short period of time. It will take 10-20 years of development from the zero level you are at. Even then, there is a big chance that you will fail.
4. Don't live in a fantasy land like some nations. Try to develop a realistic understanding of the world around you.
5. If you develop a plane using US engines, remember, you are not South Korea. You are a Muslim state. At the last minute, they may choose to withold the engines on one pretext or another. Then your entire project would look like a bad joke. Yet again. Did not the F-35 teach you that?
6. Learn lessons from past mistakes. Don't just glorify the past. If you cannot learn from the mistakes of past procurement policies, you will keep doing the same mistakes again and again.
7. The engines you can get access to meaningfully (and without ToT) are Russian and Chinese. The sooner you realize this the less painful this will be. Otherwise it will be one humiliation after another (did not your past project experiences teach you this?)

Hope you aren't too upset with what I wrote. Please forgive me if you are.

 

[Saithan]

We know that already . But we like to talk in circles and dreams. Hurkus is already ours. If we can make hurjet 100% domestic then our dream tfx may not be so far away

 

[Zhukov]

Looks so much like a Raptor

 

[TheMightyBender]

My Turkish brothers, we all love you very much. I personally would gladly fight and die for Turkey. But some things we are afraid to tell you because we don't want to make you upset. It's still better for you to know this (and more importantly for your government decision makers to know!!!).

1. No country will give you ToT for building your own engines. This kind of thinking is very naive.
2. They will waste your time (like with the RR engine) as much as possible to slow down your projects
3. Building engine is not something you or anyone can do in a short period of time. It will take 10-20 years of development from the zero level you are at. Even then, there is a big chance that you will fail.
4. Don't live in a fantasy land like some nations. Try to develop a realistic understanding of the world around you.
5. If you develop a plane using US engines, remember, you are not South Korea. You are a Muslim state. At the last minute, they may choose to withold the engines on one pretext or another. Then your entire project would look like a bad joke. Yet again. Did not the F-35 teach you that?
6. Learn lessons from past mistakes. Don't just glorify the past. If you cannot learn from the mistakes of past procurement policies, you will keep doing the same mistakes again and again.
7. The engines you can get access to meaningfully (and without ToT) are Russian and Chinese. The sooner you realize this the less painful this will be. Otherwise it will be one humiliation after another (did not your past project experiences teach you this?)

Hope you aren't too upset with what I wrote. Please forgive me if you are.

While I can see that you have good intentions and I thank you for your input, I cant help but point out some inaccuracies in your suggestions and respond to some others. Here we go, point by point:

1- This is categorically false. People will absolutely give you TOT on engine. A lot of countries have done this, including Turkey. TEI wasbuilt on TOT and it received a ton of TOT from the F110 engine, for example. What is true is that people will be extremely hesitant to provide TOT on critical technologies of the engine.

2- no comment.

3- we already know that engine development takes a long time, which is why we are using foreign engines for prototypes and maybe even initial production. But there is no such thing as “failing” in such projects, this is not a lottery where you either win a prize or not. The worst things that can happen to such a project are delays and cost overruns. That may cause public optimist about the project to fade resulting in the abandonment of the project, but again, there is no such thing as “failing”.

4- I dont see how Turkey’s planning could be any more realistic.

5- I think one of the most unrealistic things you can do today is falsely playing the victim. The US doesnt care if you are Korean, Muslim or Venezuelan. If they dont like you they dont like you. This is also the reason why the south koreans decided to develop a vast majority of KFX technologies on their own. Because they saw that the US does not freely provide technology to any “non muslim country” they see. Also like us, they realized that the engine is a difficult issue and that only western engines (US, UK, France) provide a meaningful option for them.

6- No comment.

7- Using Russian engines may be an option if Turkey’s relations with the west collapses completely, but until that point going for a Russian engine is very difficult. China does not have any viable engines that we can use. I think it is time we realized the truth and stopped this sinocentric dream and faced the real life.

Again thank you for your comments.

One last comment:
While you are repeatedly bringing up the issue of F-35s (which hasnt even happened yet), you are conveniently forgetting 60+ years of cooperation:

1- Turkey is the only country other than the US that is allowed to build the F-16s from scratch.
2- The US established the foundation of Turkey’s defence industry with companies such as Turkish Aerospace Industries and Turkish Engine Industries
3- US also helped establish scientific and technological institutions such as middle east technical university (which is one of the top 2-3 schools for the defence industry in Turkey.
4- more examples available upon request

I think before we start teaching the leadership of another country how to run their country we should consider reading up a page or two first.

This is getting ultralong but I promise this is my last comment. Warning against working with The US because they are against muslims and then suggesting working with China who has millions of muslims in internment camp? Seriously? This is an oxymoron

 

[neosinan]

@Armchair GE is good idea for Turkey simple because We already have huge number of them in our f16s. More importantly we produce many parts for these engines and We may reverse engineer and produce these if need be. So We have great B plan if our engine development project doesn't come to fruition.

 

[Armchair]

@Armchair GE is good idea for Turkey simple because We already have huge number of them in our f16s. More importantly we produce many parts for these engines and We may reverse engineer and produce these if need be. So We have great B plan if our engine development project doesn't come to fruition.

Reverse engineering an engine is not what you are making it out to be my friend. It took the Chinese decades despite having samples, expert, imported engineers, everything, and even then, to this day, they haven't truly got it right.

This is what I am saying, Turkey is living in a dreamland, and unfortunately reality is going to hit it hard, it already is.

While I can see that you have good intentions and I thank you for your input, I cant help but point out some inaccuracies in your suggestions and respond to some others. Here we go, point by point:

1- This is categorically false. People will absolutely give you TOT on engine. A lot of countries have done this, including Turkey. TEI wasbuilt on TOT and it received a ton of TOT from the F110 engine, for example. What is true is that people will be extremely hesitant to provide TOT on critical technologies of the engine.

2- no comment.

3- we already know that engine development takes a long time, which is why we are using foreign engines for prototypes and maybe even initial production. But there is no such thing as “failing” in such projects, this is not a lottery where you either win a prize or not. The worst things that can happen to such a project are delays and cost overruns. That may cause public optimist about the project to fade resulting in the abandonment of the project, but again, there is no such thing as “failing”.

4- I dont see how Turkey’s planning could be any more realistic.

5- I think one of the most unrealistic things you can do today is falsely playing the victim. The US doesnt care if you are Korean, Muslim or Venezuelan. If they dont like you they dont like you. This is also the reason why the south koreans decided to develop a vast majority of KFX technologies on their own. Because they saw that the US does not freely provide technology to any “non muslim country” they see. Also like us, they realized that the engine is a difficult issue and that only western engines (US, UK, France) provide a meaningful option for them.

6- No comment.

7- Using Russian engines may be an option if Turkey’s relations with the west collapses completely, but until that point going for a Russian engine is very difficult. China does not have any viable engines that we can use. I think it is time we realized the truth and stopped this sinocentric dream and faced the real life.

Again thank you for your comments.

One last comment:
While you are repeatedly bringing up the issue of F-35s (which hasnt even happened yet), you are conveniently forgetting 60+ years of cooperation:

1- Turkey is the only country other than the US that is allowed to build the F-16s from scratch.
2- The US established the foundation of Turkey’s defence industry with companies such as Turkish Aerospace Industries and Turkish Engine Industries
3- US also helped establish scientific and technological institutions such as middle east technical university (which is one of the top 2-3 schools for the defence industry in Turkey.
4- more examples available upon request

I think before we start teaching the leadership of another country how to run their country we should consider reading up a page or two first.

This is getting ultralong but I promise this is my last comment. Warning against working with The US because they are against muslims and then suggesting working with China who has millions of muslims in internment camp? Seriously? This is an oxymoron

Respectfully, I think you are a confused person. On the one hand you are saying that countries will give ToT to Turkey, then do an about turn and say, "but not for critical technologies". This is what we call eating the cake and having it too.