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Terrorist and killer Narendra Modi on TIME 2012 list is a shame

If you are not aware of being an RSS supporter, you are doing so unawares.

Even the term Secular Thekadaar comes from them, it is not a commonplace usually encountered term.

Labeling anything who opposes to ur views is RSS then sir i am, same time who blindly puts the blame on RSS shoulder for any dispute among the communities is Secular Thekedaar. You keep dragging rss into every discussion then your awareness level may rise until you dare to see other side of coin.
 
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Again sir, I want to tell i hardly knows RSS .... this is exactly what our Secular Thekadaar do if some one raises their put their views which is contrary to secular mindset like you they will you label us RSS followers..... I never followed RSS ever in my life...

Maybe you have a mental block: it is not you, personally, it is your RSS views. If you do not wish to be clubbed with the RSS and its sympathisers and followers, examine the divisive nature of your views. Carefully.
 
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Modi is not a magic wand for India's problems. BJP and Modi are good at creating this illusion of growth and prosperity. I dont believe BJP did anything radical during their term. But one is just drugged by their propaganda, making you believe that things are great. Congress doesn't do that . So you actually know how sh1tty things are.

That said, I definitely want BJP in the next term as congress has swindled way too much this time and I feel like getting drugged by some feel good propaganda.

Dude,

Forget about all that.The deal is Indian Civil service is an amazong institution and thats what runs the country despite so many problems we are facing and good administration at even a local level happens when you empower the IAS/IPS officers.

Modi and Jayalalitha are the only ones who trust the wisdom of these guys and let an organic rule of law prevail,thats the real justice.

Most other CMs grossly let local party guys benefit and create imbalances,i would support anyone who gets rid off these.
 
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Modi is not a magic wand for India's problems. BJP and Modi are good at creating this illusion of growth and prosperity. I dont believe BJP did anything radical during their term. But one is just drugged by their propaganda, making you believe that things are great. Congress doesn't do that . So you actually know how sh1tty things are.

But NDA is thousand time better than UPA and other secularist parties anyday that keep terrorists alive on tax payers money and compromise the national security and not forgetting to mention, offer power to a country that has only caused harm to India when there is no power in India for Indians.

This is your great UPA and its allies.

BJP is the first step to a revolution in Indian political thinking. They may be corrupt too but they are anyday better than Congress.

That said, I definitely want BJP in the next term as congress has swindled way too much this time and I feel like getting drugged by some feel good propaganda.

Well admit it; NDA is far better than UPA. The demon is always better than the devil.
 
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Now to come to the posts about facts and evidence:

Again you are not aware of the facts and letting prejudice getting better of that. It is funny that you think it was the bodies that aroused the emotions and not the horrific crime of torching 57 devotees (many of them women and children) alive in Godhra itself.

Coming to your point, first of all the bodies were brought to the Sola civil hospital which was in western outskirts of Ahd , an area with little population and not to the main civil hospital in eastern Ahd from where the most killed Karsevaks hailed , and that too in the dead of the night, as a precautionary measure not to incite passions.

And both the Govt and the officials wanted the bodies to be cremated nearby so that passions will not be aroused..but the relatives of the fallen who hailed from the other side of Ahd would have none of it and took the bodies to their place and the procession gained number as it crossed the Ahd city. Modi had little or nothing to do with it.

It is strange, passing strange that after turning my accusation on its head, and arguing that I am not aware of the facts, and I am allowing prejudices to rule instead, you should then betray - once again - the same failing.

You stated,"... It is funny that you think it was the bodies that aroused the emotions and not the horrific crime of torching 57 devotees (many of them women and children) alive in Godhra itself..."

Right. Great. If it was indeed the crime as an abstract and not the bodies, how did you know? Did someone inform you? Was there a printed report? Did an eyewitness swear on oath and reveal the

and then proceeded on your way without a shred of evidence to back up your assertion that the horror aroused was because of the nature of the crime, not the bodies on display.

'How did you know? Did you take a poll? Did you interview a sufficient number of the survivors?

Unless you did so, your statement is still redolent of personal opinion, not fact. Your facts are nowhere to be seen.

India Today

This, dear Sir, was an opinion poll, and not evidence. Two opinions do not combine in some mystic fashion and constitute fact; evidence, in the sense that you would have it, is not congealed mass opinion.

No doubt you too are wounded at being called an RSS member or a Sangh Parivar camp follower. Leaving aside the necessity of prevarication in the event of being detected, it is interesting that every word, every phrase, even the thought process identical to the thought process that insisted that the courts could not decide the ownership of the Babri Masjid and that the combined faith and belief of the people should override everything else - every last detail matches the MO of the Parivar. Why then are you saddened, or even astonished at people assuming that you are a paid up member of the khaki shorts?

And the SIT also has given a clean chit to the Govt's decision to shift the bodies to Ahd.

Decision oof bringing bodies from Godhra to Ahmedabad was right because Godhra was tense. Most karsevaks from Ahmedabad and nearby area. Ahmedabad was the best place for identification of bodies. Sola civil hospital was on outskirts of Ahmedabad and the bodies were broght in only at night. Cold storage and DNA testing facilities were not available in Godhra. So bringing bodies to Ahmedabad was justified.

Seven major points of SIT report revealed by Times Now | DeshGujarat.Com
I'm not an apologist but a realist who is aware of the past history/bad blood between the two communities, limitations of India, the woeful state our LEAs are in and how much little it takes to ignite a spark between them, while you sir, are an idealist living in an utopian world where two actions do not have connection with each other and can be treated in isolation. No it cannot. Newton's law plays a very important part here.

Again, your words convict you. Again you resort to the argument of executive expediency; that was the best thing to do in the circumstances, rather than doing the instructed or stipulated thing.

Knowing, granting your point for a moment, knowing the history of bad blood between the two communities and knowing how little it would take to ignite a spark between them, to quote your own words, it could have been either blatant incapacity or Machiavellian cunning to ensure that the dead bodies got a full exposure. Idealist? Utopian world? The British and independent India after that had developed a careful procedure for dealing with communal strife. This procedure was very well known in Gujarat, especially after the election of the policeman, Jaspal Singh, whose election represented one clear and distinct step forward for the saffronisation of Gujarat.

Sir, I too oppose a mindset which speaks for a particular society & I strongly oppose when you bring religion into it.... every citizen of this country is indian first & its a bound duty of our gov to protect every citizen irrespective of their religion caste race or anything that divides us....

Then why do you not condemn those who violate this principle?
 
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Of Lies, More Lies and Sangh-Speak

Haren Pandya, the disgruntled former Home Minister who was demoted to Revenue Minister, a close confidante of ousted Keshubhai Patel and a person who was NOT even present in the alleged meeting is first of all, not a credible source. He held a personal grudge against Modi for that and even refused to vacate the Ellisbridge MLA seat for Modi to contest and win. Modi had to contest from the Rajkot seat then.

You forgot to add murdered mysteriously, after his revelations of these facts. You forgot to mention that his father, a long-time RSS supporter, accused Modi of being behind his son's death. Returning to the facts behind whom Pandya spoke to, and if or not he did so with any personal knowledge or not, let us examine the facts.

From India Today, rather than a blog, and from Hindustan Times:

Haren Pandya spoke of Narendra Modi complicity in riots: Former HC judge : West News - India Today

Did SIT ignore Haren Pandya testimony? - Hindustan Times

Check for yourself how reputed and respectable judges of a high court bore testimony to Pandya having given this testimony before he was killed, and how, btw, these reports thereby automatically became 'hearsay' evidence.

It is not safe, under the rule of administrative expediency that you pleaded for a while back, as a substitute for the rule of law, to come up with evidence against Modi. You may suffer severe consequences.

Also read for yourself how the SIT has taken a perverted approach to its investigation, by failing to approach damaging witnesses, by failing to take notice of damaging testimony, and by failing to give access to information in its custody to those seeking clarification on any point of the happenings during the riots.

Now coming to Mr.Pandya's testimony ; HP has himself denied that he testified anything to any tribunal and only Outlook claims that he did in its article June 3 2002.

It also goes on to claim the following in the same article :

“The minister told Outlook that in his deposition, he revealed that on the night of February 27, Modi summoned DGP K. Chakravarthy, commissioner of police, Ahmedabad, P.C. Pande, chief secretary G. Subarao, home secretary Ashok Narayan, secretary to the home department K. Nityanand (a serving police officer of IG rank on deputation) and DGP (IB) G.S. Raigar. Also present were officers from the CM’s office: P.K. Mishra, Anil Mukhim and A.K. Sharma. The minister also told Outlook that the meeting was held at the CM’s bungalow.

Now the funny part is that day Subarao was on leave and instead it was acting chief secretary S K Varma who participated in that meeting. Now assuming Haren Pandya first of all gave an interview to Outlook, what credibility does his claims have regarding what Modi told them, when he could not even get who attended that meeting right ?

As is clear from the publication above, Pandya spoke to the fact-finding commission that was first on the scene, and that early defection from the ranks provoked murderous rage on the part of someone. Here we need to apply the legal principle of Cui bono, who benefitted by Haren Pandya's murder?

Second, there is ample evidence that efforts at casting doubt on his account of the meeting, which he clearly told the commission was narrated to him by someone actually present, were wrong in themselves.

For instance:

"...Sanjiv Bhatt shared information and documentary evidence with SIT which proposes the real nature of events that led to the incident of burning of the S-6 coach of the Sabarmati Express at Godhra on 27 February 2002 and the larger conspiracy and official orchestration behind the subsequent Gujarat riots of 2002.[7].Mr.Bhatt has deposed before the Supreme Court constituted Special Investigation Team (SIT), G.T.Nanavati- Akshay Mehta panel(which was formed by Gujarat state Government) and National commission of minorities (NCM) and offered his valuable testimony related to Godhra riots especially on what transpired in the 27 Feb 2002 meeting held at Mr.Modi’s residence. He had submitted scores of documents to prove the inaction of police officers, total breakdown of administrative machinery at the behest of then CM Mr.Modi. His affidavit in SC blew the lid off Mr.Modi’s government’s commission and omission on Godhra riots. His starling revelation on Mr.Haren Pandya’s murder was another wonderful action to unmask the gruesome murder..."

This is not all. There is voluminous evidence about all these happenings.

We will examine your wide-eyed innocence about the rest, and your healthy scepticism of any information that has not appeared in Organiser or in a friendly blog, in the next post.

I've not heard about this. Is it another Haren Pandya claim ?



Again, Mr.Shreekumar was not present in the meeting and he bases his allegations on the ground that the then Director General of Police VK Chakrabvarty, who participated in that crucial February 27 meeting, told him that the CM had directed officers to go slow against Hindu rioters and allow them to give vent to their feelings against the Muslims.

But the sad part, VK.Chakraborty has denied it strongly in his affidavit filed before the SIT and reiterates that Modi only asked them to control the riots at the earliest and not the mumbo jumbo Skreekumar accused him of.

Also it would be worthwhile to note that Shreekumar did not make these claims in the first two affidavits he filed with Nanavati Commission and his position only changed after he was denied promotion by the Modi Govt.

What?? Typing into a computer screen with your keyboard makes you Superman?


Whichever language you translate this into, "only in comparison with duds like you" <> "Typing into a computer screen with your keyboard makes you Superman"

It remains,"...only in comparison with duds like you". Sorry, no money back.
 
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Labeling anything who opposes to ur views is RSS then sir i am, same time who blindly puts the blame on RSS shoulder for any dispute among the communities is Secular Thekedaar. You keep dragging rss into every discussion then your awareness level may rise until you dare to see other side of coin.

You have not added a single argument to this one for the last few posts. If you have nothing to say, why not give it a rest till you can be prompted by the local shakha?
 
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Maybe you have a mental block: it is not you, personally, it is your RSS views. If you do not wish to be clubbed with the RSS and its sympathisers and followers, examine the divisive nature of your views. Carefully.

Keep bargaining for RSS will get you some more Thekedar fellows which will more polarize society & this is what you fellow thekedar has been doing for several years..... I have nothing to examine as you are in complete denial mode of what i have been trying to say......
 
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You have not added a single argument to this one for the last few posts. If you have nothing to say, why not give it a rest till you can be prompted by the local shakha?

Sorry sir, I have nothing to comment on your post because you are very respected here but you are now doing same what ordinary members do on PDF.....
 
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Sorry sir, I have nothing to comment on your post because you are very respected here but you are now doing same what ordinary members do on PDF.....

What makes you think I am not an ordinary member?

If you really mean what you wrote above, bye, bye, have a nice day, and we'll get in touch next century. Of course, things move very slowly, so it might take twice as long.

Don't call me, I'll call you.
 
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What makes you think I am not an ordinary member?

If you really mean what you wrote above, bye, bye, have a nice day, and we'll get in touch next century. Of course, things move very slowly, so it might take twice as long.

Don't call me, I'll call you.

Because i cant argue a man who is constantly accusing me a RSS man trying to pretend himself a vaery secular fighter without being rational ... Now I am coming to know why people call you Kangressi agent......
 
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It is strange, passing strange that after turning my accusation on its head, and arguing that I am not aware of the facts, and I am allowing prejudices to rule instead, you should then betray - once again - the same failing.

[.......]

Unless you did so, your statement is still redolent of personal opinion, not fact. Your facts are nowhere to be seen.

Nice try, but then again you are just beating around the bush when the core of your argument has been debunked.

Your initial accusation was that Modi "paraded" the bodies around Ahmedabad to rouse passions and I countered that myth by proving how much caution was exercised in bringing it to the Sola Hospital in a sparsely populated area in the dead of the night and how he wanted the bodies to be cremated there itself , but it was the relatives of the fallen who would not agree to it and took the bodies into their possession.

For your reading again, (No this not an opinion poll. This is journalistic reporting as to what happened on the ground on that day and it suffices as evidence on an online fora. If you want to go by the legal definition of "evidence" then probably you and me have to appear before the SIT, make ourselves party to the dispute and then request the evidences to trade arguments)

Significantly, Modi tried to ensure that the bodies of the victims were cremated near the hospital where they were brought for post-mortem at 3.30 a.m. on February 28 from Godhra. The Sola Civil Hospital is on the western outskirts of Ahmedabad where the Muslim population is negligible. Cremating the bodies there, Modi thought, would have helped contain the anger.

Some VHP leaders present at the spot were also under instructions to convince the relatives of the victims to agree to the proposal. But the moment the proposal was floated, the kin of the dead flared up and accused the BJP "of acting in a manner worse than the Congress".

India Today


No doubt you too are wounded at being called an RSS member or a Sangh Parivar camp follower. Leaving aside the necessity of prevarication in the event of being detected,

You assume too much regarding my sympathies and memberships and its funny cosidering that we know not who we are outside this virtual fora. And it is only fair that I counter-assume that you are one of those chai-sipping, stubble sporting,JNU types with their jhola slung across the shoulder exhibiting their coffee club communism.

Realistically I have seen you often label people that don't agree with your line of thinking as RSS/Sangh and what not. It only shows your necessity to stereotype people,classify them into one of the predefined templates in your mind and make them conform to your line of thinking before starting to answer them. Good tactics for online debate, but a very very bad move if you are genuinely interesting in putting your point across and learning something in return.

it is interesting that every word, every phrase, even the thought process identical to the thought process that insisted that the courts could not decide the ownership of the Babri Masjid and that the combined faith and belief of the people should override everything else - every last detail matches the MO of the Parivar. Why then are you saddened, or even astonished at people assuming that you are a paid up member of the khaki shorts?

Last time I heard, it was the BMAC (Babri Masjid Acction Committee) that was opposing the Allahabad high court order, trifurcating the land and not the Sangh which actually welcomed the "court order"....And Sangh ? What is the Sangh..Is it a homogeneous monolithic entity speaking in one voice all over ? No. While BJP and RSS welcomed the Allahabad order, some extreme right wingers started opposing after the BMAC opposed it. So much for stereotypes.



Knowing, granting your point for a moment, knowing the history of bad blood between the two communities and knowing how little it would take to ignite a spark between them, to quote your own words, it could have been either blatant incapacity or Machiavellian cunning to ensure that the dead bodies got a full exposure.

Same rhetoric again ?

Give it a rest sir, as already stated Modi wanted the bodies to be cremated near the hospital premises and it was the relatives of the fallen who insisted on taking them to their place across the Ahmedabad city.

Now you may not be aware, but it is an integral part of Hindu funeral rites to bring the body home and perform certain rites before cremating it. And denying them that right, to those who were dead in so cruel a manner, would have only complicated things more.

So we can strike off the Machiavellian cunning part off it. Re incapacity the SIT has already dealt with it and has given a clean chit to his act of bringing the bodies to Ahd from Godhra. Now sir, you who professes the supreme faith in the rule of law, would certainly be aware of that.


Idealist? Utopian world? The British and independent India after that had developed a careful procedure for dealing with communal strife. This procedure was very well known in Gujarat, especially after the election of the policeman, Jaspal Singh, whose election represented one clear and distinct step forward for the saffronisation of Gujarat.

Ha....Looks like then that "careful procedure" was not so careful after all given the proliferation of communal riots for the flimsiest of reasons that marked North Indian landscape after independence and even before independence (Direct Action day).

You sir have made up your mind that Modi was indeed the agent provocateur and you are spinning your argument to suit that. It doesn't work like that.
 
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Of Lies, More Lies and Sangh-Speak

More sterotyping and propagandising..


You forgot to add murdered mysteriously, after his revelations of these facts. You forgot to mention that his father, a long-time RSS supporter, accused Modi of being behind his son's death.

I can accuse you of being a blue blooded alien from Mars. But then they are just accusations and unless concretely proved they are worthless.

Meanwhile in real world, Haren Pandya murder: CBI found no evidence of political hand - India - DNA

The day any court of law rules that Modiji was behind the killing of Haren Pandya, you can write to me. Postage I will pay.


Returning to the facts behind whom Pandya spoke to, and if or not he did so with any personal knowledge or not, let us examine the facts.

From India Today, rather than a blog, and from Hindustan Times:

Haren Pandya spoke of Narendra Modi complicity in riots: Former HC judge : West News - India Today

Did SIT ignore Haren Pandya testimony? - Hindustan Times

Check for yourself how reputed and respectable judges of a high court bore testimony to Pandya having given this testimony before he was killed, and how, btw, these reports thereby automatically became 'hearsay' evidence.

It is not safe, under the rule of administrative expediency that you pleaded for a while back, as a substitute for the rule of law, to come up with evidence against Modi. You may suffer severe consequences.

Also read for yourself how the SIT has taken a perverted approach to its investigation, by failing to approach damaging witnesses, by failing to take notice of damaging testimony, and by failing to give access to information in its custody to those seeking clarification on any point of the happenings during the riots.



As is clear from the publication above, Pandya spoke to the fact-finding commission that was first on the scene, and that early defection from the ranks provoked murderous rage on the part of someone. Here we need to apply the legal principle of Cui bono, who benefitted by Haren Pandya's murder?


You just don't get it..do you ?

How much credible is this alleged testimony of HP when he could not even get who were present in that meeting correctly ? When he doesn't even get the people attending the meet correctly, how can anyone be sure that he got the 'words' correctly, and that too in the intended context ?

Anyway let me bust once and for all how this cabal, The Citizen's Tribunal on the Gujarat carnage, is politically motivated and how these allegations of HP testifying to them are plain false.

This is the CT for Gujarat report dated Nov 22 2002:

The list of politicians named as accused in the violence by those who appeared before the tribunal include the Home Minister, Gordhan Zadaphiya, MLAs Maya Kodnani Ashok Bhatt and Prahalad Ghosa and former Minister Haren Pandya.

The Hindu : 'Report not politically motivated'

Now the funny thing is Justice Suresh claims that Haren Pandya testified before him on 13th May 2002.

Suresh said the evidence of the tribunal given to the SIT - on the Modi's alleged instructions to the police to teach Muslims a lesson, hours after the Godhra train attack - was based on what was told to them by Pandya on May 13, 2002.

Probe commission indicts Modi: Cops gave Hindus free hand - www.daily.bhaskar.com

I dont think Haren Pandya was such a fool or such a saint to disclose his own role in violence or if somebody else was to have accused him, again it was unlikely he would have provided his testimony without any sort of 'deal' as they call it.

The bottom line - it's always "he said to me", "I said to him", "we both said to the others"..allegations that have not yet been proved in a court of law or in the SC appointed SIT.

Now you are free to damn the SIT saying they wantonly disregarded the evidence, but then that would stretch into the realm of conspiracy theories, whereby mind invents its own justifications if things don't go the anticipated way - something like few of our Pak friends claiming the WC Semifinal was fixed by BCCI.

Also I have seen you sir, claiming for everything, that "there are evidences"...when will they be revealed..? Or as Rehman Malik says, someone is waiting for the right time ?
 
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For instance:

"...Sanjiv Bhatt shared information and documentary evidence with SIT which proposes the real nature of events that led to the incident of burning of the S-6 coach of the Sabarmati Express at Godhra on 27 February 2002 and the larger conspiracy and official orchestration behind the subsequent Gujarat riots of 2002.[7].Mr.Bhatt has deposed before the Supreme Court constituted Special Investigation Team (SIT), G.T.Nanavati- Akshay Mehta panel(which was formed by Gujarat state Government) and National commission of minorities (NCM) and offered his valuable testimony related to Godhra riots especially on what transpired in the 27 Feb 2002 meeting held at Mr.Modi&#8217;s residence. He had submitted scores of documents to prove the inaction of police officers, total breakdown of administrative machinery at the behest of then CM Mr.Modi. His affidavit in SC blew the lid off Mr.Modi&#8217;s government&#8217;s commission and omission on Godhra riots. His starling revelation on Mr.Haren Pandya&#8217;s murder was another wonderful action to unmask the gruesome murder..."

Ahhh Sanjeev Bhatt..the blue eyed boy of the Congress.

Before I come with a detailed reply please relish on this.

Trail of e-mails expose Bhatt
 
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OK seniors just one question....

If Modi is culprit, why CBI is not doing any thing against him? I mean congress is ruling in center & in recent times we saw many big guns in tihar in very short time...

If the chair of CM is main hurdle then why didn`t this hurdle stop taking any action against Mr. Reddy?

Even the Home Minister of India is on the scanner @ this time ...

and mind it CBI is totally under the wing of congress president Sonia Gandhi... do you all think she`s supporting Modi??
 
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