Tejas grounds Medium Combat Aircraft project

[Dillinger]

@Dillinger:
Are All LSP's are fitted with ELTA-2032-MMR and after logging more than 2000 test flights,why they have not tested BVR AAM till now?

Nope not all..didn't give me a number..I think he didn't want to if you get my drift..no idea on the LRAAM test yet..but I guess extensive weapons qualifications will be an ongoing process.

 

[sancho]

It would be better to start project with intent to export. neither project will be delayed nor trouble to gov. or IAF.
I don't know why "Sancho" had stated that IAF not interested in AMCA. though it would be better fighter to fill the gape of Mig-21. Strongly believe need to change Mig-21, Mig-27 and all Jaguars.

Actually I didn't said IAF is not interested, but that they don't need it, since there is no fighter to replace for them other than the Jags, but you don't need another fighter type for that, since FGFA and AURA will be in production then as well. AMCA is not a requirement by IAF, but a proposal by ADA/DRDO, which MoD wanted to sanction and fund. IAF obviously won't say no to a project for them, that they don't have to fund now, but their aim is FGFA and as the Air Chief said recently, let them develop it, them we see if it's 5th gen or not. I guess that tells enough about IAFs commitment into AMCA for now right?
That's exactly why AMCA makes only sense for IN, because they have no alternative and would fully commit themselfs into it.

@S-DUCT @sancho @Abingdonboy @arp2041

Ok I talked to a particular individual and I tired to get some very specific answers...

There is no simple answer for this, since the reports are not clear. We know that Kaveri has overweight, don't offer enough thrust in the configuration that was planned for LCA and possibly have some reliabilty issues with certain parts. It's still far from being a mature option and to achieve the goal and that's why it's a failure so far, although we surely gained some know how and experience.
The MMR is even more complicated, since there are hardly any reliable infos available about it. We know that Elta was approached for certain radar modes, which reportedly might be taken over from the EL 2032. However, if that was all the problem, we would have integrated the radar long ago and would have even tested BVR missiles yet. However, it seems that there must be more issues and that the MK1 will come with of the shelf EL 2032s only. Recent reports even suggest that the EL 2032 will be used in the Darin 3 upgrade for the Jaguars, which again proves my point, that we should have made a licence production deal for this radar long ago and focused on the development of an AESA only, at best with Israeli help.

 

[selvan33]

@Dillinger:
Are All LSP's are fitted with ELTA-2032-MMR and after logging more than 2000 test flights,why they have not tested BVR AAM till now?

From2007 onwards our tejas sucessfully test fired the R 73 short range air to air missiles. but for BVRAAM we are going for rafael's python derby variant, a BVR medium range air to air missile. the delivery of missile expected on dec.2012. but later no more informations about that deal.

 

[Anony]

It would be better to start project with intent to export. neither project will be delayed nor trouble to gov. or IAF.
I don't know why "Sancho" had stated that IAF not interested in AMCA. though it would be better fighter to fill the gape of Mig-21. Strongly believe need to change Mig-21, Mig-27 and all Jaguars.

IAF has a need of AMCA post 2025 or 2030 and will need it badly when Mig 27 and jaguar will retire follow by the retirement of Mig 29 post 2030. FGFA will surely fill the gap but it will be used as a heavy weight fighter. IAF need in between 250 - 300 fighters in medium weight category. Apart of 126 Rafale, IAF will still has a requirement of 150+ odd fighters in medium weight category.

Though I agree with the point that AMCA should be designed first keeping IN in mind and then change it to IAF requirement, because IAF won't mind if AMCA get slip of 2025 timeline and arrive at 2030. But it is IN, which need a dedicated 5th gen fighter to fly from its deck and will need it badly because J-31 of China will get ready before 2025 and IN will need AMCA to keep its power prowess at Sea.

 

[MilSpec]

AHA.... I think indian news papers have a text book formula to write a LCA bashing article every fortnight when they run out of any relevant topics. As an assignment I think every journalist in India writes a LCA failure or mig 21 vintage article as a backup article, to submit after a late nightdrinking session on the weekend.

There is nothing relevant in the article than the age old RAC pleasing rhetoric which mandates more sukhoi's or migs. LCA mk2 is heading in the right direction, I think until the LCA mk2 flies ADA/Mod/IAF/HAL all need to keep it under wraps.

 

[Sergi]

AHA.... I think indian news papers have a text book formula to write a LCA bashing article every fortnight when they run out of any relevant topics. As an assignment I think every journalist in India writes a LCA failure or mig 21 vintage article as a backup article, to submit after a late nightdrinking session on the weekend.

There is nothing relevant in the article than the age old RAC pleasing rhetoric which mandates more sukhoi's or migs. LCA mk2 is heading in the right direction, I think until the LCA mk2 flies ADA/Mod/IAF/HAL all need to keep it under wraps.

Congratulations new Jr. TT

Two questions
1. Your thoughts on holding AMCA project
2. Is it true LCA need 3 day servicing before second sortie

 

[sancho]

IAF has a need of AMCA post 2025 or 2030 and will need it badly when Mig 27 and jaguar will retire follow by the retirement of Mig 29 post 2030.

Mig 27s are already being phased out by the MKI, only 2 x squads were upgraded but it seems that even they might be replaced earlier than expected by Super 30s now. The Mig 29s and M2Ks get a life extention for 10 to 15 years at max and will be replaced by FGFA in numbers, that's why only Jaguars will be left beyond 2025 to be replaced until around 2035 the MKI needs replacements again.

 

[MilSpec]

Congratulations new Jr. TT

Two questions
1. Your thoughts on holding AMCA project
2. Is it true LCA need 3 day servicing before second sortie

Thanks!!!

My personal thoughts on AMCA : The project should be scrapped!!!! There is no additional advantage that AMCA brings to the table that PMF/FGFA doesn't. We should put all the funding for AMCA into developing the joint program with RAC for PAKFA/FGFA, and deploy it in large numbers. Instead of having 50 PAKFA's and 200 FGFA/PMF along with 200 additional AMCA's we should deploy 400 FGFA's. It will drive down the cost's of FGFA, it will bring commonality to the table and will make India an export hub for the program too.

3 days for servicing the current crop of LCA is exceptionally good, There is an immense amount of telemetry and data acquisition setup that goes into these test flight, 3 days is almost better than international standards...everything from hydraulic pressure, control surface deflection, response time, strain levels, engine performance, LLID's, need to be monitored realtime, If HAL/ADA is doing it within 3 days.. that is extremely good!!!!!!

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

2. Is it true LCA need 3 day servicing before second sortie

No.

LCA Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2125 Test Flights Successfully. (17-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-363,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-160,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2131 Test Flights Successfully. (20-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-259,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-164,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

 

[Dillinger]

Thanks!!!

My personal thoughts on AMCA : The project should be scrapped!!!! There is no additional advantage that AMCA brings to the table that PMF/FGFA doesn't. We should put all the funding for AMCA into developing the joint program with RAC for PAKFA/FGFA, and deploy it in large numbers. Instead of having 50 PAKFA's and 200 FGFA/PMF along with 200 additional AMCA's we should deploy 400 FGFA's. It will drive down the cost's of FGFA, it will bring commonality to the table and will make India an export hub for the program too.

3 days for servicing the current crop of LCA is exceptionally good, There is an immense amount of telemetry and data acquisition setup that goes into these test flight, 3 days is almost better than international standards...everything from hydraulic pressure, control surface deflection, response time, strain levels, engine performance, LLID's, need to be monitored realtime, If HAL/ADA is doing it within 3 days.. that is extremely good!!!!!!

But we are yet to see any definitive movement on the AESA radar for the MK.2 beyond the fact that Astra microwave states that it has provided a set of T/R module arrays for the radar in question. Any idea what's the status on that?

Anyway the new DDP is set to take away the exclusive MRO contract rights of the DPSUs..it mandates that private companies will also now bid for MRO contracts from OEMs and that a secure system will be established for the required M-TOT to be handed over to said private companies if they win. How bad will this hit the DPSUs?

 

[Dillinger]

@sancho What do you make of Astra's statement that it has provided the T/R modules for the AESA radar..if we can do that then what's the need for a foreign consultant or jv? I mean we built one for the DRDO AEW&C.....

 

[sancho]

Thanks!!!

My personal thoughts on AMCA : The project should be scrapped!!!! There is no additional advantage that AMCA brings to the table that PMF/FGFA doesn't. We should put all the funding for AMCA into developing the joint program with RAC for PAKFA/FGFA, and deploy it in large numbers. Instead of having 50 PAKFA's and 200 FGFA/PMF along with 200 additional AMCA's we should deploy 400 FGFA's. It will drive down the cost's of FGFA, it will bring commonality to the table and will make India an export hub for the program too.

Exactly, add AURAs for strikes and think more on Indian upgrade possibilities of MKI, Rafale and LCA, because they are here to stay for a long time too!

@sancho What do you make of Astra's statement that it has provided the T/R modules for the AESA radar..if we can do that then what's the need for a foreign consultant or jv? I mean we built one for the DRDO AEW&C.....

Having build an AWACS radar array and a fighter radar are 2 different things, moreover we have no practical response about the performance of the radar, or if it is fully integrated by now. The EMB 145 used at Aero India still had the mock up sensors only. So unless we know how good the radar is, there is nothing gained yet and same go's for the puls doppler MMR and the AESA MMR, only because we might have developed the modules, doesn't mean we have fully developed a working radar yet. If the puls doppler MMR is not ready yet, I highly have doubts on the AESA being ready in time, one reason why I prefer to use Rafales AESA for MK2 as well, since it's ready now and would be produced in India anyway. A proven indigenous AESA then could replace Zhuk MEs in Mig 29Ks, instead of going for another Russian radar in a high costs upgrade again. But that only works if we get over our pride and can live with an Indian AESA on a Russian fighter, instead of LCA.

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

IAF has a need of AMCA post 2025 or 2030 and will need it badly when Mig 27 and jaguar will retire follow by the retirement of Mig 29 post 2030. FGFA will surely fill the gap but it will be used as a heavy weight fighter. IAF need in between 250 - 300 fighters in medium weight category. Apart of 126 Rafale, IAF will still has a requirement of 150+ odd fighters in medium weight category.

Though I agree with the point that AMCA should be designed first keeping IN in mind and then change it to IAF requirement, because IAF won't mind if AMCA get slip of 2025 timeline and arrive at 2030. But it is IN, which need a dedicated 5th gen fighter to fly from its deck and will need it badly because J-31 of China will get ready before 2025 and IN will need AMCA to keep its power prowess at Sea.

Two 5th generation platform with same capabilities, AMCA gives no operational advantage over FGFA,
to replace aging fleet of Mig 27 and jags more advance platforms are in oven, also AURA UcaV project is underway to complement IAF strike package.

IN still missing a dedicate 5th gen platform,

 

[Storm Force]

Bar China and USA no nation can afford. Two fifth generation fighter projects post 2020

 

[Genesis]

Bar China and USA no nation can afford. Two fifth generation fighter projects post 2020

I think India can afford it but whether it will be in time is another thing all together. How long would it take, I'm not sure how keen the Americans are in selling 5th gen engines.

As to indigenous development that would take time. Though I got to say no time like the present and better late than never.