Tayyip Erdoan: “We will raise a religious generation”

[mehmeTcc]

@user1 Idiot people like forummurat doesn't want to understand but there is no religion or emotions in politics. There is only interests. AKP is doing politics for their interests, not for "Islamic Unity" or "sharia" things.

Actually in Turkey no one will buy Murat's thoughts.

 

[Selim I]

With respect, I disagree with the crux of the post.

It is hadeeth which need verification from Quran , not vice versa. Quran is our sole Guidance, Hadith is only complimentary (like how to pray, how to fast etc). Most Hadiths were collected 200+ years after the death of God's Apostle (pbuh) and many have been fabricated for political purpose and many have been altered due to shortness of memory. Will you remember what I say to you after 20 years? If you tell your son, will they remember for 40 years? EDIT: Note that by saing this I am not saying that we should not follow our Prophet (pbuh). Those Ayats don't tell us to follow all hadiths, but if we take the overall context in view, we can see that it tells us to view Hadiths as only complimentary to Quran. Quran should be the sole guidance, hadith only complimentary (like how to pray, how to fast, how to go to pilgrimage etc)

I didn't claim otherwise. Qur'an comes before anything else, and our Prophet (pbuh) tought us how to apply the rulings of Allah (swt).

Brother, that's why we have Saheeh Hadiths.

Saheeh Hadith's contains that: Each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion; he should be known to be truthful in his narrating, to understand what he narrates, to know how a different expression can alter the meaning, and report the wording of the hadith verbatim, not only its meaning. This is because if he does not know how a different expression can change the whole meaning, he will not know if he has changed what is lawful into what is prohibited. Hence, if he reports the hadith according to its wording, no change of meaning will be found at all. Moreover, he should be a good memoriser if he happens to report from his memory, or a good preserver of his writings if he happens to report from them. He should agree with the narrations of the huffaz (leading authorities in hadith), if he reports something which they do also. He should not be a Mudallis, who narrates from someone he met something he did not hear, nor should he report from the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) contrary to what reliable sources have reported from him. In addition, the one who is above him (in the isnad) should be of the same quality, [and so on,] until the hadith goes back uninterrupted to the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) or any authority below him.

These criterias prevents uncertainties of the hadith being true or false. Hence Saheeh (Turkish: Sahih, yani gercek).

Also, Ibn al-Salah, however, defines a Sahih hadith more precisely by saying:
"A Sahih hadith is the one which has a continuous isnad, made up of reporters of trustworthy memory from similar authorities, and which is found to be free from any irregularities (i.e. in the text) or defects (i.e. in the isnad)."

For those who doesn't know what Isnad is, look it up.
[/QUOTE]

Selim I

Bakara 2/2:
Sahih International
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah.

Yes? Did you finish your post? You were talking about why do we pray 5 times a day, and where does it say we should pray it. And I replied to you. I don't know why you suddenly brought up this Ayah.

 

[user1]

With respect, I disagree with the crux of the post.

It is hadeeth which need verification from Quran , not vice versa. Quran is our sole Guidance, Hadith is only complimentary (like how to pray, how to fast etc). Most Hadiths were collected 200+ years after the death of God's Apostle (pbuh) and many have been fabricated for political purpose and many have been altered due to shortness of memory. Will you remember what I say to you after 20 years? If you tell your son, will they remember for 40 years? EDIT: Note that by saing this I am not saying that we should not follow our Prophet (pbuh). Those Ayats don't tell us to follow all hadiths, but if we take the overall context in view, we can see that it tells us to view Hadiths as only complimentary to Quran. Quran should be the sole guidance, hadith only complimentary (like how to pray, how to fast, how to go to pilgrimage etc)

And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful. (4:64)

[Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing. (6:114-115)

And We have certainly presented to the people in this Qur'an from every [kind of] example. But, [O Muhammad], if you should bring them a sign, the disbelievers will surely say, "You [believers] are but falsifiers." (30:58)



Sorry! Edited the post.

Agree 100%.

Let me add that all the Wisdom belongs to Allah (SWT). There is a reason why he adds or omits anything from the Quran. If the method for ablution is given in detail in Quran then definitely cleanliness is high on the Divine agenda, but if the method of prayer is not mentioned at all then definitely we are given a choice we can pray in the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) or could pray in any manner as long as we fulfil the obligations i.e. acknowledge that Allah is the only Supreme Being and request guidance from him.

 

[King Solomon]

I didn't claim otherwise. Qur'an comes before anything else, and our Prophet (pbuh) tought us how to apply the rulings of Allah (swt).

Brother, that's why we have Saheeh Hadiths.

Saheeh Hadith's contains that: Each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion; he should be known to be truthful in his narrating, to understand what he narrates, to know how a different expression can alter the meaning, and report the wording of the hadith verbatim, not only its meaning. This is because if he does not know how a different expression can change the whole meaning, he will not know if he has changed what is lawful into what is prohibited. Hence, if he reports the hadith according to its wording, no change of meaning will be found at all. Moreover, he should be a good memoriser if he happens to report from his memory, or a good preserver of his writings if he happens to report from them. He should agree with the narrations of the huffaz (leading authorities in hadith), if he reports something which they do also. He should not be a Mudallis, who narrates from someone he met something he did not hear, nor should he report from the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) contrary to what reliable sources have reported from him. In addition, the one who is above him (in the isnad) should be of the same quality, [and so on,] until the hadith goes back uninterrupted to the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) or any authority below him.

These criterias prevents uncertainties of the hadith being true or false. Hence Saheeh (Turkish: Sahih, yani gercek).

Also, Ibn al-Salah, however, defines a Sahih hadith more precisely by saying:
"A Sahih hadith is the one which has a continuous isnad, made up of reporters of trustworthy memory from similar authorities, and which is found to be free from any irregularities (i.e. in the text) or defects (i.e. in the isnad)."

Yes brother I do agree with you somewhat. However, I can see that the "sahih" hadith books like Bukhari themselves contain a lot of contradictions. Moreover, some "Sahih" hadiths (from Bukhari, Muslim etc) vilify the character of our Prophet (pbuh) in an unmentionable manner whereas the Quran says that our Prophet (pbuh) possesses the "most exalted character". I can bring tons of these contradictions in "Sahih" hadiths but I do not think it would be appropriate here to start a debate here (off topic). But these many contradictions only goes on to prove that what we deem as "sahih" may not be so "sahih" after all despite the apparent precautions been taken.

I do not blame Imam Bukhari though. He collected Hadiths 200-250 years after Prophet (pbuh)'s death and by then these Hadiths have passed several generations. These are bound to be forgotten or altered in the meanwhile in the memory and writings which passed multiple generations. Some Umayaad rulers like Yazid has been known to corrupt Hadiths deliberately by their power and influence.

For the above reasons, I follow the Quran as the sole guidance for my faith. And Hadith as only a complementary guidance. I think this is appropriate as the Quran also instructs us to follow it this way.

Besides, if you come to think of it: It is only the Quran which can unite Muslims. Shias, Sunnis, Wahabis, Deobandis, Sufis etc all of them follow the Quran. Their difference is only on the Hadiths they follow eg. Shias have some sources which Sunnis don't follow. Shias reject some narrators which are approved by Sunnis.

Therefore, I prefer to follow the Quran as my sole guidance and Hadith only as complementary to the Quran, as instructed by the Quran itself.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

Yes? Did you finish your post? You were talking about why do we pray 5 times a day, and where does it say we should pray it. And I replied to you. I don't know why you suddenly brought up this Ayah.

Read S-19's ayah. There reads: why do you seek guidance other than Quran.

Read Bakara 79: woe to those who write their own book and says "Allah told this"

 

[user1]

@user1 Idiot people like forummurat doesn't want to understand but there is no religion or emotions in politics. There is only interests. AKP is doing politics for their interests, not for "Islamic Unity" or "sharia" things.

Actually in Turkey no one will buy Murat's thoughts.

"The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers..." - This quote will definitely make Erdogan's pants on fire.

For every Muslim, Islam is a complete way of life, for an individual and for a society. Last time I knew, Turkey was a predominantly Muslim country. There will be many who will believe in Murat's thoughts.

 

[Selim I]

Read S-19's ayah. There reads: why do you seek guidance other than Quran.

Read Bakara 79: woe to those who write their own book and says "Allah told this"

Those Ayahs talks about other books i.e Holy Books, or another religious scriptures besides Qur'an. Or books who contradicts Qur'an. A Saheeh Hadith is not a book, it is the teachings of our Prophet (pbuh).

Qur'an says follow the Prophet.
As I just mentioned in Surah al-Hashr:

“… and whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it…” [al-Hashr 59:7]

And Surah al-Nahl:

“… and We have also sent down to you (O Muhammad) the reminder and the advice (the Qur'an), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them and that they may give thought.” [al-Nahl 16:44]

 

[Deno]

@Deno
You seem to have a very short memory term. It was actually Ptex who suddenly came with this comment. So again you are lying or you are just adjusting the "truth" according to your ways. Worst of all you thanked this post, so how can you forget something which you thanked a couple of hours ago?

Question was who brought the Jews as subject... Does Ptex post include anything Jewish? The subject of Israel and Jews came with this post... Your own post...

Why do Israel not separate the synagogue from the state then? You don't even have a constitution because religious Jews criticized that no human law could replace Tanakh, Talmud aka God's law. Even today there is no Israeli constitution because of its extreme religiosity.

Edit: you are truly a hypocrit, and those who thank your post without doing a proper research about Israel are indeed bigger hypocrits.

And you still couldn't answer my post

I protested for lifting the scar ban... I wonder did you ever do that in Turkey? Did you ever contribute to lifting the scarf ban and again you talk BS again with no knowledge of Turkey... Really, what do you think to achive with your ignorant and ridiculus posts?

 

[Alienoz_TR]

Those Ayahs talks about other books i.e Holy Books, or another religious scriptures besides Qur'an. Or books who contradicts Qur'an. A Saheeh Hadith is not a book, it is the teachings of our Prophet (pbuh).

Qur'an says follow the Prophet.
As I just mentioned in Surah al-Hashr:

“… and whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it…” [al-Hashr 59:7]

And Surah al-Nahl:

“… and We have also sent down to you (O Muhammad) the reminder and the advice (the Qur'an), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them and that they may give thought.” [al-Nahl 16:44]

About Whatever the messenger gives: Did The Prophet Muhammed give you something personally? Or did some mufessirs give you something?

About sending the advice:
Enam 6/65
Sahih International
...... Look how We diversify the signs (vahiy) that they might understand.

Enam 6/66
Sahih International
But your people have denied it while it is the truth. Say, "I am not over you a manager."

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Question was who brought the Jews as subject... Does Ptex post include anything Jewish? The subject of Israel and Jews came with this post... Your own post...




And you still couldn't answer my post

Of course the subject of Israel must come whenever a Jew comes here and tries to bash Islam. He critisizies religion as a part of system, while in his own country there is not even a constitution because religious Jews did not allow it to happen, since God's law is above human law. But of course people like you who is only thinking in very simplistic terms are not able to comprehend that whenever someone tries to critisize something he should look at his own country and the sufferings his country carries on their Muslim population. That is why it was hypocritical in the highest order. While you thanking his posts is even of greater hypocritical character.

And your post:

Because Muslims think all the bad things happened to them because of Zionists.... And thats why Jews became a subject on this thread... >.<

is even a bigger lie or joke. Who said the things which happens in Turkey happened because of zionists? There is not such things in this thread, so keep your lies to your self please.

About the scarf ban.
Since i live in Denmark i did not attend the protests etc. But at least i don't side with zionist jews in an open international forum and thank their posts. What you are doing is beyond any comprehension.

 

[Selim I]

Yes brother I do agree with you somewhat. However, I can see that the "sahih" hadith books like Bukhari themselves contain a lot of contradictions. Moreover, some "Sahih" hadiths (from Bukhari, Muslim etc) vilify the character of our Prophet (pbuh) in an unmentionable manner whereas the Quran says that our Prophet (pbuh) possesses the "most exalted character". I can bring tons of these contradictions in "Sahih" hadiths but I do not think it would be appropriate here to start a debate here (off topic). But these many contradictions only goes on to prove that what we deem as "sahih" may not be so "sahih" after all despite the apparent precautions been taken.

I do not blame Imam Bukhari though. He collected Hadiths 200-250 years after Prophet (pbuh)'s death and by then these Hadiths have passed several generations. These are bound to be forgotten or altered in the meanwhile in the memory and writings which passed multiple generations. Some Umayaad rulers like Yazid has been known to corrupt Hadiths deliberately by their power and influence.

For the above reasons, I follow the Quran as the sole guidance for my faith. And Hadith as only a complementary guidance. I think this is appropriate as the Quran also instructs us to follow it this way.

Besides, if you come to think of it: It is only the Quran which can unite Muslims. Shias, Sunnis, Wahabis, Deobandis, Sufis etc all of them follow the Quran. Their difference is only on the Hadiths they follow eg. Shias have some sources which Sunnis don't follow. Shias reject some narrators which are approved by Sunnis.

Therefore, I prefer to follow the Quran as my sole guidance and Hadith only as complementary to the Quran, as instructed by the Quran itself.

There might be some contradictions in Bukhari too, since the repporters are all humans. But having Saheeh, is eliminating most of the possibilities of contradictions. But still, some fabricated Hadith's might get through to Saheeh. I can't disagree with you here.

But you also have to know that, there are not "tons" of contradictions, if you say that, you wouldn't follow any Saheeh, since claiming around half of them contradictions to each other, will make the other half untrue.
And if we exclude all the Hadith's you know what will happen. Afterall the Qur'an comes from Muhammad (pbuh), it's from his mouth, it's from his lips. It's like denying the message by denying the messenger. I know you didn't mean all this, but since it is now a subject talking about these matters is somehow crucial. Since some people might only follow the Qur'an by denying all the teachings of our Prophet (pbuh). Afterall the explanation of the Qur'an and the explanation of Islam comes from Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

 

[King Solomon]

There might be some contradictions in Bukhari too, since the repporters are all humans. But having Saheeh, is eliminating most of the possibilities of contradictions. But still, some fabricated Hadith's might get through to Saheeh. I can't disagree with you here.

But you also have to know that, there are not "tons" of contradictions, if you say that, you wouldn't follow any Saheeh, since claiming around half of them contradictions to each other, will make the other half untrue.
And if we exclude all the Hadith's you know what will happen. Afterall the Qur'an comes from Muhammad (pbuh), it's from his mouth, it's from his lips. It's like denying the message by denying the messenger. I know you didn't mean all this, but since it is now a subject talking about these matters is somehow crucial. Since some people might only follow the Qur'an by denying all the teachings of our Prophet (pbuh). Afterall the explanation of the Qur'an and the explanation of Islam comes from Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Yes brother believe me or not indeed there are tons of contradictions between different "Sahih" Hadiths, and between "Sahih" Hadiths and Quran from the "Sahih" traditions. And believe me there are such and such "Sahih" Hadiths which if I mention here, you would never follow Bukhari out of your respect for our Prophet Mohammed (pbuh).

I'm not saying we should reject all Hadiths. I have utmost respect for our Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and I just recognise the alteration of his messages due to a very long time lag in between + other issues. My point is that we should take the Quran as our sole guidance and Hadiths as only complementary to what is being said in the Quran (eg. how to pray, how to pilgrimage, how to fast etc). This has been instructed by the Quran itself.

 

[Deno]

Of course the subject of Israel must come whenever a Jew comes here and tries to bash Islam. He critisizies religion as a part of system, while in his own country there is not even a constitution because religious Jews did not allow it to happen, since God's law is above human law. But of course people like you who is only thinking in very simplistic terms are not able to comprehend that whenever someone tries to critisize something he should look at his own country and the sufferings his country carries on their Muslim population. That is why it was hypocritical in the highest order. While you thanking his posts is even of greater hypocritical character.

And your post: is even a bigger lie or joke. Who said the things which happens in Turkey happened because of zionists? There is not such things in this thread, so keep your lies to your self please.

About the scarf ban.
Since i live in Denmark i did not attend the protests etc. But at least i don't side with zionist jews in an open international forum and thank their posts. What you are doing is beyond any comprehension.

Then no Turk or Muslim can critisize Israel... Turks because of the stuation with Kurds where around 3 million people were forced to miggrate and other muslim countries because they all have more problems with opression minorities...

And What he said was a fact... Appreciating someone pointing out a fact became a hypocrisy? How?

Then tell me why only %10 of the Turks feel possitive about Jews... Or majority of the muslims in the world feel hatred towards Jews?

I have nothing against Israel and Jews other than Israels right wing goverment... Why would I boycott them from my precious and priceless '' thanks '' which actually worth nothing? I argued with Jewish forumers but I can also be civil towards people I don't agree with... Does that make me a tratior? What kind of sick logic do you have?

''Because you thanked a Jew's post, you have done something beyond any comprehension.''

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Then no Turk or Muslim can critisize Israel... Turks because of the stuation with Kurds where around 3 million people were forced to miggrate and other muslim countries because they all have more problems with opression minorities...

And What he said was a fact... Appreciating someone pointing out a fact became a hypocrisy? How?

Then tell me why only %10 of the Turks feel possitive about Jews... Or majority of the muslims in the world feel hatred towards Jews?

I have nothing against Israel and Jews other than Israels right wing goverment... Why would I boycott them from my precious and priceless '' thanks '' which actually worth nothing? I argued with Jewish forumers but I can also be civil towards people I don't agree with... Does that make me a tratior? What kind of sick logic do you have?

''Because you thanked a Jew's post, you have done something beyond any comprehension.''

What makes you despicable in my eyes is that you don't have the enough capacity to understand that the same foummers you thank defend Israel's rights to murder Palestinians and steal their lands. Whereas there is not a single Turkish member here who defends to carry out bombing attacks on kurdish villages.

And about 2appreciating someone pointing a fact"

What about the PERSON who points out a fact supports his own country's religious system? While he comes here and slanders and tells us that Islam as a system fails. Let me cut it into pieces, since you obviously have a hard time understanding it. What a person says is important if he is genuinly meaning it. But if his intention is to slander about Islam and tell us what a failure Muslims are, he is just here to trick weak minds like you. While his country steals lands and kills thousands of innocents EVEN TODAY just because they are Muslims. Turkish universities must be pretty low since they accept people like you.

 

[Selim I]

Yes brother believe me or not indeed there are tons of contradictions between different "Sahih" Hadiths, and between "Sahih" Hadiths and Quran from the "Sahih" traditions. And believe me there are such and such "Sahih" Hadiths which if I mention here, you would never follow Bukhari out of your respect for our Prophet Mohammed (pbuh).

I'm not saying we should reject all Hadiths. I have utmost respect for our Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and I just recognise the alteration of his messages due to a very long time lag in between + other issues. My point is that we should take the Quran as our sole guidance and Hadiths as only complementary to what is being said in the Quran (eg. how to pray, how to pilgrimage, how to fast etc). This has been instructed by the Quran itself.

I don't disagree with you brother. I know we should take hadith's as teachings and explanations of the Qur'an. But I still don't think there are "tons" of them, might be due to my lack of knowledge, but I've heard from many scholars that Saheeh Hadith's are authentic. So before I can comment fully about this subject, I need to read more about the issue. And see what the general thought of the Sunni scholars is about this matter.