What's new

Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM

Status
Not open for further replies.
Lets get this generation stuff out of the way, cuz most of the time I see posts seeking explanation to the generations ... there is no "set" generation standard -- even the standards coming from the west employ different classifications ...

This is precisely the reason you have members juggling with whats the difference in between 4+/ 4++ and 4.5 generation fighters. The answer is these are two different classifications entirely ... The best thing to do is be simple about it ...

So here is the classification mostly used at this forum ... you have

-1st generation (includes fighters from the mid 1940's typically subsonic platforms like the F-86 or Mig-17's)
-2nd generation (includes fighters from the mid 50's to the early 60's which were supersonic such as the F-104 star fighter)
-3rd generation (includes the early multi role fighters from the mid 60's to the early 70's like the F-4)
-4th generation (includes multir-role fighters from yesterday's era like the F-16, Mirage 2000 etc.)
-4.5 generation (includes upgraded 4th fighters, which have some of the capabilities from 5th gen fighters, like reduced RCS's, sensor fusion, you have super cruise, advanced avionics, EW systems etc.)
-5th generation ( includes stealth platforms like the F-35, J-31, F-22,Pak-FA, J-20 etc.)


However the Chinese classification is a generation behind ... so if they are calling JF-17 a 3rd generation aircraft, it translates in to JF-17 being a 4th generation aircraft. Similarly they have the 4S standard for their 4th generation fighters (5th generation in western classification) ....
Thanks for the information, was looking for the difference.

Pakistan, Russia sign agreement for construction of North-South gas pipeline - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Here we go , Russia is getting closer to Pakistan day by day ?
Su-35 is coming next , what will our Indian friends can do about it ?
Beg Russia to not sign the deal, I know we should party by taking Modhi to a night club or something... ;)
 
.
Hope to have some good news whether it's SU or anything else though we have a lot of cards to choose smartly and PAF has proven the ability and intelligence so would choose in long term IN'SHA'ALLAH
 
.
Hope to have some good news whether it's SU or anything else though we have a lot of cards to choose smartly and PAF has proven the ability and intelligence so would choose in long term IN'SHA'ALLAH
I don't know what you call cards mate... and that too alot of them.... Rafael is gone eft is too expensive for paf so is f-15 latest version.... gripen as per ex ACM can't be handled by us due to complex technology involved.... sukhoi's I doubt that because of known facts.... j-11 series with Russian factor... so what we are left here are j-10s and f16s... yeah man they are lot of cards... Can you count them and come again
 
.
I don't know what you call cards mate... and that too alot of them.... Rafael is gone eft is too expensive for paf so is f-15 latest version.... gripen as per ex ACM can't be handled by us due to complex technology involved.... sukhoi's I doubt that because of known facts.... j-11 series with Russian factor... so what we are left here are j-10s and f16s... yeah man they are lot of cards... Can you count them and come again
Though i am new here and not expert with techs but as per my opinion after going through news and looking at rapid changes in rigion neither i believe that we will have EU or US tech as it needs pile and pile of money but still there are choices by going Chinese or Russia and also as PAK signed mature contract with Turkey in defence industry etc so when there are choices then there is a chance to make a smart move to have a win situation and PAF professionals knows well what to choose. Also CPEC made a drastic change in situation of rigion and definitely will boost our purchase of defence equipments as well.
 
.
Though i am new here and not expert with techs but as per my opinion after going through news and looking at rapid changes in rigion neither i believe that we will have EU or US tech as it needs pile and pile of money but still there are choices by going Chinese or Russia and also as PAK signed mature contract with Turkey in defence industry etc so when there are choices then there is a chance to make a smart move to have a win situation and PAF professionals knows well what to choose. Also CPEC made a drastic change in situation of rigion and definitely will boost our purchase of defence equipments as well.

We are here discussing fighter aircraft options paf has and not some defene cooperations... Defence cooperations mean nada if other country has nothing to offer you in context of paf urgent needs to induct a new platform.... long term agreed they are beneficial but remember we are using the term "urgent".... tell me what aircraft Turkey has currently to offer us on immediate basis?... tommorrow we may sign a cooperation deal with Nigeria but does that mean paf has increased the options of aircrafts it can acquire.... the reality is for fighter aircrafts there are no other countries than US China Russia and European and I have already informed you on how we have lost on 80 percent of the options.... as far always trusting on paf decisions is concerned just look out for what have we gotten in past 2 decades or so and what we have screwed up than do a comparison vis a vis matured deals and lost opportunities and ask yourself

The fact is paf has become a rumors agency where after every few months or years we hear about acquisitions from paf fanboys and paf herself and in the end we get nothing and this trend has started from 90s ... start from mirage 2000s then su27s then Rafaels than gripens then fc20s then j-11s now su-35s and in all that time what paf got were 18 f-16s...there are very few aircrafts left now about which we can say were not considered or so called bought (in dreams)

On a side note even paf has failed to take care of some costly acquisitions like saab2000... I mean just imagine millions of taxpayers dollars getting burned by some filthy moronic terrorists....
 
Last edited:
.
@Mani2020 a solution can be made for getting Su-35 class jet if Russia is not in position to sell those due to Indian pressure. Russia and China can jointly create a customize version of J-11D for Pakistan, bringing best of Chinese and Russian tech in one jet. This way both will be able to earn money and no issue from India too.
 
.
Well my friend we pay to govt for defence and other things but what our elected so called democratic does with that money is always about their own luxuries rather spending the right amount on defence so we can have right tool for PAF and all so it was always about the size of pockets so what u expect? Though it were never rumors but the truth can be seen even search F-16 deal with US and what happened there and who got how much kick back and so then the rumor fact will b cleared upon u. Rest about defence contracts etc will definitely effects somehow directly or indirectly u can say so also about choices we r getting into line finally though took time but it's like later is better then never. No offence and my apology in advance and in the last yes thread says to discuss that we r in deal with Russia for SU 35 and I just came in with my opinion and wishes.
 
.
This way both will be able to earn money and no issue from India too.

I totally agree with you on a customized J-11D with twin AL-117 engines. But India will still raise hell on that too as well. But even without the AL-117s, J-11D is formidable due to its stronger structure and lighter weight (extensive use of composites) lower RCS (extensive use of RAM) and a very powerful AESA radar and EW suite.
 
.
I totally agree with you on a customized J-11D with twin AL-117 engines. But India will still raise hell on that too as well. But even without the AL-117s, J-11D is formidable due to its stronger structure and lighter weight (extensive use of composites) lower RCS (extensive use of RAM) and a very powerful AESA radar and EW suite.
I am totally agree as there is always a solution though I want a dogfighter doing cobra can stop and turn around fast go stealth and supersonic with AESA BVR RAAM etc but after all I have to check my pocket and circumstances as well.
 
.
@Mani2020 a solution can be made for getting Su-35 class jet if Russia is not in position to sell those due to Indian pressure. Russia and China can jointly create a customize version of J-11D for Pakistan, bringing best of Chinese and Russian tech in one jet. This way both will be able to earn money and no issue from India too.
Yes mate this is one solution and there are solutions for everything considering paf's willingness to acquire any high tech aircraft.... I personally am a great fan of flanker family... but it all depends on how serious paf is..we have seen paf in past where it seemed they are negotiating just for the sake of it.... I hope so that some sense prevails this time and we induct some good fighter jet soon

I totally agree with you on a customized J-11D with twin AL-117 engines. But India will still raise hell on that too as well. But even without the AL-117s, J-11D is formidable due to its stronger structure and lighter weight (extensive use of composites) lower RCS (extensive use of RAM) and a very powerful AESA radar and EW suite.

It all depends on russia's willingness... India is not a problem as far as just engines are concerned as russia is providing us engines for jf17 rather the main issues is russia's fear from china that the later will copy it and make a clone of it like they did previously... there are two solutions for that either Russia May come up with a less capable variant of this engine and export it like they did in case of jf17 engines or they may ask China to pay x amount for every engine they produce as a clone or some kind of royalty fee
 
.
I totally agree with you on a customized J-11D with twin AL-117 engines. But India will still raise hell on that too as well. But even without the AL-117s, J-11D is formidable due to its stronger structure and lighter weight (extensive use of composites) lower RCS (extensive use of RAM) and a very powerful AESA radar and EW suite.

India can cry but cannot stop Russia doing it because they can say we are helping Chinese to upgrade their jets or just make this deal completely secret.
 
.
With growing Russia - Pakistan relationship , we are getting closer day by day & I'm getting certain that we will have SU- 35 deal very soon!

This is inevitable. Boeing and another manufacturer are going to be building / assembling aircrfts in India soon. That would result in India jump starting their own Civilian and Military aircrafts. So Russia is becoming a smaller fraction by the day in terms of India - US relations. So the Russians will need more markets.

With growing investments and business / strategic relationships with Pakistan, the logical next step is to become a weapon's supplier at a much larger scale and offset business lost to India, to some degree with Pakistan. That's any country and any business. Nothing special about it but it will get Pakistan newer tech.

Well my friend we pay to govt for defence and other things but what our elected so called democratic does with that money is always about their own luxuries rather spending the right amount on defence so we can have right tool for PAF

Please keep the politics out of this thread as the topic is different. To just set the stage right, for over 60 years, people have gotten wealthier and wealthier by the year in Pakistan by not paying taxes and cheating on the revenue that would otherwise go to the government of that time. So if there was 5 billion additional ACTUAL tax paid (a very small number, compared to the tax base that should've existed) back in the 60's, and it grew by 5% every year, starting the 90's, Pakistan would've passed Malaysia and Turkey in terms of growth.

The projects which the current government started 3 years ago, could've gotten started in the 90's or even before. Right now, you may have become a partner in the JSF program like Turkey. As Pakistan would've had decades of stable, growing economy and a system. In a Heart attack, your symptoms can start from Flu like, to a shooting pain in the arm to pain in the back. If you followed those symptoms, you may never treat the real issue, that's the Cardiac blockage. So you should ALWAYS be objective and look at the problems roots objectively. Not how you like to see it because your own political affiliations and propaganda purposes.

And list out a few cases where its a FACT (proven in the court) that the money that was supposed to be given to the PA or the PAF, was sent to buying "luxuries" for the government? In fact, the government hurt their own growth projections and cut down on a few projects to pay for the Zarb-e-Azb and for new weapon purchases. Your Army Chief, Gen. Shariff has actually become a big fan of NS. This is the first time in the history Pak Army and Civilians are working this closely and enjoying a shared vision to grow Pakistan. And no, Gen. Shariff or any general, isn't in the power to threat or put force NS out, or they are dictating to NS, before you make that claim. Its a real working relationship that has put the new Pakistan's foundation peacefully and the growth has started.

By 2020, Pakistan's defense budget will be around or at where Turkey is right now, around $ 16-18 billion. With plenty of additional funds available for high priority purchases as the government's savings account would be around $ 40-50 billion cash!!! Many industries spawning up, additional billions of investments coming in and CPEC starting to produce revenue also. Now that's how you turn around a country in a 5 year term :enjoy:
 
.
This is inevitable. Boeing and another manufacturer are going to be building / assembling aircrfts in India soon. That would result in India jump starting their own Civilian and Military aircrafts. So Russia is becoming a smaller fraction by the day in terms of India - US relations. So the Russians will need more markets.

With growing investments and business / strategic relationships with Pakistan, the logical next step is to become a weapon's supplier at a much larger scale and offset business lost to India, to some degree with Pakistan. That's any country and any business. Nothing special about it but it will get Pakistan newer tech.



Please keep the politics out of this thread as the topic is different. To just set the stage right, for over 60 years, people have gotten wealthier and wealthier by the year in Pakistan by not paying taxes and cheating on the revenue that would otherwise go to the government of that time. So if there was 5 billion additional ACTUAL tax paid (a very small number, compared to the tax base that should've existed) back in the 60's, and it grew by 5% every year, starting the 90's, Pakistan would've passed Malaysia and Turkey in terms of growth.

The projects which the current government started 3 years ago, could've gotten started in the 90's or even before. Right now, you may have become a partner in the JSF program like Turkey. As Pakistan would've had decades of stable, growing economy and a system. In a Heart attack, your symptoms can start from Flu like, to a shooting pain in the arm to pain in the back. If you followed those symptoms, you may never treat the real issue, that's the Cardiac blockage. So you should ALWAYS be objective and look at the problems roots objectively. Not how you like to see it because your own political affiliations and propaganda purposes.

And list out a few cases where its a FACT (proven in the court) that the money that was supposed to be given to the PA or the PAF, was sent to buying "luxuries" for the government? In fact, the government hurt their own growth projections and cut down on a few projects to pay for the Zarb-e-Azb and for new weapon purchases. Your Army Chief, Gen. Shariff has actually become a big fan of NS. This is the first time in the history Pak Army and Civilians are working this closely and enjoying a shared vision to grow Pakistan. And no, Gen. Shariff or any general, isn't in the power to threat or put force NS out, or they are dictating to NS, before you make that claim. Its a real working relationship that has put the new Pakistan's foundation peacefully and the growth has started.

By 2020, Pakistan's defense budget will be around or at where Turkey is right now, around $ 16-18 billion. With plenty of additional funds available for high priority purchases as the government's savings account would be around $ 40-50 billion cash!!! Many industries spawning up, additional billions of investments coming in and CPEC starting to produce revenue also. Now that's how you turn around a country in a 5 year term :enjoy:
Not true
The India Russia business still supercedes Russia's other deals by a huge margin......
It is gonna a take a while atleast 1.5 to 2 decade for that change to happen

How will your defence budget double from current 8 b usd to 16 billion usd in 5 years with 4 percent annual growth?
pretty optimistic you are i must say
 
.
This is inevitable. Boeing and another manufacturer are going to be building / assembling aircrfts in India soon. That would result in India jump starting their own Civilian and Military aircrafts. So Russia is becoming a smaller fraction by the day in terms of India - US relations. So the Russians will need more markets.

With growing investments and business / strategic relationships with Pakistan, the logical next step is to become a weapon's supplier at a much larger scale and offset business lost to India, to some degree with Pakistan. That's any country and any business. Nothing special about it but it will get Pakistan newer tech.



Please keep the politics out of this thread as the topic is different. To just set the stage right, for over 60 years, people have gotten wealthier and wealthier by the year in Pakistan by not paying taxes and cheating on the revenue that would otherwise go to the government of that time. So if there was 5 billion additional ACTUAL tax paid (a very small number, compared to the tax base that should've existed) back in the 60's, and it grew by 5% every year, starting the 90's, Pakistan would've passed Malaysia and Turkey in terms of growth.

The projects which the current government started 3 years ago, could've gotten started in the 90's or even before. Right now, you may have become a partner in the JSF program like Turkey. As Pakistan would've had decades of stable, growing economy and a system. In a Heart attack, your symptoms can start from Flu like, to a shooting pain in the arm to pain in the back. If you followed those symptoms, you may never treat the real issue, that's the Cardiac blockage. So you should ALWAYS be objective and look at the problems roots objectively. Not how you like to see it because your own political affiliations and propaganda purposes.

And list out a few cases where its a FACT (proven in the court) that the money that was supposed to be given to the PA or the PAF, was sent to buying "luxuries" for the government? In fact, the government hurt their own growth projections and cut down on a few projects to pay for the Zarb-e-Azb and for new weapon purchases. Your Army Chief, Gen. Shariff has actually become a big fan of NS. This is the first time in the history Pak Army and Civilians are working this closely and enjoying a shared vision to grow Pakistan. And no, Gen. Shariff or any general, isn't in the power to threat or put force NS out, or they are dictating to NS, before you make that claim. Its a real working relationship that has put the new Pakistan's foundation peacefully and the growth has started.

By 2020, Pakistan's defense budget will be around or at where Turkey is right now, around $ 16-18 billion. With plenty of additional funds available for high priority purchases as the government's savings account would be around $ 40-50 billion cash!!! Many industries spawning up, additional billions of investments coming in and CPEC starting to produce revenue also. Now that's how you turn around a country in a 5 year term :enjoy:


I did not mean to bring politics in here but wanted to clear out that it wasn't PAF since 90's but some unavoidable circumstances those of us stuck and took time but as it is said better later than never.




I totally agree with you on a customized J-11D with twin AL-117 engines. But India will still raise hell on that too as well. But even without the AL-117s, J-11D is formidable due to its stronger structure and lighter weight (extensive use of composites) lower RCS (extensive use of RAM) and a very powerful AESA radar and EW suite.

J 11-d beautiful indeed not just the shape but specs as well within available choices
 
.
Here's one surprising reason Russia might not want to pick a fight with US planes over Syria

The skies over Syria are dangerously crowded these days with the US, Russia, and the Assad regime all bombing various actors on vaguely opposite sides of the country's multidimensional conflict.

In both Iraq and Syria, the reality of overlapping aerial operations among countries with little geopolitical fondness toward one another has already led to claims that British aircraft have been authorized to engage Russian aircraft over Iraq if threatened.

The British government denied these reports, but they still underscore the possibility of confrontation between allied and Russian military aircraft.

Several presidential candidates,including Democratic front-runner and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, have called for an allied-enforced no-fly zone in northern Syria — a development that would be partly aimed at containing Russian operations.

In Politico, former State Department official Frederic Hof recently advocated a robust US response to any deliberate Russian provocation: "But if Russia seeks out armed confrontation with the United States in Syria, it would be a mistake for Washington to back down," Hof wrote.

"People like [Russian president Vladimir] Putin will push until they hit steel."

There's already been one alarming incident: According to AFP, Russia announced on October 14 that one of its planes had approached a US aircraft over Syria "for identification purposes," with one Russian official explaining that Russian aircraft "often come within visual recognition distance of US warplanes and drones."

So what would happen if Russian and US aircraft began shooting at one another over Syria?

air_su35b_knaapo_pic_lg-1.jpg

A Russian Su-35 Flanker.

One plausible answer comes from an unlikely source: David E. Hoffman's "The Billion Dollar Spy," a gripping account of Cold War spy Adolf Tolkachev.

In the early and mid-1980s, Tolkachev, who was the head of a Soviet weapons-research laboratory, gave the CIA specifications for the next decade's worth of Soviet combat-aircraft radar systems.

"The amazing thing is that Tolkachov was bringing us not only what was happening now but what would be happening 10 years from now," Hoffman told Business Insider in an interview earlier this year.

spy.jpg

Tolkachev allowed US military planners to peer into the future of Soviet aircraft capabilities.

Since the Soviet Union was the US' primary conventional foe, that information led the US to build specific counter-capabilities into its own aircraft — ways of evading advanced Soviet aircraft radar or of exploiting gaps in radar coverage.

"This intelligence went right into electronics that were deployed, but never mentioned in anyone’s National Intelligence Estimate," Hoffman explained to Business Insider.

This technological and intelligence edge is one of the reasons for the US' aerial superiority over Soviet-built combat aircraft since the fall of the Soviet Union.

During the 1991 Gulf War, while in "direct aerial combat over Iraq, the US Air Force downed every Soviet-built tactical fighter that it confronted," Hoffman writes, even though they were being flown by pilots from what was then one of the most formidable militaries in the Middle East at the time.

US pilots had a similarly perfect record when facing off against Yugoslavia's Soviet-built aircraft and air defenses during the 1990s Balkan conflicts.

"The record is stark," Hoffman writes. "For every six enemy aircraft air force pilots shot down in Korea, the United States lost one. In Vietnam, the United States lost one airplane for every two enemy planes shot down.

"Thus, the kill ratios went from six to one in Korea, and two to one in Vietnam, to 48-to-zero for the air force in the wars in Iraq and the Balkans."

As a partial result of Tolkachev's espionage, "The United States has enjoyed almost total air superiority over Soviet-built fighters for more than two decades," he writes.

The technical superiority that Tolkachev's espionage enabled has applications in the present day, in situations where US aircraft might come into conflict with Soviet fighters built in the 1980s and early 1990s. But it could conceivably extend to planes built after that period as well.

iswwwwwwwww.png




Even some of the most advanced Russian aircraft began their development either at the end of Soviet period or in the immediate post-Soviet period, when communist-era state defense institutes were often left intact.

For instance, the Su-34 Fullback multirole fighter jet — four of which are currently in Syriafirst flew in 1990, although the plane didn't officially enter service until 2014. Russia also has Su-30 Flankers in Syria.

Both planes are descendants of the SU-27 multirole fighter, the radar specifications of which were fully known to US military planners, thanks to Tolkachev.

Hoffman speculated to Business Insider that some of Tolkachev's information is still relevant to US national security.

"I still think there are big parts of what Tolkachev delivered that are still in use and that are legitimately still classified," Hoffman said. "Even though this case is three decades old, it’s quite likely that some of that stuff is still considered pretty valuable intelligence."

Tolkachev's information helped the US dominate the skies in earlier operations against Soviet-built fighters. And if there's shooting over Syria, an intelligence operation from the Cold War's critical final decade might come in handy all over again.

US and Russia planes in Syria - Business Insider
 
.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom