GURU DUTT
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Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM
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what was that ... any way mai sadke 
Asian.Century
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Russia, China and Pakistan: An Emerging New Axis?
Regional realities are shifting fast, with some significant ramifications for India.
By Joy Mitra
August 18, 2015
In geopolitics, strategic realities can change with surprising speed, and even before countries realize it decisive shifts occur that shape the future for the years to come. That seems to be the case with traditional Cold War rivals Russia and Pakistan, which have of late seen a gradual warming of ties. Traditionally an ally of India and hitherto supportive of India’s stance on Kashmir, Russia has shown clear signs of cozying up to Pakistan.
Having earlier lifted its self-imposed arms embargo on Pakistan, in November 2014 Russia signed a landmark“military cooperation” agreement with Pakistan, which spoke about “exchanging information on politico-military issues, strengthening collaboration in the defense and counter-terrorism sectors, sharing similar views on developments in Afghanistan and doing business with each other.” There have been reports that Pakistan may purchase Mi-35 combat helicopters apart from directly importing the Klimov RD-93 engines from Russiarather than via China for its JF-17 multi-role fighters. This could also mean a significant role for Russian equipment and spares in future development of the fighter. In addition, Russian state-owned firm Rostekh Corporation is planning to build a 680 mile gas pipeline in Pakistan in 2017 at an estimated cost of $2.5 billion.
The mutual overtures between Russia and Pakistan are part of a greater shift in international relations. In Europe, Russia is embroiled in a showdown with the West over Ukraine, with Moscow’s military adventure in Crimea being followed by Western sanctions. In the Asia-Pacific, China’s encroachments in the South China Seahas inflamed tensions with other Asia-Pacific countries allied with the U.S. These developments have forced Russia and China to look for allies, which explains the bonhomie between the two powers of late. Some analysts question whether a partnership motivated by external factors could lead to an alliance of countries that formerly distrusted each other. But the old adage “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” fits perfectly well here; the single most important factor that overrides all others is their concurrent perception of the U.S. and its “policy of containment” towards them. China needs allies to change the world order and it begins with Asia.
The China-Pakistan link is well known and is the most formidable leg of the Russia-China-Pakistan triangle. China has been a traditional ally of Pakistan and has historically supported it against its arch rival India both in terms of military equipment and diplomacy. Chinese have been involved in building nuclear reactors for Pakistan; Pakistan is the largest importer of Chinese manufactured defense equipment, is involved in co-production and co-development of JF-17 fighter jets and now is slated to buy almost eight Chinese’s S20 or Yuan-class diesel-electric submarines (SSK). China has also significantly invested in Pakistan’s Gwadar Port and in the Karakoram corridor. The imperative here is not just for China but for Pakistan as well. The burgeoning relationship between the U.S. and India, with their extensive trade ties and cooperation on strategic issues of mutual concern in the sphere of defense technology and equipment, does unnerve Pakistan from time to time. Since Pakistan’s failed misadventure in the Kargil heights, it has lost the support of successive U.S. administrations on the Kashmir issue and its own relationship with the U.S. has been rocky.
It is from here that the congruence of interests between the three states of Pakistan, China and Russia stems. For China and Russia, the U.S. is an anathema, which must dethroned from its hegemonic position for their own security. Pakistan has enough of an incentive to be a willing partner in an Asian security architecture that is shaped by China. With India having diversified its military suppliers to include countries like the U.S. and Israel, Russia no longer sees any impediment to establishing a strategic relationship with Pakistan. In the future one could see signs of integration between the three states, as their abilities complement each other: Russia is an alternate source for Western military technology and energy supplier, China is economically more potent than the other two, with considerable foreign exchange reserves looking to invest and in need of energy supplies, Pakistan despite its structural problems is a growing economy with young population in need of both of both energy supplies and defense equipment. Already importing equipment from China, Pakistan will have access to Russian technology, which was in fact the source for many Chinese products as well. Sanctions-hit Russia will have a new market for its defense equipment, although this may well in the future see some competition between Russia and China. It is possible that Russia will continue to arm India along with China and now Pakistan. Both EU and US have followed the strategy of supplying defense equipment to both India and Pakistan. But Russia arming Pakistan is still significant because that implies that Russia will no longer give preferential treatment to its historical friend India.
It is true India is still economically too big to be overlooked and Russia has an interest in preserving its relationship with India. But India has estranged security ties with China and Pakistan, and with Russia drawing ever closer to China, its divergence of interest with India in the world order it perceives is growing more apparent. The Russia-Pakistan-China triumvirate is a reality in the offing and has a far greater convergence of security objectives in Asia than a similar Russia-China-India grouping (also subsumed within BRICS). It is important to note here that the Chinese economy is visibly slowing and this could lead to some internal turmoil, the Russian economy may very well see further contraction, while that of Pakistan, albeit showing signs of improvement, is external aid dependent and beset by internal security concerns. Aggression on the part of this triumvirate to deflect attention from internal problems cannot be ruled out. The strategic ramifications will be for India as much as they will be the U.S. and other countries in the region. As the contours of the alliances in Asia harden, India will have to shed its reluctance to take a firmer stand in Asia and work more closely with the U.S. and Japan.
Joy Mitra is post-graduate scholar of international relations from Jindal School of International Affairs and a researcher with Wikistrat.
Russia, China and Pakistan: An Emerging New Axis? | The Diplomat
Source: Russia - Pakistan: the Way is Open for New Projects
Regional realities are shifting fast, with some significant ramifications for India.
By Joy Mitra
August 18, 2015
In geopolitics, strategic realities can change with surprising speed, and even before countries realize it decisive shifts occur that shape the future for the years to come. That seems to be the case with traditional Cold War rivals Russia and Pakistan, which have of late seen a gradual warming of ties. Traditionally an ally of India and hitherto supportive of India’s stance on Kashmir, Russia has shown clear signs of cozying up to Pakistan.
Having earlier lifted its self-imposed arms embargo on Pakistan, in November 2014 Russia signed a landmark“military cooperation” agreement with Pakistan, which spoke about “exchanging information on politico-military issues, strengthening collaboration in the defense and counter-terrorism sectors, sharing similar views on developments in Afghanistan and doing business with each other.” There have been reports that Pakistan may purchase Mi-35 combat helicopters apart from directly importing the Klimov RD-93 engines from Russiarather than via China for its JF-17 multi-role fighters. This could also mean a significant role for Russian equipment and spares in future development of the fighter. In addition, Russian state-owned firm Rostekh Corporation is planning to build a 680 mile gas pipeline in Pakistan in 2017 at an estimated cost of $2.5 billion.
The mutual overtures between Russia and Pakistan are part of a greater shift in international relations. In Europe, Russia is embroiled in a showdown with the West over Ukraine, with Moscow’s military adventure in Crimea being followed by Western sanctions. In the Asia-Pacific, China’s encroachments in the South China Seahas inflamed tensions with other Asia-Pacific countries allied with the U.S. These developments have forced Russia and China to look for allies, which explains the bonhomie between the two powers of late. Some analysts question whether a partnership motivated by external factors could lead to an alliance of countries that formerly distrusted each other. But the old adage “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” fits perfectly well here; the single most important factor that overrides all others is their concurrent perception of the U.S. and its “policy of containment” towards them. China needs allies to change the world order and it begins with Asia.
The China-Pakistan link is well known and is the most formidable leg of the Russia-China-Pakistan triangle. China has been a traditional ally of Pakistan and has historically supported it against its arch rival India both in terms of military equipment and diplomacy. Chinese have been involved in building nuclear reactors for Pakistan; Pakistan is the largest importer of Chinese manufactured defense equipment, is involved in co-production and co-development of JF-17 fighter jets and now is slated to buy almost eight Chinese’s S20 or Yuan-class diesel-electric submarines (SSK). China has also significantly invested in Pakistan’s Gwadar Port and in the Karakoram corridor. The imperative here is not just for China but for Pakistan as well. The burgeoning relationship between the U.S. and India, with their extensive trade ties and cooperation on strategic issues of mutual concern in the sphere of defense technology and equipment, does unnerve Pakistan from time to time. Since Pakistan’s failed misadventure in the Kargil heights, it has lost the support of successive U.S. administrations on the Kashmir issue and its own relationship with the U.S. has been rocky.
It is from here that the congruence of interests between the three states of Pakistan, China and Russia stems. For China and Russia, the U.S. is an anathema, which must dethroned from its hegemonic position for their own security. Pakistan has enough of an incentive to be a willing partner in an Asian security architecture that is shaped by China. With India having diversified its military suppliers to include countries like the U.S. and Israel, Russia no longer sees any impediment to establishing a strategic relationship with Pakistan. In the future one could see signs of integration between the three states, as their abilities complement each other: Russia is an alternate source for Western military technology and energy supplier, China is economically more potent than the other two, with considerable foreign exchange reserves looking to invest and in need of energy supplies, Pakistan despite its structural problems is a growing economy with young population in need of both of both energy supplies and defense equipment. Already importing equipment from China, Pakistan will have access to Russian technology, which was in fact the source for many Chinese products as well. Sanctions-hit Russia will have a new market for its defense equipment, although this may well in the future see some competition between Russia and China. It is possible that Russia will continue to arm India along with China and now Pakistan. Both EU and US have followed the strategy of supplying defense equipment to both India and Pakistan. But Russia arming Pakistan is still significant because that implies that Russia will no longer give preferential treatment to its historical friend India.
It is true India is still economically too big to be overlooked and Russia has an interest in preserving its relationship with India. But India has estranged security ties with China and Pakistan, and with Russia drawing ever closer to China, its divergence of interest with India in the world order it perceives is growing more apparent. The Russia-Pakistan-China triumvirate is a reality in the offing and has a far greater convergence of security objectives in Asia than a similar Russia-China-India grouping (also subsumed within BRICS). It is important to note here that the Chinese economy is visibly slowing and this could lead to some internal turmoil, the Russian economy may very well see further contraction, while that of Pakistan, albeit showing signs of improvement, is external aid dependent and beset by internal security concerns. Aggression on the part of this triumvirate to deflect attention from internal problems cannot be ruled out. The strategic ramifications will be for India as much as they will be the U.S. and other countries in the region. As the contours of the alliances in Asia harden, India will have to shed its reluctance to take a firmer stand in Asia and work more closely with the U.S. and Japan.
Joy Mitra is post-graduate scholar of international relations from Jindal School of International Affairs and a researcher with Wikistrat.
Russia, China and Pakistan: An Emerging New Axis? | The Diplomat
Source: Russia - Pakistan: the Way is Open for New Projects
GURU DUTT
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russia is an arms manufacturrer and it will sell its goods to who ever that can pay its not owr fault no one is going to say no to a new coustmer just because we dont like that coustmer .... its strikly buisness nothing personal
Khanivore
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You alledged...
Your reply at best was a counter question?
...
@Icarus
I asked a source of your allegation... Me: "Seriously, can you quote a Pakistani source? Otherwise stop wasting your time."
Your reply at best was a counter question?
...Either you are utterly thick or you are trolling. You're not contributing anything worthwhile but instead posting a load of ego-fueled drivel. I would suggest you cut this nonsense before your ego trip deals you a wake up call.
@Icarus
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You obviously have no idea on how much we buy from Russia. India has decided not to put all of its eggs in one basket for sure but that does not mean Russia will stop getting sales from India. Russia and India have taken the defence deals one step ahead and looking to be partners or let me just say India wants to be a learning partner, such deals cost even more since some amount of learning and ToT takes place. Stop fooling yourself by talking about 1 paise and 5 paise when you don't get it at all. Ok so what else can Pak buy say after the SU-35 that can effectively replace Indian sales for Russia?
Please don't bring in warm waters and the fabled silk route, while being strategic for Russia too its not strategic enough for Russia to lose India.
How can India stop Russians from earning big money from bharat mata ?
Indians need
Engines
Radars
Etc spares from them for all of their planes for decades to come...India has no place to go for spares and has invested huge chunk of money on pak fa...
So Russians aint losing no thing...
And in decades things can change even indo-russ relations
Whats the range of sd 10A ?
It full
It fulfils our requirements big time....
Good analysis. If India does decide to sour its relationship with Russia it will be a velvet divorce meaning not one that will stop every deal between the two. Russia too knows it can still milk India for spares and it decides not to, it will further lose dollars which will be a double whammy! it's not as simple as Pakistanis see it here on this forum.
Let's assume Indo-Russian relations spiral downhill. Unlike Pakistan, India has multiple resources to re-instate airplanes of similar caliber. We currently have over or close to 200 SU 30MKI that can easily be reduced to 75 effectively while the rest can be canablized for spares until replacements arrive. Not a very good scenario but enough still while combined with our navy and army to keep any adventurism from Pakistan away.
Lastly, If Russia does so, it will signal to the world what its intentions are and put India in a space where several countries from the west will easily help. Very unlikely for long term friends but India will lose little in terms of its military edge against its only enemy, Pak.
Military aside something that Pakistanis never get is trade and economics. China or Russia do not think like Pakistan. Trade is very essential for the two and India is a huge growing market that Pakistan can never ever replace. Killing relations with India hence is never an option for Russia or China.
If push comes to shove India will decide to buy twice the number of squadrons you wish to at inflated cost just to deny you any advantages, you still think Russia will be interested? Sure, relations between Pak-Russia will continue to rise but Russia trying to replace India with Pakistan is sadly only a Pakistani dream.
Foxtrot Delta
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as much as i would love to see su-35 in pakistan airforce, chances of us actully getting this plane are next to zero. its a beast and awesome but our circumstances and complex diplomatic problems seem to be against us. i would love to see it in PAF but till then lets resume our training and preparing to take down su-35s not fly them. lets focus on bring them down and countering their threat.
Foxtrot Delta
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as much as i would love to see su-35 in pakistan airforce, chances of us actully getting this plane are next to zero. its a beast and awesome but our circumstances and complex diplomatic problems seem to be against us. i would love to see it in PAF but till then lets resume our training and preparing to take down su-35s not fly them. lets focus on bring them down and countering their threat.
nadeemkhan110
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Well it depends on a leader Take care of your BUTCHER OF GUJRAT
India is place where even A terrorist can be A LEADER Its a DEMOCRACY RIGHT
LEADER IS KNOWN AS A SHADOW OF A NATION
mzeeshanfahd
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found them on a forum ..... I am already in love with the bird
Last edited:
Last Samuri
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sorry PEOPLE a lot of people spouting out things they know nothing about.
RE SU35
Russia needs cash
Russia China Pak Nexus
Pakistan will Give Russia axcess to Markets in Middle East
Russia will give Pakistan favourable terms.
ETC ETC ETC.
Let me tell You that india has dealt with Russia for 70 YEARS and they do not provide credit or Spares on time
RUSSIA is now a decling power WHOSE GDP is now l;iterally HALF THE SIZE OF INDIA,S
Without indian money PAK FA will grind to a HALT
As for PAK getting SU35 99% certain it will come to nothing WHY ????
You guys don't have $2.5 billion spare
AND RUSSIA IS BROKEN ECONMONY AND ISOLATED AND SANCTIONED
IF you think I,m kidding JUST CHECK THE HYPER LINK
World GDP Ranking 2015 | Data and Charts - knoema.com
RE SU35
Russia needs cash
Russia China Pak Nexus
Pakistan will Give Russia axcess to Markets in Middle East
Russia will give Pakistan favourable terms.
ETC ETC ETC.
Let me tell You that india has dealt with Russia for 70 YEARS and they do not provide credit or Spares on time
RUSSIA is now a decling power WHOSE GDP is now l;iterally HALF THE SIZE OF INDIA,S
Without indian money PAK FA will grind to a HALT
As for PAK getting SU35 99% certain it will come to nothing WHY ????
You guys don't have $2.5 billion spare
AND RUSSIA IS BROKEN ECONMONY AND ISOLATED AND SANCTIONED
IF you think I,m kidding JUST CHECK THE HYPER LINK
World GDP Ranking 2015 | Data and Charts - knoema.com
That Guy
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You made your point very clear, but unfortunately, I believe it to be wrong.
First of all, the so called deal of 24 Su-35s for China have been going on for years, and the Chinese have already said they're no longer interested. There is no reason to suggest that they're looking to buy it, even for reverse engineering purposes (in particular, the engines).
Second, the Indian deal (even if it goes through) will take at least 2 years to fulfill one squadron worth of orders. India has to go through training, building of infrastructure, and so on, which will take them a long time. There have been calls within India to abandon the Rafale deal, and concentrate on the Su-30MKIs. By the time they get a squadron ready, PAF may have better options available.
Next, the Su-35 isn't the only available 4++ gen to Pakistan, hell, I don't think the Su-35 is actually even available. Like @Oscar said, India would sooner spend a billion, then let Pakistan spend a million buying the damn thing.
Pakistan is still not interested in the Su-35, and the former air chief has already said that PAF is more interested in 5th gen. Former air force pilots and current analyst, Kaiser Tufail has said that PAF may want to skip the 4++ and go straight to the 5th gen.
PAF will reject the deal, if a deal even exists (which I doubt). Whether for the reason I've given, or Oscar. It's as simple as that.
Super Falcon
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B
Which colour scheme is good for SU 45
bhai agar mulk ki hifazat ki bat ho tu cheap idea nahe diya karo maintana
Which colour scheme is good for SU 45
Last Samuri
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Indian gdp is twice YES twice the SIZE OF RUSSIA...
PAK wants SU35 or Rafale or Typhoon or F35 you can get them
BUT NOT WITHOUT CASH ???
For this reason your SU35 dreams will be shattered and thread closed to save embaressment for most of you
PAK wants SU35 or Rafale or Typhoon or F35 you can get them
BUT NOT WITHOUT CASH ???
For this reason your SU35 dreams will be shattered and thread closed to save embaressment for most of you
nadeemkhan110
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China’s Master Plan to Destroy the F-22 and F-35 in Battle
With huge numbers of J-11 jets and role SU-35
The J-11D, which is currently in development, is arguably the most advanced land-based single-seat Chinese version of the Flanker. While it probably is not quite as potent as the Russian Su-35S, it is very comparable in a lot of respects. While almost all information concerning Chinese hardware is suspect, the new J-11D allegedly made its first flight sometime in April.
The new variant is purportedly equipped with a new electronically scanned radar — possibly an active electronically scanned array (AESA). But China wouldn’t need the Su-35 if it had developed a working, producible AESA. That could be why China and Russia have been taking so long to work out a deal to buy the Su-35 — the People’s Republic has reached a point where it doesn’t need the Russians as much as they used to.
The J-11D is also purported to use radar absorbent materials to help reduce the jet’s signature, possibly a new infrared search-and-track system (IRST) and revamped electronic warfare systems. It also allegedly features an improved version of China’s WS-10 jet engine — but the Chinese have had a lot of difficulties with producing a reliable motor for their aircraft. One reason China is interested in the Su-35 is because of that plane’s engines.
sources: China’s Master Plan to Destroy the F-22 and F-35 in Battle | War Is Boring
With huge numbers of J-11 jets and role SU-35
The J-11D, which is currently in development, is arguably the most advanced land-based single-seat Chinese version of the Flanker. While it probably is not quite as potent as the Russian Su-35S, it is very comparable in a lot of respects. While almost all information concerning Chinese hardware is suspect, the new J-11D allegedly made its first flight sometime in April.
The new variant is purportedly equipped with a new electronically scanned radar — possibly an active electronically scanned array (AESA). But China wouldn’t need the Su-35 if it had developed a working, producible AESA. That could be why China and Russia have been taking so long to work out a deal to buy the Su-35 — the People’s Republic has reached a point where it doesn’t need the Russians as much as they used to.
The J-11D is also purported to use radar absorbent materials to help reduce the jet’s signature, possibly a new infrared search-and-track system (IRST) and revamped electronic warfare systems. It also allegedly features an improved version of China’s WS-10 jet engine — but the Chinese have had a lot of difficulties with producing a reliable motor for their aircraft. One reason China is interested in the Su-35 is because of that plane’s engines.
sources: China’s Master Plan to Destroy the F-22 and F-35 in Battle | War Is Boring
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