Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM

[Akasa]

As of right now, the Chinese deal of 24 SU-35's seems to be confirmed, it has been reported as such by the Reuters, Sputnik International & IHS Janes .. Good catch @aliyusuf

Russia, China sign contract worth over $2 billion for Su-35 fighter jets| Reuters
Russia Confirms Signing Contract With China on Delivery of 24 Su-35 Jets
Russia to supply China with 24 Su-35 fighters | IHS Jane's 360



I would agree with you that China wouldn't simply go on and procure a squadron of aircrafts just to re-export them to Pakistan. The discussion if you actually refer back to it revolved around a customized "chinese SU-35 solution", where the PAF would get the SU-35's re-exported from China with certain Chinese systems on it, and this idea would be sold that a "downgraded" SU-35 is what PAF got ... This was one of the ideas that was floated back in the day when this topic was hot and was discussed to the death, for which the conclusion was something like ... "nahhh doesn't seem too likely" ... Then there was also the idea where a deal could be made with the Russians to allow the export of a certain J-11 version, where we could pay the Russian certain royalties .... So there were alot of possibilities discussed on this forum ...

Why would a Su-35 with Chinese subsystems be a "downgrade"? If anything, the Chinese would slap on a new AESA, next generation EW/ECM systems, etc.

 

[Asifkamal]

I know only one thing. Its decision time. Since 1990,s PAF is struggling. Sometime purchasing second hand mirages from australia,france,belgium,lebnon sometime purchasing F7 PG like old technology fighters in the event of coming war with india in 2003_4( PAF wpuld have never purchased, otherwise in 21st century) . And what to talk about having no BVR and doing anti BVR measures.....
IF Navy can purchase 8 submarienes on 4_5 billion dollars deal, if Army can purchase advance Cobra (16 examples) on 1 billion dollar deal, then its high time to go for 5 billion dollars deal of 60 su35 ..otherwise subs and cobras will be sitting ducks for indians. If Russians are not selling , go for Grippen NG .we can purchase atleast 50 Grippen at 5 billion dollars. Because by 2020_22 whole scinario will be different. Indians wpuld be masters of Rafale and su30 and no option will be left for us for immidiate reply. Even if we purchase Eurofighter at 135million dollars a piece, 36 such fighters will manage all our weaknesses. What we are doing is, we are just observing and waiting and evaluating till next better aircraft come in market

 

[HRK]

Why would a Su-35 with Chinese subsystems be a "downgrade"? If anything, the Chinese would slap on a new AESA, next generation EW/ECM systems, etc.

this term 'downgraded' will be used as 'A Marketing Term' to satisfy some ego of other Market customers of Russian weapon if that option of SU-35 sales to Pakistan via China will ever be exercised.

 

[Akasa]

this term 'downgraded' will be used as 'A Marketing Term' to satisfy some ego of other Market customers of Russian weapon if that option of SU-35 sales to Pakistan via China will ever be exercised.

Why would be buying through the Chinese be any cheaper than doing so from Moscow?

 

[HRK]

Why would be buying through the Chinese be any cheaper than doing so from Moscow?

As I said earlier that may be one of the options not necessarily be exercised by concerns .... & buying of Su-35 from Russia by Pakistan may be more difficult on political grounds then the financial prospect of this deal .... so the indirect approach via China (after used by PLAAF just for 2-3 years of services) could provide face saving to both the Russian & Indian sides ....

 

[Akasa]

As I said earlier that may be one of the options not necessarily be exercised by concerns .... & buying of Su-35 from Russia by Pakistan may be more difficult on political grounds then the financial prospect of this deal .... so the indirect approach via China (after used by PLAAF just for 2-3 years of services) could provide face saving to both the Russian & Indian sides ....

The current rumor is that these jets will be fitted with Chinese subsystems, including avionics and weaponry; it looks like these jets are more suited for the PLAAF, which is interested in the 117S engines.

 

[abdulbarijan]

I don't foresee any drastic changes in the geo political environment in the near term, for now, Pakistan will continue to fly American and Chinese fighters while India stay with Russian ones, at least till the (still not inducted0 5th gens are close to retiring.

Well that would be your opinion, an opinion that can be easily refuted using the argument of Russia selling the most key component of a fighter sorted to become PAF's backbone... Economic cooperation with Pakistan aside, the fact that Russia would resort to arm pulling of India, using Pakistan ... is something that should concern you ... The only difference this time around is ... the once "mild jabs" are actually hitting this time around ... We all know the episode of RD-93 ...

So while you can stick with your opinion of in the shorter term there wont be any significant change, however the fact is while the argument maybe a little valid with the case of Pak-Russia military relations and certainly it will take time before Pakistan has significant deals from Russia ... but the writing is on the wall though ..

On the other hand Indo-Russian relations have changed ... With India going to the west, screwing the ruskies out of the MMRCA, reducing orders of Pak-FA, the inevitable reality that India has to face is that ... Russia is not the "all weather friend" it once was ... the partnership has transformed from a very strong friendship to the state where Russia and India are "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" -- just that Russia is like "if need be, we'll also twist your arms or get you by the balls" ...

Why would a Su-35 with Chinese subsystems be a "downgrade"? If anything, the Chinese would slap on a new AESA, next generation EW/ECM systems, etc.

I don't mean that the SU-35 as a fighter platform would be "downgraded" -- the idea which was put forth, which I was quoting was -- to sell the "IDEA" that the platform is downgraded, which would be relatively easy, seeing how the every day lalu, karthick and Virat (Indian version of the Tom, Dick & Harry) view the Chinese equipment as substandard ...

The Idea was to sell a perception so that Russia doesn't have to face the brunt of the Indian questions on how it is selling its "absolute best" to Pakistan ... China gets in a much more comfortable position as the defense of the investments in CPEC project especially over the waters is beefed up... and the lethality of PAF is increased due to the arrival of a latest strike platform with a huge range and payload on it ... so a "win win win" ....

Why would be buying through the Chinese be any cheaper than doing so from Moscow?

It won't be cheaper ... but looking at the jets of the same class .. Rafale deal of Egypt with the same strength i.e 24 was worth nearly 6 Billion US dollars, the deal for EF-2000 with Oman was worth nearly 2.5 Billion dollars and only involved 12 EF-2000's and 8 Hawks ... Similar jets of the same class of aircrafts from the west cost alot more ... although the argument could be made for the maintenance costs etc. however ultimately the western counter parts will cost more ... just by the looks of the deals signed ...

The acquisition process of PAF will be guided by its needs .. PN is spending nearly 8 Billion for its modernization .. PAF has already found a cost effective solution to replace its entire old fleet in JFT ... what PAF needs right now is be vigilant and acquire the second hand MLU'ed falcons (1-2 squadrons would be enough) --- and sit tight while working on the JFT project. As soon as the JFT block III's first squadron gets in to operational service that would be the time to go big with a deal of a squadron of a high end platform (SU-35/J-11 etc.) depending on the needs, the geo-political situation and the economic realities that Pakistan has to face ...

 

[volatile]

I know only one thing. Its decision time. Since 1990,s PAF is struggling. Sometime purchasing second hand mirages from australia,france,belgium,lebnon sometime purchasing F7 PG like old technology fighters in the event of coming war with india in 2003_4( PAF wpuld have never purchased, otherwise in 21st century) . And what to talk about having no BVR and doing anti BVR measures.....
IF Navy can purchase 8 submarienes on 4_5 billion dollars deal, if Army can purchase advance Cobra (16 examples) on 1 billion dollar deal, then its high time to go for 5 billion dollars deal of 60 su35 ..otherwise subs and cobras will be sitting ducks for indians. If Russians are not selling , go for Grippen NG .we can purchase atleast 50 Grippen at 5 billion dollars. Because by 2020_22 whole scinario will be different. Indians wpuld be masters of Rafale and su30 and no option will be left for us for immidiate reply. Even if we purchase Eurofighter at 135million dollars a piece, 36 such fighters will manage all our weaknesses. What we are doing is, we are just observing and waiting and evaluating till next better aircraft come in market

I respect your emotions but Gripen NG is not an option simply US Engine and JF17 offering more punch in less price ,This i will agree with you that some deal has to be finalized bcas as i see this region is going for a war in coming 5 years so its better to equip personally i prefer Rafael over Euro fighter but it is not happening realistically we should be considering J10 b/c or Su 35 .As one has to recall policy statment by PAF ,We are looking for fighters in both East and West ,From West F16 is there Local option is Chinese + PAF thunder ,From East only aero plane left is only SU 35 which should come 24 may be

 

[Barrel-Bomba]

Well that would be your opinion, an opinion that can be easily refuted using the argument of Russia selling the most key component of a fighter sorted to become PAF's backbone... Economic cooperation with Pakistan aside, the fact that Russia would resort to arm pulling of India, using Pakistan ... is something that should concern you ... The only difference this time around is ... the once "mild jabs" are actually hitting this time around ... We all know the episode of RD-93 ...

So while you can stick with your opinion of in the shorter term there wont be any significant change, however the fact is while the argument maybe a little valid with the case of Pak-Russia military relations and certainly it will take time before Pakistan has significant deals from Russia ... but the writing is on the wall though ..

On the other hand Indo-Russian relations have changed ... With India going to the west, screwing the ruskies out of the MMRCA, reducing orders of Pak-FA, the inevitable reality that India has to face is that ... Russia is not the "all weather friend" it once was ... the partnership has transformed from a very strong friendship to the state where Russia and India are "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" -- just that Russia is like "if need be, we'll also twist your arms or get you by the balls" ...




I don't mean that the SU-35 as a fighter platform would be "downgraded" -- the idea which was put forth, which I was quoting was -- to sell the "IDEA" that the platform is downgraded, which would be relatively easy, seeing how the every day lalu, karthick and Virat (Indian version of the Tom, Dick & Harry) view the Chinese equipment as substandard ...

The Idea was to sell a perception so that Russia doesn't have to face the brunt of the Indian questions on how it is selling its "absolute best" to Pakistan ... China gets in a much more comfortable position as the defense of the investments in CPEC project especially over the waters is beefed up... and the lethality of PAF is increased due to the arrival of a latest strike platform with a huge range and payload on it ... so a "win win win" ....



It won't be cheaper ... but looking at the jets of the same class .. Rafale deal of Egypt with the same strength i.e 24 was worth nearly 6 Billion US dollars, the deal for EF-2000 with Oman was worth nearly 2.5 Billion dollars and only involved 12 EF-2000's and 8 Hawks ... Similar jets of the same class of aircrafts from the west cost alot more ... although the argument could be made for the maintenance costs etc. however ultimately the western counter parts will cost more ... just by the looks of the deals signed ...

The acquisition process of PAF will be guided by its needs .. PN is spending nearly 8 Billion for its modernization .. PAF has already found a cost effective solution to replace its entire old fleet in JFT ... what PAF needs right now is be vigilant and acquire the second hand MLU'ed falcons (1-2 squadrons would be enough) --- and sit tight while working on the JFT project. As soon as the JFT block III's first squadron gets in to operational service that would be the time to go big with a deal of a squadron of a high end platform (SU-35/J-11 etc.) depending on the needs, the geo-political situation and the economic realities that Pakistan has to face ...

oh dear, so desperate for flankers

too bad you're not getting any, deal with it.

 

[batmannow]

I don't foresee any drastic changes in the geo political environment in the near term, for now, Pakistan will continue to fly American and Chinese fighters while India stay with Russian ones, at least till the (still not inducted0 5th gens are close to retiring.

You can't see anything cause you are blinded with your biased , thinking towards Pakistan ?lolzz

oh dear, so desperate for flankers

too bad you're not getting any, deal with it.

No its you despertly denying & living in the state of denial ?lolzz

 

[Barrel-Bomba]

You can't see anything cause you are blinded with your biased , thinking towards Pakistan ?lolzz


No its you despertly denying & living in the state of denial ?lolzz

PAF have exactly 0% chance of buying su 35

 

[majid mehmood]

PAF have exactly 0% chance of buying su 35

the same comments u made when we buying mi 35
that we will cancel all our deal with russia BUT
nothing happened
india was like
pakistan is looking for a heavy fighter for its navy as told by friend of mine who works in paf

 

[Barrel-Bomba]

pakistan is looking for a heavy fighter for its navy as told by friend of mine who works in paf

wont be SU 35

 

[majid mehmood]

wont be SU 35

time will tell that but this is what i said earlier
"i was thinking for some days and came up that
Russia is not foolish that it will sell weapons and will lose Indian defense market share
BUT they are most intelligent
but if u see that if Pakistan buy weapons from Russia then many Arab countries would buy and they would gain more profit
just like pak buying weapons from china and countries like Egypt bought it and even Chinese missile were bought buy ksa even though Chinese thing are recognized as degraded in Arab world but after pak bought it many Arab world did it

so in my opinion i would say russia is selling pak its weapons because Pakistan will pave road for Russia to sell its weapon to Arab world and make triple profit
and diversify its market than solely depending on Indian"

 

[Bossman]

oh dear, so desperate for flankers

too bad you're not getting any, deal with it.

Poor Indians have been saying such things for the last 80 years and have always been proven wrong. They said Pakistan is not possible, Pakistan was created. Then they said and continue to say that Pakistan will not survive. We are still around and a bigger pain in their @$$ with every passing year. They said Pakistan cannot get the bomb. Once we did they they have the bomb but they cannot deliver. Pakistan gets better delivery system than India. Same story with Jf 17s, F16, mi 35s etc etc. Their inherent bias towards Pakistan is our best asset.