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Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM

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So you think , Russian DFM just speculated ?
Why direct sale of any Russian weapons are not possible to Pakistan ?

No, the Russian DFM did not speculate. But how the deal will eventually pan out is anybody's guess. Deals more further along the sales cycle than this have been cancelled in the past. These things take time. We don't know what the actual status of the deal is. We don't know what might happen after Putin and Modi meeting in the coming months.

I did not say that the deal is not possible, in fact it is quite possible with Russia, Pakistan and China all in on it. The main purpose, IMHO, is to give the PAF an added punch ... whatever be the form of that punch. It could be the Su-35 or maybe even the J-11s or maybe something else (we don't know). So I was just speculating the alternatives should such a deal not materialize. IMHO, J-11D with Su-35s engines would be even more capable than the Su-35. But it is my wish list and that was what I posted previously.

Hope that clears it.
 
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No, the Russian DFM did not speculate. But how the deal will eventually pan out is anybody's guess. Deals more further along the sales cycle than this have been cancelled in the past. These things take time. We don't know what the actual status of the deal is. We don't know what might happen after Putin and Modi meeting in the coming months.

I did not say that the deal is not possible, in fact it is quite possible with Russia, Pakistan and China all in on it. The main purpose, IMHO, is to give the PAF an added punch ... whatever be the form of that punch. It could be the Su-35 or maybe even the J-11s or maybe something else (we don't know). So I was just speculating the alternatives should such a deal not materialize. IMHO, J-11D with Su-35s engines would be even more capable than the Su-35. But it is my wish list and that was what I posted previously.

Hope that clears it.

The rumors are (if they make any sense) that China wants these planes for PAF. It cannot fly them under it's own flag on Pakistani soil, that will set off alarm belles ringing in the West. Russia needs money. If China can provide funds to purchase from Russia, i don't know what the problem is.
But PAF will have it's own plans and analysis as well. Any case, a few squadrons of heavy will be very good.
 
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No, the Russian DFM did not speculate. But how the deal will eventually pan out is anybody's guess. Deals more further along the sales cycle than this have been cancelled in the past. These things take time. We don't know what the actual status of the deal is. We don't know what might happen after Putin and Modi meeting in the coming months.

I did not say that the deal is not possible, in fact it is quite possible with Russia, Pakistan and China all in on it. The main purpose, IMHO, is to give the PAF an added punch ... whatever be the form of that punch. It could be the Su-35 or maybe even the J-11s or maybe something else (we don't know). So I was just speculating the alternatives should such a deal not materialize. IMHO, J-11D with Su-35s engines would be even more capable than the Su-35. But it is my wish list and that was what I posted previously.

Hope that clears it.
Pls stop speculation friend , as you yourself rightly pointed out that hounrable Russian DFM wasnt telling any joke then , you should wait until further annoucment ?
He or any Pakistani officials doesn't needs to address your or my desperation ?
States run with their super national interests not by meeting any head if state ?
So just cool down , India has over manuovered itself & now is standing now nowhere ?
The so called Indian strategists are desperate to save their dam jobs from the terrorist tea boy.s govt , that they virtually has made his mind that whole world is poor & all of Russia , China , & USA are just after the gold mountains of India ?
No its not like that , at all !
Right now if India goes with more military purchses from west or anerica , I'm sure Russia is going to stop its supplies to indian military very soon , which will effect its 80% dependent Indian military on Russian arms ?
No way they can take out all of the Russian hard ware in couple of days months or years ?
Just remember one thing , SU-35 is the best form of any flanker till now which Russia ever produced so , if we go we will go only for that .
& that's it !

Dawn News
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  • Modi pushes 'obsolete' made-in-India plane on reluctant military[/paste:font]
    REUTERS — PUBLISHED ABOUT 10 HOURS AGO
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    164 COMMENTS
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    NEW DELHI: India's government has turned down its military's request to expand the acquisition of 36 fighter planes from Dassault Aviation SA to plug vital gaps, officials said, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane 32 years in the making.

    Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision, in line with his Make-in-India policy to encourage domestic industry, is a blow for not only the French manufacturer but also others circling over the Indian military aviation market worth billions of dollars.

    The push for India's struggling Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) also comes at a time when the Indian Air Force (IAF) is at its weakest operational strength since the 1962 war against China, which is causing anxiety within military circles.

    Since it took over last year, the Modi administration has repeatedly said its overriding goal is to cut off the military's addiction to foreign arms which has made it the world's top importer.

    The air force wanted the government to clear an additional 44 Rafale medium multirole aircraft on top of the 36 that Modi announced during a visit to Paris this year that are to be bought off-the-shelf to meet its urgent requirements.

    Read: Rafale fighter jets deal between India and France in jeopardy

    But a defense ministry official said that Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar had told the Indian air force that there weren't enough funds to expand the Rafale acquisition and that it must induct an improved version of the indigenous Tejas-Mark 1A.

    "The IAF (air force) needs to have a minimum number of aircraft at all times. The LCA is our best option at this stage, given our resource constraints," the defense official said.

    "The Rafale is our most expensive acquisition. The LCA is our cheapest in the combat category."

    India's air force says its requires 45 fighter squadrons to counter a "two-front collusive threat" from Pakistan and China. But it only has 35 active fighter squadrons, parliament's defense committee said in a report in April citing a presentation by a top air force officer.

    With the drawdown of Soviet-era MiG 21 planes under way, the air force would be down to 25 squadrons by 2022 at the current pace of acquisitions, it told the committee.

    Cleared by the government in 1983, the LCA designed by the government's Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was meant to be the backbone of the air force due for induction in 1994.

    Instead, it suffered years of delay and chaos with scientists trying to build the world's most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.

    Eventually they scrapped the engine, turning to GE Aviation and lowering their ambitions for a state-of-the-art fighter. So far, only one aircraft has been produced and even that is awaiting final operational clearance, now delayed to early 2016.

    "In January this year, they had given one LCA ... which had not completed its flight testing. They handed over the papers to us. We do not make a squadron with one aeroplane. That is where we are," said an air force officer speaking on condition of anonymity.

    Safety concerns
    An independent investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India into the LCA program identified 53 "shortfalls" in the plane. In a report in May, the auditor said that the plane wasn't as light as promised, the fuel capacity and speed were lower than required and there were concerns about safety.

    Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defense Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.

    "It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today's war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges."

    He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the air force could win a war with.

    "We would like to have the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) variety of aircraft. At least about six squadrons, to my mind," the head of the air force, Arup Raha, said at the weekend, referring to the Rafale class of fighters.

    But K. Tamilmani, the DRDO's aerospace chief, said the modified version of the Tejas addressed most of the Indian air force concerns. These included electronic warfare system, flight computer, radar and maintenance problems.

    "Almost all the problems get solved with the 1A. There will always be scope for improvement, but there are no flight safety issues," he said.

    State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would be able to ramp production to 16 a year by 2017 to meet the air force's demands, he said.

    "We Indians are extremely good at blaming each other - at blaming it all on Indian production."

    Dassault declined any comment on the government's decision to cap the Rafale fleet.

    A source close to Sweden's Saab, which has been pushing its Gripen light fighter, said that it was respectful of India's decision to try to develop its domestic military base.

    "There's still a huge gap that needs to be filled. We are marketing it (the Gripen) under the Make-in-India umbrella," he said. "Even if you add the seven squadrons of the Tejas, there is still a requirement (with MiGs retiring etc). It’s a question of timing. Can they build these for when they need them?"

    listen to that !!!!:omghaha:
 
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Pls stop speculation friend , as you yourself rightly pointed out that hounrable Russian DFM wasnt telling any joke then , you should wait until further annoucment ?
He or any Pakistani officials doesn't needs to address your or my desperation ?
States run with their super national interests not by meeting any head if state ?
So just cool down , India has over manuovered itself & now is standing now nowhere ?
The so called Indian strategists are desperate to save their dam jobs from the terrorist tea boy.s govt , that they virtually has made his mind that whole world is poor & all of Russia , China , & USA are just after the gold mountains of India ?
No its not like that , at all !
Right now if India goes with more military purchses from west or anerica , I'm sure Russia is going to stop its supplies to indian military very soon , which will effect its 80% dependent Indian military on Russian arms ?
No way they can take out all of the Russian hard ware in couple of days months or years ?
Just remember one thing , SU-35 is the best form of any flanker till now which Russia ever produced so , if we go we will go only for that .
& that's it !

Dawn News
  • HOME
  • LATEST
  • PAKISTAN
  • Modi pushes 'obsolete' made-in-India plane on reluctant military[/paste:font]
    REUTERS — PUBLISHED ABOUT 10 HOURS AGO
    WHATSAPP
    164 COMMENTS
    PRINT
    NEW DELHI: India's government has turned down its military's request to expand the acquisition of 36 fighter planes from Dassault Aviation SA to plug vital gaps, officials said, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane 32 years in the making.

    Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision, in line with his Make-in-India policy to encourage domestic industry, is a blow for not only the French manufacturer but also others circling over the Indian military aviation market worth billions of dollars.

    The push for India's struggling Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) also comes at a time when the Indian Air Force (IAF) is at its weakest operational strength since the 1962 war against China, which is causing anxiety within military circles.

    Since it took over last year, the Modi administration has repeatedly said its overriding goal is to cut off the military's addiction to foreign arms which has made it the world's top importer.

    The air force wanted the government to clear an additional 44 Rafale medium multirole aircraft on top of the 36 that Modi announced during a visit to Paris this year that are to be bought off-the-shelf to meet its urgent requirements.

    Read: Rafale fighter jets deal between India and France in jeopardy

    But a defense ministry official said that Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar had told the Indian air force that there weren't enough funds to expand the Rafale acquisition and that it must induct an improved version of the indigenous Tejas-Mark 1A.

    "The IAF (air force) needs to have a minimum number of aircraft at all times. The LCA is our best option at this stage, given our resource constraints," the defense official said.

    "The Rafale is our most expensive acquisition. The LCA is our cheapest in the combat category."

    India's air force says its requires 45 fighter squadrons to counter a "two-front collusive threat" from Pakistan and China. But it only has 35 active fighter squadrons, parliament's defense committee said in a report in April citing a presentation by a top air force officer.

    With the drawdown of Soviet-era MiG 21 planes under way, the air force would be down to 25 squadrons by 2022 at the current pace of acquisitions, it told the committee.

    Cleared by the government in 1983, the LCA designed by the government's Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was meant to be the backbone of the air force due for induction in 1994.

    Instead, it suffered years of delay and chaos with scientists trying to build the world's most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.

    Eventually they scrapped the engine, turning to GE Aviation and lowering their ambitions for a state-of-the-art fighter. So far, only one aircraft has been produced and even that is awaiting final operational clearance, now delayed to early 2016.

    "In January this year, they had given one LCA ... which had not completed its flight testing. They handed over the papers to us. We do not make a squadron with one aeroplane. That is where we are," said an air force officer speaking on condition of anonymity.


    Safety concerns
    An independent investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India into the LCA program identified 53 "shortfalls" in the plane. In a report in May, the auditor said that the plane wasn't as light as promised, the fuel capacity and speed were lower than required and there were concerns about safety.

    Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defense Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.

    "It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today's war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges."

    He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the air force could win a war with.

    "We would like to have the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) variety of aircraft. At least about six squadrons, to my mind," the head of the air force, Arup Raha, said at the weekend, referring to the Rafale class of fighters.

    But K. Tamilmani, the DRDO's aerospace chief, said the modified version of the Tejas addressed most of the Indian air force concerns. These included electronic warfare system, flight computer, radar and maintenance problems.

    "Almost all the problems get solved with the 1A. There will always be scope for improvement, but there are no flight safety issues," he said.

    State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would be able to ramp production to 16 a year by 2017 to meet the air force's demands, he said.

    "We Indians are extremely good at blaming each other - at blaming it all on Indian production."

    Dassault declined any comment on the government's decision to cap the Rafale fleet.

    A source close to Sweden's Saab, which has been pushing its Gripen light fighter, said that it was respectful of India's decision to try to develop its domestic military base.

    "There's still a huge gap that needs to be filled. We are marketing it (the Gripen) under the Make-in-India umbrella," he said. "Even if you add the seven squadrons of the Tejas, there is still a requirement (with MiGs retiring etc). It’s a question of timing. Can they build these for when they need them?"

    listen to that !!!!:omghaha:
No you don't understand him, he just try to say that we don't know that the talks is in its early stage or advance stage, and pressure from India will be immense will be their and PAF should considered alternatives specially Chinese, thank you
 
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Pls stop speculation friend , as you yourself rightly pointed out that hounrable Russian DFM wasnt telling any joke then , you should wait until further annoucment ?
He or any Pakistani officials doesn't needs to address your or my desperation ?
States run with their super national interests not by meeting any head if state ?
So just cool down , India has over manuovered itself & now is standing now nowhere ?
The so called Indian strategists are desperate to save their dam jobs from the terrorist tea boy.s govt , that they virtually has made his mind that whole world is poor & all of Russia , China , & USA are just after the gold mountains of India ?
No its not like that , at all !
Right now if India goes with more military purchses from west or anerica , I'm sure Russia is going to stop its supplies to indian military very soon , which will effect its 80% dependent Indian military on Russian arms ?
No way they can take out all of the Russian hard ware in couple of days months or years ?
Just remember one thing , SU-35 is the best form of any flanker till now which Russia ever produced so , if we go we will go only for that .
& that's it !
...

Sir, I am cool and patient.

After 19 years in software development, constantly dealing with functionalities, non-stop pressure of deadlines, extremely long hours, anxious clients and keeping up with an ever evolving technology base ... I cannot afford to be anything else but be relaxed.

Back to the topic ...

These things take time to come to fruition.

In the meanwhile I can at least treat myself to the luxury of being able to ponder and speculate on the alternatives and J-11D seems to have taken my fancy for the time being it seems. It is extensively RAM coated has a high percentage of composite materials. This has significantly reduced RCS and empty weight. It is powered by 2 very (now) stable WS-10B 14 ton class engines. However if powered by Saturn AL-117s it will certainly rock. It is rumored that it has an AESA radar that is even more powerful than the 1760 TRMs AESA on the J-16. It will be armed with the 5th gen PL-15 LRAAM and PL-10 HOBS WVRAAM. Can carry 12 AAMs. Integrated IRST and EOTS. It is also rumored that the successful progression of the J-11D program is one of the contributing factors in PLAAF not going forward with the Su-35 acquisition.

My pondering and speculating is not a suggestion by any means that I am against the Su-35 getting inducted in the PAF.

I am actually relishing the possibilities that the current situation is likely to present.

So, my friend, if you are taking my post on J-11D too seriously, please don't. It was not my intention to rankle anyone with my musings.
 
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Sir, I am cool and patient.

After 19 years in software development, constantly dealing with functionalities, non-stop pressure of deadlines, extremely long hours, anxious clients and keeping up with an ever evolving technology base ... I cannot afford to be anything else but be relaxed.

Back to the topic ...

These things take time to come to fruition.

In the meanwhile I can at least treat myself to the luxury of being able to ponder and speculate on the alternatives and J-11D seems to have taken my fancy for the time being it seems. It is extensively RAM coated has a high percentage of composite materials. This has significantly reduced RCS and empty weight. It is powered by 2 very (now) stable WS-10B 14 ton class engines. However if powered by Saturn AL-117s it will certainly rock. It is rumored that it has an AESA radar that is even more powerful than the 1760 TRMs AESA on the J-16. It will be armed with the 5th gen PL-15 LRAAM and PL-10 HOBS WVRAAM. Can carry 12 AAMs. Integrated IRST and EOTS. It is also rumored that the successful progression of the J-11D program is one of the contributing factors in PLAAF not going forward with the Su-35 acquisition.

My pondering and speculating is not a suggestion by any means that I am against the Su-35 getting inducted in the PAF.

I am actually relishing the possibilities that the current situation is likely to present.

So, my friend, if you are taking my post on J-11D too seriously, please don't. It was not my intention to rankle anyone with my musings.
After being reborn , from the hell called kargill ,I'm listening to you dear !
 
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Why NOT Mig-35 for PAF?
Mig-35 is roughly equivalent to F-16 B-50+, also it shares same engine of JFT.
Any thoughts?

Mig has product quality issues too, some time back a export country refused to accept Migs and returned all delivered ones with request for Sukhois.
 
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It seems PAF higher command has no goal in their mind. They are just waiting for india to makes it's move on rafale. PAF seems to be happy with JFT and the Falcon. Defensive approach it seems. Su 35 in PAF colors is out of question. We can't afford to have even two squadrons. Can't afford their maintenance.Entirely new platform, new technology.It will take years to fully integrate the jet in the PAF. The stealth jets of china are on paper right now. The only option left for the PAF is J 10.

J-10 is pretty useless
 
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J-10 is pretty useless

Really?
J-10B has super maneuverability, much more powerful AL-31FN III engine or WS-10B (both available), 1100+ TRMs AESA radar, Integrated IRST, EOTS, HMS and reduced RCS. It is available with these features today. Not some 3 to 4 years down the road in the form of JF-17 Block-III with many of the above features but not at the same level of capability. The AESA will have significantly lesser number of TRMs and no integrated IRST and EOTS.

http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/eastern-arsenal/congratulations-it’s-aesa-radar

...
Once the J-10B enters service, its AESA radar and other electronic enhancements would give it a leg up over Taiwanese F-16s and Vietnamese Su-30s as well as concern US operators. As a US Navy fighter pilot put it, “This is bad news for us.”
...

The above link and quote is more than a year old and the J-10B has entered service a month or so ago.
 
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Really?
J-10B has super maneuverability, much more powerful AL-31FN III engine or WS-10B (both available), 1100+ TRMs AESA radar, Integrated IRST, EOTS, HMS and reduced RCS. It is available with these features today. Not some 3 to 4 years down the road the road in the form of JF-17 Block-III with many of the above features but not at the same level of capability. The AESA will have significantly lesser number of TRMs and no integrated IRST and EOTS.

http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/eastern-arsenal/congratulations-it’s-aesa-radar

Not as good as SU-35. PAF has no intention to buy J-10 from China since the J-31 is on the cards.
 
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Not as good as SU-35. PAF has no intention to buy J-10 from China since the J-31 is on the cards.

Not many fighters in the world are as good as the Su-35. But we will have to see whether we get it or not. J-31 induction is not happening before 2023. Still long ways off. Also when the Super Sukhoi upgrade of the MKI fleet commences from 2019 onwards somewhere around 2023 we may be facing 270 MKIs plus 36 Rafales (all AESA armed) ... our F-16s with Pulse Doppler radar will be at a disadvantage against them. If we can't get AESA for our F-16s we cannot offset these 300+ AESA equipped fighters threat plus FGFA for IAF with just a few squadrons of (say) SU-35 and hopefully J-31. We need to bolster our mid tier as well ... maybe the JF-17 Block-III will have to make do ... but it will be a daunting task ... that can be made considerably easier by inducting a few squadrons of J-10B (or a newer version) post 2020.

Also, just because we may not buy the J-10 doesn't make it useless does it? The whole problem is our lack of funding to do all we need to. Instead we are forced to make compromises. That is why J-10B/FC-20 has been deferred for now.

Just my humble opinion.
 
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Not many fighters in the world are as good as the Su-35. But we will have to see whether we get it or not. J-31 induction is not happening before 2023. Still long ways off. Also when the Super Sukhoi upgrade of the MKI fleet commences from 2019 onwards somewhere around 2023 we may be facing 270 MKIs plus 36 Rafales (all AESA armed) ... our F-16s with Pulse Doppler radar will be at a disadvantage against them. If we can't get AESA for our F-16s we cannot offset these 300+ AESA equipped fighters threat plus FGFA for IAF with just a few squadrons of (say) SU-35 and hopefully J-31. We need to bolster our mid tier as well ... maybe the JF-17 Block-III will have to make do ... but it will be a daunting task ... that can be made considerably easier by inducting a few squadrons of J-10B (or a newer version) post 2020.

Also, just because we may not buy the J-10 doesn't make it useless does it? The whole problem is our lack of funding to do all we need to. Instead we are forced to make compromises. That is why J-10B/FC-20 has been deferred for now.

Just my humble opinion.

I agree with what you saying, but I am talking based on facts... The deal for J-10B was closed during Musharraf's tenure long time back. If J-10B was on the cards then it should be inducted long time back. But as you've said the we have lack of funds (as always for no reason), we couldn't take any firm decision. But since 4++ gen has taken over, I don't think that J-10B is a good competitor in front of Rafale.
 
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I agree with what you saying, but I am talking based on facts... The deal for J-10B was closed during Musharraf's tenure long time back. If J-10B was on the cards then it should be inducted long time back. But as you've said the we have lack of funds (as always for no reason), we couldn't take any firm decision. But since 4++ gen has taken over, I don't think that J-10B is a good competitor in front of Rafale.

The deal was for FC-20 which ever J-10 version fulfilled the specs. J-10A didn't. We needed to wait for J-10B to come in to the picture ... which has had many Pakistani inputs. J-10B has only now been inducted in PLAAF. But the post Musharraf period saw rampant corruption. We were left with barely enough funds to maintain the JF-17 production line. You are entitled to your opinion ... but many believe that it is in the same class as the euro-canards and is definitely 4++ generation. Both J-10B and J-11D are very good options too.
 
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Can some one tell me the number of fighter planes a squadron in PAF has ?
 
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