Tale of a late Muslim Pakistani American F-15 Pilot

[FreekiN]

There are about 3000 or so Muslims serving in America's army... (correct me if I m wrong)

30,000 which is 0.81% of the US military

Muslims are 0.90% of total US population.

Hence, the ratio is fine and perfectly normal.

p.s. Make that 30,001 because my bro will join the Marines.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I would like to ask a question from the good folks who say that country should be kept above religion. What if a person of Pakistani origin with American nationality join American military. Michelle has a big fight with Obama and upsets him terribly. Obama orders American F15s to shoot some Pakistani jets for the sake of relieving his frustration with Michelle. Do you think that this American Pakistani should even engage Pakistani fighter jets taking off to defend the mother land?

Not in a million years can I attack my own army!!!

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I would like to ask a question from the good folks who say that country should be kept above religion. What if a person of Pakistani origin with American nationality join American military. Michelle has a big fight with Obama and upsets him terribly. Obama orders American F15s to shoot some Pakistani jets for the sake of relieving his frustration with Michelle. Do you think that this American Pakistani should even engage Pakistani fighter jets taking off to defend the mother land?

Not in a million years can I attack my own army!!!

we shouldnt delve into such unlikely scenarios....I 'sympathize' and fathom your post.


but in all honesty, Muhammad bhai, if he were a truly professional soldier no matter how much he was ideologically opposed to such an order, he would dutifully carry out orders as instructed --regardless of his personal emotions or aspiration


If Obama gets in a fight with first lady Michelle, then he wont get any cornbread with fried chicken for dinner

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

we shouldnt delve into such unlikely scenarios....I 'sympathize' and fathom your post.


but in all honesty, Muhammad bhai, if he were a truly professional soldier no matter how much he was ideologically opposed to such an order, he would dutifully carry out orders as instructed --regardless of his personal emotions or aspiration


If Obama gets in a fight with first lady Michelle, then he wont get any cornbread with fried chicken for dinner

Well a Muslim who is ideological would obviously not become a part of an institution that could force him to do something against his convictions... This is why I oppose Muslims to join American armed forces... This is our dilemma today that we have made our ideology into a mere religion and unless we start thinking about these issues, we shall stay stuck...

Another point that I should add here is that strict adherence to orders proves no excuse in the very western courts and countries who now demand such loyalty from Muslims... May I remind you that a lot of Nazis presented this same argument... that they were soldiers and were under orders... We have to be very careful otherwise we may become the reason for Genocide of a certain group of people... This notion of justice is the only thing that can unite humanity... and the American elite are well aware of this... This is why they created a patriotic zeal in their soldiers... of them having been attack unjustly... Without that, they could not and cannot achieve their goals... The only way to pit humans against other humans is thru this exploitation of the human mind... If it was wrong for a group of disgruntled Arabs to attack America on 9/11 yesterday, then similarly it is wrong for CIA operatives to fire hell fire missiles and kill women and children using drones in the name of war against terrorism... no matter what the excuse may be...

I would rather face court martial than have the guilt of killing innocent people and face God on judgement day... because I was ordered to do so as a soldier...

As for the Nazis, they were hanged... and they ll burn in hell fire for what they have done to the Jews and the rest of Europe!!!

 

[genmirajborgza786]

I would like to ask a question from the good folks who say that country should be kept above religion. What if a person of Pakistani origin with American nationality join American military. Michelle has a big fight with Obama and upsets him terribly. Obama orders American F15s to shoot some Pakistani jets for the sake of relieving his frustration with Michelle. Do you think that this American Pakistani should even engage Pakistani fighter jets taking off to defend the mother land?

Not in a million years can I attack my own army!!!

we shouldnt delve into such unlikely scenarios....I 'sympathize' and fathom your post.
but in all honesty, Muhammad bhai, if he were a truly professional soldier no matter how much he was ideologically opposed to such an order, he would dutifully carry out orders as instructed --regardless of his personal emotions or aspiration

take the indo/pak case some indian born officers of pakistani armies eg:air force M.m.alam born in my famylies city of calcutta fought against india 1965war,Nishan-e-Haider Tufail Mohammad born in Hoshiarpur pinjub,india fought against india in 1971 Hilal-e-Jurat Major General Sher Ali Khan born in Pataudi Haryana india fought against india in 1947 war

indian army officer's born in pakistan fought agaisnt pakistan
eg:'Bir Pratik' Lieutenant General Jagjit Singh Arora born in jhelum pakistan fought agaisnt pakistan in 1971, Maha Vir Chakra Lt. Gen. Zorawar Chand Bakhshi born in rawalpindi pakistan fought agaisnt pakistan in 47-48 war,65 war.


so if there would be any conflict back then between U.S/Pakistan the pakistani muslim american f-15 pilot should have fought on the side of the U.S against Pakistan with out the shadow of any doub't. for also if there is a conflict between canada or any other country i would support & fight & happily die for canada against any country be it the country where i was born or be it a muslim country would still fight against it

 

[fatman17]

very moving and sad story
RIP brave aviator

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Well a Muslim who is ideological would obviously not become a part of an institution that could force him to do something against his convictions... This is why I oppose Muslims to join American armed forces... This is our dilemma today that we have made our ideology into a mere religion and unless we start thinking about these issues, we shall stay stuck...

Another point that I should add here is that strict adherence to orders proves no excuse in the very western courts and countries who now demand such loyalty from Muslims... May I remind you that a lot of Nazis presented this same argument... that they were soldiers and were under orders... We have to be very careful otherwise we may become the reason for Genocide of a certain group of people... This notion of justice is the only thing that can unite humanity... and the American elite are well aware of this... This is why they created a patriotic zeal in their soldiers... of them having been attack unjustly... Without that, they could not and cannot achieve their goals... The only way to pit humans against other humans is thru this exploitation of the human mind... If it was wrong for a group of disgruntled Arabs to attack America on 9/11 yesterday, then similarly it is wrong for CIA operatives to fire hell fire missiles and kill women and children using drones in the name of war against terrorism... no matter what the excuse may be...

I would rather face court martial than have the guilt of killing innocent people and face God on judgement day... because I was ordered to do so as a soldier...

As for the Nazis, they were hanged... and they ll burn in hell fire for what they have done to the Jews and the rest of Europe!!!

I can't think of many sins worse than Muslims killing other Muslims --or anybody for that matter

war is no game; people die


by the way, i wasnt endorsing such. Just want to make that clear. However, I am speaking merely from the standpoint and perspective of a soldier ---disregarding everything else (which, granted, in Islam we set aside everything else when it comes to pleasing Allah SWT and abiding by that which He has commanded on us)


then again, if you take an oath, then you take an oath......such considerations should be made in advance

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

right take the indo/pak case some indian born officers of pakistani armies eg:air force M.m.alam born in my famylies city of calcutta fought against india 1965war,Nishan-e-Haider Tufail Mohammad born in Hoshiarpur pinjub,india fought against india in 1971 Hilal-e-Jurat Major General Sher Ali Khan born in Pataudi Haryana india fought against india in 1947 war

indian army officer's born in pakistan fought agaisnt pakistan
eg:'Bir Pratik' Lieutenant General Jagjit Singh Arora born in jhelum pakistan fought agaisnt pakistan in 1971, Maha Vir Chakra Lt. Gen. Zorawar Chand Bakhshi born in rawalpindi pakian fought agaisnt pakistan in 47-48 war,65 war.


so if there would be any conflict back then between U.S/Pakistan the pakistani muslim american f-15 pilot should have fought on the side of the U.S against Pakistan with out the shadow of any doub't.

Excellent points about Indian born Pakistani soldiers etc... I had thought of that also...

Muslims should not join the Indian army at all... Pakistan stands for Islam by its very ideology (even though we implement none of it)...

Infact I find any Indian Muslim singing praises of Indian government as down right disgraceful... Loyalty to ones land does not mean that we start taking pride in every nonsense that arises from that land...

I agree with Abu Zolfiqar and that is my point basically... Think before you leap... Perhaps we as Muslims living in the west are more acutely aware of such issues... I dont know... despite our best efforts to keep good relationships between ourselves and the native community, we
are all too aware of the hate against Muslims that comes from a certain section of society here... I have personally seen this hate and have seen how problems are created for our people on almost a daily basis... The west in many ways manages to project a very good and humble side of theirs to the Muslim world... I swear I was not aware of many things that go around in western countries until I actually started to interact with people here... but then... there is good and bad everywhere!!!

 

[forcetrip]

I would like to ask a question from the good folks who say that country should be kept above religion. What if a person of Pakistani origin with American nationality join American military. Michelle has a big fight with Obama and upsets him terribly. Obama orders American F15s to shoot some Pakistani jets for the sake of relieving his frustration with Michelle. Do you think that this American Pakistani should even engage Pakistani fighter jets taking off to defend the mother land?

Not in a million years can I attack my own army!!!

In the highly unlikely scenario that it would happen, the answer would be yes. Only if Obama confirms that michelle was acting mean with that Pakistani pilot should he question his decision. Country first.

 

[ZaYYaF]

May the soldier rest in peace.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

In the highly unlikely scenario that it would happen, the answer would be yes. Only if Obama confirms that michelle was acting mean with that Pakistani pilot should he question his decision. Country first.

Such a person on dying would be in a terrible place on the last day having stood up with the intention to kill another Muslim... TTP comes to mind...

 

[SQ8]

Excellent points about Indian born Pakistani soldiers etc... I had thought of that also...

Muslims should not join the Indian army at all... Pakistan stands for Islam by its very ideology (even though we implement none of it)...

Infact I find any Indian Muslim singing praises of Indian government as down right disgraceful... Loyalty to ones land does not mean that we start taking pride in every nonsense that arises from that land...

I agree with Abu Zolfiqar and that is my point basically... Think before you leap... Perhaps we as Muslims living in the west are more acutely aware of such issues... I dont know... despite our best efforts to keep good relationships between ourselves and the native community, we
are all too aware of the hate against Muslims that comes from a certain section of society here... I have personally seen this hate and have seen how problems are created for our people on almost a daily basis... The west in many ways manages to project a very good and humble side of theirs to the Muslim world... I swear I was not aware of many things that go around in western countries until I actually started to interact with people here... but then... there is good and bad everywhere!!!

So in other words the founding father of the country was wrong in saying religion should not have anything to do with the conduct of the state..
Here's a scenario.. the people of a fictional Islamic republic called Islamia are at war with a tiny breakaway section of Jewish majority called Davidia..
Islamia has hudood laws.. a shura.. what not..
yet.. by all reports.. of press and everything.. Islamia has been using its power to brutally suppress all parts of Davidia.. impose blockades, its soldiers are raping and plundering..and there people are dying..
For all the world knows.. the conflict is more ethnically motivated than anything else..
Now is it wrong for any muslim to speak out against Islamia??
Or to participate in a peacekeeping force to control such atrocities??
if so he does is he bound for the hell-fire??
Since after all.. Islamia was founded on a Muslim ideology...

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Excellent points about Indian born Pakistani soldiers etc... I had thought of that also...

Muslims should not join the Indian army at all... Pakistan stands for Islam by its very ideology (even though we implement none of it)...

Infact I find any Indian Muslim singing praises of Indian government as down right disgraceful... Loyalty to ones land does not mean that we start taking pride in every nonsense that arises from that land...

I agree with Abu Zolfiqar and that is my point basically... Think before you leap... Perhaps we as Muslims living in the west are more acutely aware of such issues... I dont know... despite our best efforts to keep good relationships between ourselves and the native community, we
are all too aware of the hate against Muslims that comes from a certain section of society here... I have personally seen this hate and have seen how problems are created for our people on almost a daily basis... The west in many ways manages to project a very good and humble side of theirs to the Muslim world... I swear I was not aware of many things that go around in western countries until I actually started to interact with people here... but then... there is good and bad everywhere!!!

Dude seriously your mindset on this matter is seriously disturbed & troublesome

Such a person on dying would be in a terrible place on the last day having stood up with the intention to kill another Muslim... TTP comes to mind...

worship GOD dont try to act GOD by judging people & throwing them to hell all by yourself amazing ain't it

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

So in other words the founding father of the country was wrong in saying religion should not have anything to do with the conduct of the state..
Here's a scenario.. the people of a fictional Islamic republic called Islamia are at war with a tiny breakaway section of Jewish majority called Davidia..
Islamia has hudood laws.. a shura.. what not..
yet.. by all reports.. of press and everything.. Islamia has been using its power to brutally suppress all parts of Davidia.. impose blockades, its soldiers are raping and plundering..and there people are dying..
For all the world knows.. the conflict is more ethnically motivated than anything else..
Now is it wrong for any muslim to speak out against Islamia??
Or to participate in a peacekeeping force to control such atrocities??
if so he does is he bound for the hell-fire??
Since after all.. Islamia was founded on a Muslim ideology...

Dont be silly Santro. You really think such a state can be considered Islamic?

Heres what you need to do in such a scenario. Defend the Jews with your wealth and even your life if you can against Islamia...

Islam is nt just an ideology or constitution... it is also action... so a man will be considered a Muslim by his belief but he will also be judged based on his actions in this life... the actions that you are describing are nothing from Islam are they?

The Prophet said. (Translation)

The best of martyrs is Hamza Ibn Mutalab and the man who speaks the word of truth to a tyrant ruler and the ruler kills him because of it... so it is the best of people who speak out against Batil and ready to lay their lives for Haqq.

You are describing tyranny and tyranny is tyranny no matter if it is done in the name of Islam or not...

We have seen such "Islams" in the form of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and the Taliban when they were ruling Afghanistan...

 

[SQ8]

.....

worship GOD dont try to act GOD by judging people & throwing them to hell all by yourself amazing ain't it

Could not have said it any better