Take Tajikistan, but give Afghanistan to India: Ghani’s proposal to Pakistan can change the ...

[Indus Pakistan]

Kashgar, China is the key. As long as we connect to Kashgar we have entire Central Asia, western China and even Russian Siberia in reach. So KKH is vital. Over the horizon I expect the KKH to be converted into expressway and rail line to connect with Chinese network through Kashgar again. So let us look at KKH.

Near southern section in Pakistan.

KKH or N35 as numbered in Pakistan Highway Network codes. Kunjerab is on the border pass into China. The English, Chinese and Russian shows where this road is going. It links with the wider Silk Road between Russia, Central Asia and China. Kashgar ( Kashi ) is the node for Pakistan to link. KKH does this. We need to turn this into expressway - The South portion is already expressway and build rail line.

Passing through Hunza. I believe we have a PDF member from this area.

and the border on Kunjerab Pass

 

[GR!FF!N]

So even if Kulma pass is not ideal, the main transit route between China and Central Asia with both rail + road is going to be via Kyrgyzstan (Torugart and Erkeshtam pass). Khorgos gateway is the main planned route via Kazakhstan:

All of the trade routes are for bilateral trade..Are you sure China,who has so much trouble to make business with these countries because of inadequate period and means(Most of Chinese Trucks have to wait significant amount of time) to make trade with these countries(as Most of these pass remains open for 5-6 months),they're going to allow Pakistan to make trade using these,which are overburdened??Also,what about treaties which is going to make Bilateral trade routes multilateral??Do you even know that most of these trade routes doesn't allow foreigners??and what about transport cost??Using Chinese routes means hundreds of KMs of extra travelling cost,not to mention the extra fee that China might charge as "Transit fee".

now...

Torugart Pass-Still not open for a third country.
Irkeshtam pass is only way into Kyrgyzstan via China,but it is overburdened.It is quite unlike that China will allow a Pass to a third country when they're having difficulties right now..I'm not taking proposed routes into account.

 

[Spy Master]

All of the trade routes are for bilateral trade..Are you sure China,who has so much trouble to make business with these countries because of inadequate period and means(Most of Chinese Trucks have to wait significant amount of time) to make trade with these countries(as Most of these pass remains open for 5-6 months),they're going to allow Pakistan to make trade using these,which are overburdened??Also,what about treaties which is going to make Bilateral trade routes multilateral??Do you even know that most of these trade routes doesn't allow foreigners??and what about transport cost??Using Chinese routes means hundreds of KMs of extra travelling cost,not to mention the extra fee that China might charge as "Transit fee".

now...

Torugart Pass-Still not open for a third country.
Irkeshtam pass is only way into Kyrgyzstan via China,but it is overburdened.It is quite unlike that China will allow a Pass to a third country when they're having difficulties right now..I'm not taking proposed routes into account.

Tajikistan Pakistan Relations
Trade is happening between both countries and its obvious it is through this route...!

 

[A-Team]

Here is an Afghan perspective!

I am sorry to point this to you ( both Pakistani and Indian friends) but you guys are both stuck 19th century thinking.
It is 2015 we need a new narrative, which is full mesh connectivity between central , south asia and beyond to bring about a revolution in the region. The region as Ashraf Ghani has put it is the least connected region in the world.

All routes both via Afghanistan or via China should be utilized so that the region can prosper, if India or Pakistan prosper the positive effects will be felt in Afghanistan and vice versa

The region spends billions on weapons while the common man suffers on the street, the mindset should be changed from Seclusion to Inclusion. Just imagine the poverty on the streets of Delhi, Islamabad and Kabul, do we really need to live like this for eternity?

Imagine a full mesh connectivity between STANS, Afghanistan, China, Pakistan, India, all the way to Nepal, and beyond will historical repercussion for the region.

So stop squabbling and be inclusive folks.

/ Peace

 

[Basel]

Thats out of question for me. Rather they should concentrate on sea. As for Tajikistan and rest of CARs we should concentrate through China.

Right, Pakistan must not take any route through Afghanistan, instead China route will be more secure and hassle free although it may be longer.

 

[Tiger Genie]

So once again Pakistan shoots itself in its foot for bragging rights. The more Pak says no, the more they dig their own grave in their relationship with Afghanistan and more it endears Afghanistan to India. Whoever dug up this issue for Ghani is Delhi is genius.

 

[pakistani342]

Balance:

Right Side:
Pakistan has given Afghanistan access to ports for 68 years
Pakistan has hosted 6 million Afghans for years and continues to host 3 million

Left Side:
The changed good hearted illuminated Ashraf Ghani threats Pakistan the first chance he gets

Question:
Do Pakistanis really want to trust their trade routes to Afghanistan?

Possible Answer:
I sure as hell wouldn't trust the Afghans with my pair of slippers for 5 minutes.

Rather than getting distracted by a country that has stabbed Pakistan every chance it has gotten Pakistan should focus its merger execution resources (remember Pakistan now has a lethargic bureaucracy, security problems, local political issues) on getting integrated with China.

I'd say we invite/co-fund China to open cultural/language centers where Pakistanis can study the Chinese languages and culture - to make this integration as organic as possible.

You can see Pakistani men wear the ghutra(keffiyeh) in Pakistan due to the economic ties with the middle east - maybe we'll see Tangzhuang or other items too.

Afghans: bin nice knowing ya - live long and prosper - but please on the other side of the Durand line

 

[I M Sikander]

So once again Pakistan shoots itself in its foot for bragging rights. The more Pak says no, the more they dig their own grave in their relationship with Afghanistan and more it endears Afghanistan to India. Whoever dug up this issue for Ghani is Delhi is genius.

Its a dead issue from day one. Psk afghan trade has been like this during past 67 years and it will remain so. No reason to panic for Pakistan.

 

[Tiger Genie]

Its a dead issue from day one. Psk afghan trade has been like this during past 67 years and it will remain so. No reason to panic for Pakistan.

You are missing it by a desi mile! the impex trade is only a façade in the issue. Real issue is turning Afghan people against Pakistan. That makes AfPak border even worse than living inside Pakistan....and that is what Ghani is accomplishing here by forcing Pakistan's hands to say no.

India's economy and trade is so big that even if Afghan trade multiplies 10 fold, it is still a pimple.

 

[pakistani342]

You are missing it by a desi mile! the impex trade is only a façade in the issue. Real issue is turning Afghan people against Pakistan. That makes AfPak border even worse than living inside Pakistan....and that is what Ghani is accomplishing here by forcing Pakistan's hands to say no.

If hosting, at times 1 in 6 Afghans alive for 30 years has not made Afghans our friends -- nothing will in the short term.

What is surprising is that rather than be grateful -- Afghans resent that they have to rely on Pakistan for access to the sea -- go figure.

We can revisit friendship with Afghans in 30 years for now let's focus on friendship with China.

Before Ashraf Ghani became president he threatened Pakistan with a 6 generation war (or was it 3) -- that is Pakistan's status with the Afghan people.

Further what Ghani sab conveniently left out is that Afghanistan's access to China is through Pakistan too ;-) -- perhaps like Karzai he has a penchant for smoking Afghanistan's major export too ;-)

 

[Thorough Pro]

We will take Tajikistan and will keep Afghanistan too. India can suck our balls.

 

[mike2000 is back]

when India completes the construction of chahbahar port in Iran, pakistans and china's little influence in Afghanistan will be as good as over.

India to develop Iran's Chabahar port - timesofindia-economictimes

I dont really understand why Pakistan and India cant caste away their differences at least economically and trade with each other just like East Asian countries do. Whats wrong with you people in South Asia for GODS sake? You are already the poorest and most backward/least intergrated region in Asia and the world, yet you people dont even care nor have any intention of changing things....jeez this region seems to be curse. China, Japan, Korea all have issues/differences/hatred among them, yet they dont let that get in the way of trade/business/investments from each other. Reason East Asia is sooo prosperous to the point that for an outsider like me visiting the two regions(i.e south Asia and east Asia) for the first time i was shocked, since it was like leaving europe for the poorest regions in Africa(only tht most african countries are better off than even south asia.). South Asia really needs to wake up and be more pragmatic to be honest. And yes that will mean Pakistan will need to stop its paranoia about India and open up for trade since it too will benefit alot from this. Aid can never be of aid to a country, TRADE is and has always been the case.

On anothr note, you shouldnt have mentioned China in this to be honest, since they have far more influence/business/trade and friendly relations with Iran than India, and they also have a land connectivity/route to Afghanistan which gives them more leeway over these countries than India, so i dont think you should mix them(again this shows the loser zero sum game mentality you south Asians have) with Pakistan.

Here is an Afghan perspective!

I am sorry to point this to you ( both Pakistani and Indian friends) but you guys are both stuck 19th century thinking.
It is 2015 we need a new narrative, which is full mesh connectivity between central , south asia and beyond to bring about a revolution in the region. The region as Ashraf Ghani has put it is the least connected region in the world.

All routes both via Afghanistan or via China should be utilized so that the region can prosper, if India or Pakistan prosper the positive effects will be felt in Afghanistan and vice versa

The region spends billions on weapons while the common man suffers on the street, the mindset should be changed from Seclusion to Inclusion. Just imagine the poverty on the streets of Delhi, Islamabad and Kabul, do we really need to live like this for eternity?

Imagine a full mesh connectivity between STANS, Afghanistan, China, Pakistan, India, all the way to Nepal, and beyond will historical repercussion for the region.

So stop squabbling and be inclusive folks.

/ Peace

Spot on bro. well said. however im afraid your advice will fall on deaf ears to indians and pakistanis. so please safe your energy.lol

 

[kalu_miah]

All of the trade routes are for bilateral trade..Are you sure China,who has so much trouble to make business with these countries because of inadequate period and means(Most of Chinese Trucks have to wait significant amount of time) to make trade with these countries(as Most of these pass remains open for 5-6 months),they're going to allow Pakistan to make trade using these,which are overburdened??Also,what about treaties which is going to make Bilateral trade routes multilateral??Do you even know that most of these trade routes doesn't allow foreigners??and what about transport cost??Using Chinese routes means hundreds of KMs of extra travelling cost,not to mention the extra fee that China might charge as "Transit fee".

now...

Torugart Pass-Still not open for a third country.
Irkeshtam pass is only way into Kyrgyzstan via China,but it is overburdened.It is quite unlike that China will allow a Pass to a third country when they're having difficulties right now..I'm not taking proposed routes into account.

The video of Irkeshtam pass in my previous speaks for itself, also read the wiki description that I included in my post, it is open for whole year, except for Kyrgyz and Chinese holidays. Torugart pass is still work in progress, and both will have railway in the near future, as part of Chinese Belt and Road (Silk) initiative.

This is a 5 year old video of Torugart pass, I am sure it is much different today:

As for high mountain passes being closed in cold winter months, this is mainly because of bad weather and snow combined with still undeveloped roads and railways. Once roads and railways are fully developed and there is crew to cleanup snow from the roads and tracks, the closed months will no longer be closed.

Transport cost by truck and rail is not cheap and in Central Asia, there is no cheap short cut sea route, because it is a land locked region.

Here is some info on cost and time needed for shipment to the region:
2.3.1 Tajikistan Road Corridors to Afghanistan - Logistics Capacity Assessment - Wiki - Digital Logistics Capacity Assessments

About China not allowing foreigners to trans-ship through their territory, just talk to anyone in the logistics and shipping industry, they will give you the real picture. To reach Central Asia from Bangladesh, a container costs around $6000 via Bandar Abbas, but around $10k via Chinese ports and then by train to Amaty or Bishkek. The Chinese route is definitely long, because they are traveling by train from Hong Kong, Shanghai or other northern ports, that is why it costs more, but its faster and more reliable. The Iran route is not as reliable. Pakistan route will not only be good for Pakistan, it will open up a great route for Bangladeshi businessmen as well, as Bangladesh is one of the biggest importer of Uzbek cotton.

So people are doing it (third country going through China to Central Asia) now and has been doing it for some years. The new routes will make things cheaper and quicker. The main container rail route from China to Central Asia now is via Alataw/Alatau pass Kazakhstan, which will soon be supplemented by Khorgos as I mentioned in my previous post.

Alashankou Railway Station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Alashankou railway station (Chinese: 阿拉山口站; pinyin: Ālāshānkǒu zhàn), also known as Alataw Pass railway station (also spelt Alatau and Ala Tau) is a railway station in Börtala Mongol Autonomous Prefecture of China's Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region.

Located on the Chinese side of the Dzungarian Gate pass through the Dzungarian Alatau mountain range at the 2358.376 km point of Lanxin railway, it is the last station on the Northern Xinjiang branch of the Lanxin railway before entering Kazakhstan. For the first twenty-plus years of its history it was the only railway port of entry in western China; during this time, the volume of international rail freight going through the Alashankou port of entry grew from 160,000 tons in 1991 to 15,160,000 tons in 2011.[1]

In another report (not quite consistent with the previous one), the volume of rail freight crossing the border at Alashankou during the first 10 months of 2011 were reported as 8,921,000, which was said to be a 12.8 increase over the previous year. The volume of traffic, measured by weight, going from Kazakhstan to China is much higher than from China to Kazakhstan (7,412,000 tons vs. 1,509,000 tons). The main commodities that went from Kazakhstan to China via Alashankou were iron ore, high-carbon ferrochrome, wheat, and steel. Among the goods shipped from China to Kazakhstan, the main groups were steel (in particular, steel pipes), electronics, and tomato paste.[2]

There is also a passenger train, Almaty-Urumqi, that crosses the border at Alashankou.

It is expected that the second railway port of entry on the Sino-Kazakh border, at Khorgos, will open in the late 2012.[1]"

Trans-Eurasia railway connects China with Europe

Astana Urumqi passenger train

 

[kalu_miah]

There is some confusion about mountain passes and rail road connection between Xinjiang China and former Soviet Central Asia. The lowest historical pass is:

Dzungarian Gate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (450 m) or Alataw pass, this is the current main train route from Urumqi to Almaty

The next lowest is Khorgos/Khorgas/Qorgas:
Khorgas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (elevation in nearest city Yining around 700 m)
Jinghe–Yining–Khorgos Railway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yining City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (elevation 700 m)
Kazakhstan seek to be main New Silk Road transit country - AzerNews
Khorgos-Eastern Gate SEZ in Kazakhstan to hold international presentation

This Khorgos is the 2nd up and coming Trans Eurasia rail route connecting EU and China via Kazakhstan.

The much higher Irkeshtam pass in Kyrgyzstan at 3000 m is fully operational and open year round for road travel. It will soon get a rail route. This is very close to Kashgar and is more relevant for Pakistan.

But containers from Pakistan route that reaches Kashgar, can also go via northern train routes in Kazakhstan, depending on where the final destination is.

Torugart pass at 3700 meter is still not open whole year, because I believe it is not fully developed yet, even as a fully paved road.

Kulma pass of Tajikistan at 4400 m high, is not one of the major planned international routes in the Silk road initiative. I believe it is mainly for use by surrounding areas in Tajikistan and local China-Tajik trade. Tajikistan bound international cargo can reach there via Kyrgyzstan.

 

[friendly_troll96]

Punjabi mn kehtay hn tattay jitnay b barray ho jyn rehtay lun k neechay e hain (no matter how large the testicles may grow, they'll remain under the diick). Tattas here being Afghanistan and Iran, they can have their affair with India all they want but at the end of the day it's still the arsehole -- stinky and good for shiit.