Tahir ul Qadri And his Movement

[Jungibaaz]

Agenda
1) Removal of government and Assembly should be dissolved

Removal of an elected government, treason. Qadri's methods will make Pakistan descend in to civil war. God protect us from this sort of movement.

Not to mention, Pakistan will be in political turmoil, ANY investment declared over the last few years would fly away, capital flight. You will definitely see PTI, PMLN, PPP, MQM opposing PAT.

I don't think it's fair for TuQ and a few thousand of his supporters to decide the future of 190 million.

2) Formation of National democratic interim government with consensus of all political and no political stake holders and new election will be conducted after electoral reforms and this government will provide:

Wow.

So how exactly does one remove all sorts of elected federal and local governments and then get a 'consensus' of all parties for a new interim government. What a load of crap.

1-Every homeless will be given a home

How? Pakistan does not have the money, Pakistan is a poor country that cannot support a welfare state.

2-Every person would be given employment or employment allowance

Note the wording...

'Every person would be given employment'.

I bet millions will remain unemployed, ask any economist and ask them whether this claim of Qadri's is going to bite him if he ever takes power. It's not physically possible to eliminate unemployment, or even get within a few percent of getting rid of it.

3-Subsidies on basic utilities

Again, where will be getting money for all this? IMF?

4-All taxes will be eliminated from the gas, water and electricity bills for lower middle class

So. Let me get this straight, he plans to cut taxes hugely, then raise government spending, hugely.
That will turn us in to Greece.

5-Official insurance scheme would be introduced and free medical treatment for poor.

More pipe dreams, no word of how to fund such a monolith task???

The UK spends $200 billion on National Health Service. That's several times, Pak's total budget. And that 200 bill is only for 60 million people, Pakistan has more than 3 times that number.

6-Educational reform

What kind of reform?

7-Fifty million acres Gov owned cultivable land would be distributed among the poor.

Distributing of government owned land? Again, not selling it and giving it away is not right.

8-Sectarianism, terrorism and extremism will be eliminated. Peace training centres will be opened. Syllabi of religious seminaries would be revised and amended. Nobody will be allowed to say Kafir to each other and an Islamic-Secular state with religious tolerance

So secularism? Nope, didn't think so.
Qadri likes to point out the European model, but what he forgets is that one of the essential components is secularism and the fact that they are already developed.

I'd like to see how he deals with people who don't follow his religious ruling. I'd like to see how he handles the TTP kind any better than the Army and successive, REPRESENTATIVE governments.

9-Women empowerment

How?

10-Disparity in the pay structures of all senior and junior public and private sector employees will be minimized to possible extent

Possible extent? This really shows he doesn't even know his own policies. If they wan't it done, there should be more details, aims and then we could calculate repercussions.

But, no, he likes to speak generically.

The above agenda will be financed by removal of tax concessions to elite class,

Won't be enough. The groups of people in Pakistan aren't paying their taxes, Elite and lower middle and poor.

decreasing corruptions,

How!?!?

Arrangements with Swiss bank,

You think you can somehow convince them with angry shouting and long marches to hand over their money?
Fat chance.

Gold and coal mining, exploration of oil and gas and 50 other sources which he haven’t mentioned in speech

You need relevant companies to come back for Gold, coal, oil and gas exploration. And we don't have much proven Gold or oil reserves, so that's just a farce. But it doesn't matter, his plans will screw up political stability and the economy that no firms in their right mind would invest in Pakistan.

Meaning no gold, coal, oil or gas. And loss of current deals too.

Stage

3: He will announce to enter in Red zone peacefully and stage a sit on constitution avenue

Yes, TuQ will bring the most peaceful bloody revolution ever.

 

[Viny]

The corruption is extremely high. Otherwise, it is possible in accordance to Qadri in this case. High taxes from rich while low taxes almost to none from middle-class including poor-class.

The billion-dollars invested energy projects will get started in matter of few years later and beyond, and then, the economy will start to normalize, that being said curtailing the corruption is the way to address poverty as starter.

Qadri has good policy; introduces fair transparent solutions in respond to broken system that continues to shelter corrupted leaders. Qadri is nothing like Imran Khan. He is different; smart, educated and very-well informed. His policy is basically anti-elite club in form of taxes while pro-poor in form of bill free and its benefits. This is exactly what Pakistan needs.

Zakat system is the purpose of addressing poverty concerns along with the other benefits for civilians with medical reasons initiated by two Companions of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (R.A) while Abu Bakr (R.A) fought for the implementation of Zakat system; had regions committed to Zakat system - fought those who refused until agreed to endorse Zakat system. This is important, very crucial concerns for Pakistan as the society is imbalanced noting 'rich gets richer - poor gets poorer' lately. Poverty is the best weapons to fuel chaos, disharmony and criminal activities must be addressed as this is top priority level.

What would you do if elites will flew out of country with there wealth?
Heavy taxing elites above certain point leads to malpractices, tax evasions and fund diversions.
Unfortunately even if Pakistan nationalises all its top pvt companies, it would still be struggling to pay its dues.
To keep healthy economic state and to give boast to economy, reducing taxes and increasing tax base is the way to move ahead. This can be achieved by digitization and inter connectivity and slowly moving towards paperless currency or plastic currency.

Any destabilization of country be it due to terrorism or political activism, its causing revenue loss to country, which pakistan cannot afford. Ideal way would to be to ensure democratic govt runs its terms and then elect a better stable govt in next round. Make ministers responsible, bring in RTI and public reportings, pressurizing govt to be transparent about its growth objectives.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Tahir ul Qadri is a well intentioned Islamic Scholar and has a long record of Service.

We should support him in his quest to clean up Pakistani Politics.

Anything is better than STATUSQUO because Pakistani Politics has hit rock bottom.

 

[Panther 57]

He says he wants this and that for the poor, has he ever outlined an economic reform plan to make such things happen?
Ask any economist in the world, Pakistan cannot afford a welfare state, it's a poor country economically, you can't make European style governance in a poor country.

He has given a broad outline and what he says is statistically correct. Answer to your question is that yes Pakistan can become a welfare state, provided we have sincere leadership. My study indicates that if we have sincere and focused leaders Pakistan's currency can be at par with GBP within 2 years. That is something else that our exporters will not like it. Though it will be a big relief for 190 million people.

What would you do if elites will flew out of country with there wealth?
Heavy taxing elites above certain point leads to malpractices, tax evasions and fund diversions.

It is not heavy taxation but fair and just taxation which is required. Even a panwala should feel pride in giving some tax, though they are much better off then many executives, its just the dress up which makes them appear poor.

 

[Jungibaaz]

He has given a broad outline and what he says is statistically correct. Answer to your question is that yes Pakistan can become a welfare state, provided we have sincere leadership. My study indicates that if we have sincere and focused leaders Pakistan's currency can be at par with GBP within 2 years. That is something else that our exporters will not like it. Though it will be a big relief for 190 million people.

Please share it with me then, here preferably.

 

[Panther 57]

Please share it with me then, here preferably.

Dr. Tahir ul Qadri's Speech At Inqilab March Dharna - 17th August 2014 Dr. Tahir ul Qadri's Speech At Inqilab March Dharna - 17th August 2014

 

[rohailmalhi]

I thought people here at defence forum are educated and sensible enough but it seems I was wrong.

This Mr Qadri & his army of dumb minioons are nothing but idoits. Who the hell is he btw a no one in Pakistani Politics and how calls him an Islamic scholar should go and research about him. He is pathetic lier and a mushriq who is using Islam to divide and spread choas in this country. He is no different than TTP .He is using Charity money to organize all this topi drama . Most of the people are there for money ,they dont give a damn what this clown is demanding.

Kindly people do some research before making him a leader or Islamic scholar. He is far from being a Scholar .

 

[Panther 57]

please suggest an alternate.

I thought people here at defence forum are educated and sensible enough but it seems I was wrong.

This Mr Qadri & his army of dumb minioons are nothing but idoits. Who the hell is he btw a no one in Pakistani Politics and how calls him an Islamic scholar should go and research about him. He is pathetic lier and a mushriq who is using Islam to divide and spread choas in this country. He is no different than TTP .He is using Charity money to organize all this topi drama . Most of the people are there for money ,they dont give a damn what this clown is demanding.

Kindly people do some research before making him a leader or Islamic scholar. He is far from being a Scholar .

 

[Jungibaaz]

please suggest an alternate.

Press for changes in the ECP, wait out this government and if you think your plans for Pakistan are better. Run for the elections.

We don't need a revolution at a time where governments in the Middle East and beyond are challenged like this and civil war ensues. The PMLN have a clear mandate, they deserve their 5 years, however bad they may serve.

TuQ claims this and that about Revolution in conjunction with democracy. No democratic system that is perfect was ever bought about by revolution itself, it takes decades if not centuries. To uproot governments that are bad is not democratic and defeats the ENTIRE purpose of democracy all together. Ask any political science major in the West and they will also say that it is foolish and at a time like this, in a region and country like ours, it's madness.

p.s. I'm still watching that video of yours I'm 20 mins in.

 

[Panther 57]

Press for changes in the ECP, wait out this government and if you think your plans for Pakistan are better. Run for the elections.

We don't need a revolution at a time where governments in the Middle East and beyond are challenged like this and civil war ensues. The PMLN have a clear mandate, they deserve their 5 years, however bad they may serve.

TuQ claims this and that about Revolution in conjunction with democracy. No democratic system that is perfect was ever bought about by revolution itself, it takes decades if not centuries. To uproot governments that are bad is not democratic and defeats the ENTIRE purpose of democracy all together. Ask any political science major in the West and they will also say that it is foolish and at a time like this, in a region and country like ours, it's madness.

p.s. I'm still watching that video of yours I'm 20 mins in.

Under present circumstances only these faces can be seen in assembly. The system needs revamping. You being in UK do not have any idea how much is common man suppressed. What is the level of inflation and corruption in this country. Once bribe was taken covertly now it is being asked openly. You have no idea how these politician backed gangs and mafia are extorting money from common man. Street crime is at peak, police is ineffective rather party to it. This system cannot be corrected from within. From within only restriction on two tenure of PMship can be removed or life time benefits for parliamentarians can be approved. Common man has no options but to keep feeding these greedy people.

 

[Jungibaaz]

I watched that video and it did not answer a single thing, it only verified my point of view. Now if you could instead quote your own studies, because TuQ's speeches are basically useless.

Dr. Tahir ul Qadri's Speech At Inqilab March Dharna - 17th August 2014 Dr. Tahir ul Qadri's Speech At Inqilab March Dharna - 17th August 2014

Okay, this was a major waste of my time.

20 mins in, not a SINGLE number, figure, fact quoted on the economic feasibility of his claims that spoke about in the beginning of the video.

Around 21 mins, he claims that no-one can dispute the figures he has. Let's see.

He claims that 5200 billion pkr debt in 11 months, as opposed to 6000 billion in so many decades. Which right from the get go, sounds like a load of horseshit.

Here's a chart that spans till the first quarter of 2014, so around April, only 3 months have passed since these figures were given. So he's claiming that somehow, the PMLN has racked up $52 billion more in 11 months.

Conclusion, he is either lying or has been lied too. One thing his for sure, his figure here is RIDICULOUS.

And then to claim that all that debt was all eaten up by corruption is another ridiculous and unproven claim.

Then he goes on to say that even investment is included in this debt. Which is silly.
I'd like to see how he plans on running Pakistan without invest, what a total farce.

Now he is talking about paying it back. Every country has a national debt. Here is the UK's:

The United Kingdom National Debt Clock 2014 Counter >> nationaldebtclock.co.uk in GBP

Anyway, he is here taking pot shots, yet if I was there I'd challenge him. His so called plans for a welfare state will make that debt sky rocket exponentially. Mark my words, he's talking about debt, it's very hypocritical.

By 27 minutes in, he is talking about the GCI ranking, and undoubtedly on all sorts of rankings, Pakistan has fallen, or the rate or progress has fallen, a simple fact of the last 5 years of war, economic turmoil, political instability and mismanagement. But so far, not a SINGLE WORD on real practical steps to counter or change.

Global Competitiveness Report - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you want me to take him seriously, he should speak or at least publish a document outlining what he wants to do to change that rank with specifics, not generic talk on those variables or the GCI overall.

37 minutes it starts again, 39 minutes he's talking about some minor reform, he's talking about making tiny cuts and generated 7 billion PKR??? Is that it?

Elimination of corruption at 39 minutes, >12 billion PKR on corruption?? Again is that it?

So much talk, HOW do you reduce corruption? How? And even if you do, what bloody difference does >19 billion PKR make?

42:30, he now quotes 1000 billion PKR saving, how did he jump and fly from 19 to 1000? Completely farce, total and utter drama.

Tax, around 43 mins. tax leakage I agree with him on this, the tax net needs to evened out and widened and the PMLN's focus on GST rather than income tax and tax on other things is unnecessarily squeezing the lower end of the income scale as opposed to the other end, or evening and widening the total tax net. But again, no specifics, usual ramblings. But as for the current account, the PMLN has done well so far: Look here, it decreased the deficit rate, despite the war going on, despite the mess the previous government left behind and despite the instability.

And then talking about natural resources, you need investment, that's right Qadri sb, investment, you say that we could benefit so and so from making use of them. But last I recall you called investment = debt.

All in all, this entire video was a complete waste of my time, I learnt nothing new, and my previous suspicions proven right, he (TuQ) does not like talking specifics, probably has no plan for his pipe dreams.



Total farce.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Dr Tahir-ul-Qadri made the following submissions and presented his set of demands in an emphatic tone.

1. The souls of 14 martyrs of Model Town ask why were we killed and for what crime?
2. If we could not get justice for 14 martyrs, how could we take ‘Qisas’ of anyone in Pakistan according to law and the Constitution?
3. Nawaz Sharif and Shahbaz Sharif should tender their resignations as a result of massacre in Model Town.
4. After their resignations, Nawaz Sharif and Shahbaz Sharif should be arrested like common people. No bail is granted in a case of killing.
5. Participants of revolution march will stay here till resignation and arrest of Sharif brothers.
6. The names of Sharif brothers should be put on ECL. If anyone helps them escape, he would not be spared.
7. National and provincial assemblies should be dissolved as they were unconstitutionally established.
8. These assemblies came into being in violation of Articles 62 and 63 and they were full of tax defaulters, thieves and robbers.
9. New National Government should be established after dissolution of the assemblies and the end of unconstitutional government.
10. Newly established National Government should conduct strict and merciless accountability of every person who has been involved in corrupt practices in this country.
11. National Government should implement 10-point agenda of people’s welfare to steer the nation out of poverty in which it has been stuck for last 66 years.
12. According to this agenda, every homeless person should get a house of five and three marla.
13. Every jobless person should be given a job or employment allowance.
14. Flour, ghee, rice, cooking oil, milk and sugar should be provided to the people with low income at half of their price.
15. Taxes and duties on bills of electricity, gas and water should be abolished for the poor.
16. The poor should be given free medical facilities under national health insurance scheme.
17. Education up to matriculate should be compulsory and free under a uniform educational system so that the people could not keep their children deprived of this basic right.
18. Official land of Pakistan should be distributed among the peasants and landless people.
19. Sectarianism, militancy and terrorism should be eradicated wholly and comprehensively.
20. Women should be given employment in the form of small industrial units. All anti-women and discriminatory laws should be done away with.
21. The difference between salary packages of the public and private sector employees of different grades should be minimized to every possible extent.
22. The foundation-stone of participatory democracy should be laid by carving out new provinces on administrative basis that should deliver rights to the people at their doorstep.
23. We want such a system through revolution as is in vogue in the developed countries of the world.
24. No corrupt officer should be spared in this country and every corrupt official should go to jail.
25. There are two discriminatory laws for the poor and super rich elite that have got billions of rupees written off while in power. This system would not work in Pakistan anymore.
26. If democracy has to stay, then all state institutions would have to be subservient to law and the state.
27. If General (r ) Pervez Musharraf can be proceeded against for suspending Constitution, why can a case not be registered against those who suspended dozens of laws dealing with fundamental human rights?
28. We want to get restoration of rights of the people. We are peaceful people and reject militancy and terrorism.
29. We want to implement in Pakistan the system of the state of Madina where the Muslims and non-Muslims had equal rights.
30. A person who does not have access to food, clothes, shelter, employment, medical facility and education, how can his vote be free and independent?
31. We reject demand for mid-term elections, which will impose the same people on the nation under the present system. We want change through revolution.
32. I will announce time-frame for revolution march some time tonight.
33. Peace training centers must be established, peace and inter-faith harmony should be added in textbook syllabus of schools.
34. Minorities be provided with complete rights, equal citizenship no matter what religion they belong to. They will be given constitutional protection.
35. Devolution: Formation of more provinces including Hazara, Gilgit-Baltistan, South Punjab, FATA. At least 23 provinces should be formed for better administration. How and why should people of smaller cities have to travel to major cities for court appearances and other governmental affairs?
36. All national institutions must be depoliticized and stabilized.

Dr Tahir-ul-Qadri presents his charter of demands before marchers - Minhaj-ul-Quran International

 

[Jungibaaz]

Under present circumstances only these faces can be seen in assembly. The system needs revamping. You being in UK do not have any idea how much is common man suppressed. What is the level of inflation and corruption in this country.

In fact, I know this better than most in Pakistan. One because it seems I know more about how countries work from watching them function like clockwork in the UK and elsewhere. All you need to do is en roll in an A level economics class to see how much TuQ is bluffing.

And about inflation, I know it, believe me, how I know is something I would not want to share on an open forum.

Once bribe was taken covertly now it is being asked openly.

That means Pakistanis are to blame, the common man is no longer clean. And you wonder why your leaders aren't clean?

It's what I've been saying all along.

You have no idea how these politician backed gangs and mafia are extorting money from common man.

I know, like I said, I know well.

Street crime is at peak, police is ineffective rather party to it.

Corruption, corruption. What;s new? You think Qadri's political turmoil and bloody revolution will save it, you will turn this country in to Syria.

This system cannot be corrected from within.

Yes, it can, just look at PTI, the underdog, in just two years of good campaigning stole an entire province.

Also, watch the UK model for democracy, we had mismanagement, we had Elitism, but we persevered, we did not care for revolutionary types and look at where they are.

Pakistanis are in another world, thinking they can live the dream without paying for it. Pay your taxes, be a credit to society, work hard, play hard and vote well. If every man could do that, we'd be the next Asian giant.

Common man has no options but to keep feeding these greedy people.

The common man is as foolish, corrupt as his rulers.
Common man fixes up, his leaders will fall in to place. That's the beauty of democracy, people power, you're exerting your will as a people even when you don't know it. In Pakistan people don't pay their taxes and then ask, why does the government not help us. In Pakistan, when there's unemployment, we cry, the state bank uses monetary tools to boost growth and employment, as a result inflation increases and then we cry about that, all while we refuse to work hard and pay taxes. I could go on for hours.

 

[Irfioo7]

He claims that 5200 billion pkr debt in 11 months, as opposed to 6000 billion in so many decades. Which right from the get go, sounds like a load of horseshit.

Here's a chart that spans till the first quarter of 2014, so around April, only 3 months have passed since these figures were given. So he's claiming that somehow, the PMLN has racked up $52 billion more in 11 months.

All your figures are mainly of state bank of Pakistan
Apart from claimed investments
currency swap agreement with China 2 bil$
World bank 12 bil$
IMF 6.8 bil$
Euro bonds 2 bIl$

Loans must be repaid; investments can be lost
and Pakistan economy in 1999 was on brink of collapse and default, Musharaf have done it before by increasing economy at 7% growth rate in war environment and saying no to IMF
Your point of civil war is quite valid but current and past government is responsible for forcing Pakistan toward civil war

 

[rohailmalhi]

Under present circumstances only these faces can be seen in assembly. The system needs revamping. You being in UK do not have any idea how much is common man suppressed. What is the level of inflation and corruption in this country. Once bribe was taken covertly now it is being asked openly. You have no idea how these politician backed gangs and mafia are extorting money from common man. Street crime is at peak, police is ineffective rather party to it. This system cannot be corrected from within. From within only restriction on two tenure of PMship can be removed or life time benefits for parliamentarians can be approved. Common man has no options but to keep feeding these greedy people.

No one can bring any change to this system unless you provide people with education & proper jobs. I had my hopes for IK but then he proved me wrong on being a good leader. He could have changed alot of things . But he proved to be selfish individual who is only intrested in getting the seat of PM nothing . If he was that of capable leader he would have focused with all his energy on KPK and would have shown the world how he can changes their lives once he is in power for whole Pakistan .

As far as the bribes are concern its now a common practice every person takes and gives bribe . These kind of evil can only be root out but punishing the culprits with severe punishments. For making these kind of laws one need to be in Parliament Not on street with 50K people.

As far Mr Qadri is concern he is nothing but a stoog . He wont even win a single seat in elections. All this support he have right now is what the miracle money can do 500-2000/per person / per day . He is worst that these politicians because he is using religion to manipulate people. He is modern form of TTP . I have seen with my own eyes how he armed mob with tear gas mask, dandas , protective vests & gear to attack Police near Jinnah Hospital.