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What is the best option for the T-LORAMIDS Program


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That tender was ongoing for years, I'm pretty sure Turkish authorities are well aware of capacity of each system, if they thought Chinese system was incapable then doesn't matter what they offer it would not be accepted, I agree its a relatively new and inexperienced system but considering the decision I think its not incapable.

I don't think price is a primary factor here, Turkish military spendings are greatly increased in past years, I think main factor in getting HQ 9 over S 300 was ToT and Russian-Turkish relations being flexible.
 
Concerns Mount Over Turk-China Defense System
“How could Turkey, protected by NATO assets, ignore the alliance’s concerns and opt for an air defense system to be built by a non-friendly country?” asked a NATO defense attaché in Ankara.

But experts, analysts and officials say integration with NATO assets is unlikely. “NATO has the technical capabilities to isolate the Turkish air defense architecture by denying Ankara the interface data necessary for any integration,” a Western defense official said.

A London-based Turkey specialist said Turkey would most likely end up having a standalone system. “[NATO] member nations will refuse any cooperation with Turkey for the integration of the Chinese system into the alliance’s assets deployed in Turkey. This will leave the eventual Turkish architecture in a senseless standalone position,” he said.

I think the two above quoted parts are good enough reason for Turkey to start on a Stand alone system.

The way the Western countries think pretty much says what kind of "partnership", "Alliance-membership" they want from Turkey.

And that has always been a way to sway and push Turkey around, but I think the timing is good, and probably ripe, move on to other systems. Not the russian weapons because they're too close to the west and they're pretty much same mentality as the west. So I think the chinese is better because of their more "openmindedness".

by move on I mean, expand our repetoire. And not only have western weapons
 
So called ''stand alone sytem'' in fact means no outside meddling or interference. :)

it will be fully under Turkish control 100% independent so that's good.
 
So called ''stand alone sytem'' in fact means no outside meddling or interference. :)

it will be fully under Turkish control 100% independent so that's good.

You are wrong in your definitions here..try to read some..
Stand alone system means..
It has own detectio Radar.Own tracking radar.
own transport
Does not need external data link to operate properly.
Does not need to be towed...
 
Turkey 's decision is an important political dimension . Turkish-Chinese relations rocket industry is not started today , and Turkey, the Western allies secret embargo imposed in two areas disturbed him . Nuclear technology and missile systems ... The first solution , with Russia 's decision to establish a joint nuclear power plant , the second solution is found in cooperation with China on missile systems . The decision to reviewers , as Western allies to lead off normal , but the effect of the embargo in Turkey do the secret lives of these two strategic areas should be assessed.
 
Exactly ... Also an added plus is the fact that FD-2000 is unkown to our most powerful nieghbour - Greeks with their S-300 AND Patriots. Given Greece's close relationship with France, SAMP/T wouldn't be much different either.

France leased two Fremm frigates to Greece. They are equipped with the same missiles as Samp/t uses. :)
There was a plan to sell 6 in 2009 but then Germany started complaining about how Greeks spend their money.
 
Turkey does not test them before buying???

I suppose Turkey is well aware of the true quality of each system before buying it since it should have already tested each system inside and out.

$30 billion is not a small number even though I do not think China's goal is making profit in this deal though.

Where's $30 billion from? Inflation? ;-)

Please be more accurate and careful when posting something.

Turkey is a US ally but choose the Chinese air defend system over the overprice patriot system was a slap in US face. China offer ToT and the system 1 billions dollar cheaper compare to the patriot of course Turkey would dis the patriot system and buy the Chinese system.

China defend industry catching up with the West, 10 more yrs China military technology will match the US military technology.

U.S. was never a real contender - the problem with Patriot's is not their price (they are well worth their price considering that they are the only true battle-tested system of the 4 offered to Turkey), but the fact that it's not a long-range, strategic air defense system. It is a tactical and operational system, not a strategic air defense, which is what Turkey wanted. I.e., Patriot's are just great on the border with Syria, or on an island in the Sea, but to achieve full coverage of Turkey's entire territory would be a nightmare using Patriot's. Still, Patriot-like systems are needed to protect strategic air defense systems such as S-300.
 
Why do you think the deliver day matters? For example, in 2005. China think they need more s-300 and they signed a deal and it deliever in 2010. Does that mean in 2010 they still need more S-300 with the entry service of the HQ-9? Seems like you do not understand basic logic. If we signed a new missile deal after 2009 entry service of HQ-9. I will say you are correct but the truth is, we have not buy any more S-300. Russia do business with China is they need us to pay the money first before they will make the product. You expect Chinese to reject the S-300 we have already paid in 2005 since it enter service in 2010?

Are you ok? Russia are known to never refund the money paid. Since we already paid why not we just take it even its still inferior to HQ-9.

Oh, man, let me explain to you how things work in real world, especially in military procurement and government contracts: they don't "just happen" overnight. Some government official doesn't just go to a bazar and decide to buy something. The processes take years, with multiple RFDs and other technical documents being prepared, edited, analyzed, vetted, re-edited, re-issued, commented, circulated among other agencies, etc., etc., etc. What does this mean? This means that Chinese, who have 5,000 years of history, didn't just decide in 2005 "Let's go and buy 15 Russian systems!" and then in 2010 "Hmm, I wish we didn't sign the contract, it was a mistake". No, Chinese, like Americans, Russians, Turks, and other Great Nations, think strategically, which means not just years ahead, but decades ahead. In U.S. there are multiple government plans and analysis from CIA and other intelligence agencies until 2050. Same thing in China - there is an enormous apparatus modeled after Soviet GosPlan - State Planning Commission (National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) People's Republic of China), whose sole job is to constantly plan ahead. This is especially true in China, where everything is done in 5-year increments, 5-year plans. Does the basic logic become more obvious to you now?

Thus, if Chinese signed a major contract in 2005, knowing that delivery would last until 2010 (i.e., 5 years), not only was that well planned in their 5-year and longer plans, but they knew they had to sign a contract in 2005 already in the year 2000, and indeed, in the 1990, when they first started buying Soviet/Russian S-300 systems, at that time S-300PT and S-300PMU.

Thus, it's not me who "doesn't understand basic logic" as you so charitably put, but it's you and all my other opponents, who don't know not only the technical parameters of the systems discussed here, but also geostrategic considerations. On top of that, you actually insult the intelligence of Chinese Politburo and State Planning Commission, thinking that they are some dummies who signed something in 2005 and regretted it in 2010.

Chinese are smart - in 2010, China received world's #1 strategic air defense systems - S-300 PMU-2. We know it's the best export quality air defense system, as your side's own sources prove that the best Chinese air-defense systems have a range of only about 125km, which is more than twice worse than Russian system. There is nothing better in existence even today, except S-400, which is only available to Russia itself and will be available to China only in 2017. Thus, Chinese government was VERY SMART that they got 15 units of world's best air defense system knowing that to get the next best thing would mean waiting another 7-10 years. So China is actually very smart, Chinese government is extremely smart - but Chinese bloggers and forum members - not so much.
 
@Dreamreaper ,i really wonder how you can talk again in a Thread related to Turkey or Turkish.
 
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Concerns Mount Over Turk-China Defense System


A Turkish procurement official admitted that Ankara does not fully know at this stage what level of integration it could achieve between the planned air defense system and the NATO and national assets the country possesses. “We will be striving to make this a national system, not a Chinese one, although we will use Chinese technology,” he said. He did not comment on whether the proposed system could be integrated into the NATO assets stationed in Turkey.



Concerns Mount Over Turk-China Defense System | Defense News | defensenews.com


As I said, The long range system to be co-developed will be called as "national".

Besides, Turkey is already developing the complete engagement control station for the short and medium altitude missile system that can be used also for the "co-development" HQ9 system, so there won't be any interfacing problem with NATO network. The country that is able to integrate own developed assets into NATO's network, will be able to do the same for Long range system as well.


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@Dreamreaper ,i really wonder how you can talk again in a Thread related to Turkey or Turkish.
It's not your forum that you talk like that with someone. If you are commenting in turkish thread does not give you right to tell others who can comment or not

Any reports of test results which might show why HQ-9 was chosen?

U.S. concerned about Turkey's choice of Chinese missile system

WASHINGTON, Sept 28 | Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:48pm EDT

(Reuters) - The United States said on Saturday it had expressed serious concerns to Turkey over its decision to co-produce a long-range air and missile defense system with a Chinese firm under U.S. sanctions.

Turkey, a member of the NATO military alliance, announced this week that it had chosen the FD-2000 missile defense system from China Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp, or CPMIEC, over rival systems from Russian, U.S. and European firms.

CPMIEC is under U.S. sanctions for violations of the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act.

"We have conveyed our serious concerns about the Turkish government's contract discussions with a U.S.-sanctioned company for a missile defense system that will not be inter-operable with NATO systems or collective defense capabilities," a State Department spokeswoman said.

"Our discussions on this issue will continue."

Some Western defense analysts have said they were surprised by Turkey's decision, having expected the contract to go to Raytheon Co, a U.S. company that builds the Patriot missile, or the Franco/Italian Eurosam SAMP/T.

The United States, Germany and the Netherlands each sent two Patriot batteries and up to 400 soldiers to operate them to southeastern Turkey early this year after Ankara asked NATO for help with air defenses against possible missile attack from Syria.
 
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Turkey’s China deal on missile system not finalized, says President Gül
ANKARA / WASHINGTON


Turkey’s choice of a Chinese firm for the construction of a long-range air and anti-missile system isn’t final, President Gül says. Earlier the US had expressed its concerns over the decision to choose a firm under US sanctions

Turkey’s deal with China over the construction of a long-range air and anti-missile system is not the final decision, President Abdullah Gül said yesterday.

That purchase is not definite. There is a shortlist, and China is at the top of it. We should look at the conditions, but there is no doubt that Turkey is primarily in NATO. These are multi-dimensional issues, there are technical and economic dimensions and on the other hand there is an alliance dimension. These are being evaluated. Turkey needs a defense system,” Gül said while onboard a plane that was en route to Turkey.

Earlier, the United States said on Sept. 28 that it had expressed serious concerns to Turkey over its decision to co-produce a long-range air and missile defense system with a Chinese firm under U.S. sanctions, Reuters reported yesterday.

Turkey, a member of the NATO military alliance, announced on Sept. 26 that that it had chosen the FD-2000 missile defense system from China Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp, or CPMIEC, over rival systems from Russian, U.S. and European firms.

CPMIEC is under U.S. sanctions for violations of the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act.

“We have conveyed our serious concerns about the Turkish government’s contract discussions with a U.S.-sanctioned company for a missile defense system that will not be inter-operable with NATO systems or collective defense capabilities,” a State Department spokeswoman said on Sept. 28.

“Our discussions on this issue will continue.,” she said.

Some Western defense analysts have said they were surprised by Turkey’s decision, having expected the contract to go to Raytheon Co, a U.S. company that builds the Patriot missile, or the Franco/Italian Eurosam SAMP/T.

Deal worth $4 billion

The initial estimated contract price was $4 billion, but the Chinese offer stood at anywhere between $3 billion to $3.5 billion, although officials did not confirm any figure.

Turkey presently has no long-range air-defense systems. The $4 billion program, dubbed the T-LORAMIDS, is being designed to counter both enemy aircraft and missiles.

About half of Turkey’s network-based air defense radars have been paid for by NATO, and are part of the NATO Air Defense Ground Environment. “Turkey can always decide to build a standalone system. But in that case, abstracting the air defense system from NATO assets would mean that Turkey will lose half of its radar capabilities,” one defense analyst said earlier.

Turkey would need interface data to make its own air defense architecture interoperable with NATO assets, primarily data on the Identify Friend and Foe system. This is top secret and cannot be installed into any Chinese system.
September/30/2013
 
No matter what, I really hope the decision-makers and politicians won't back down from this deal. It's already long overdue that the Turkish defense became independent from other countries (in the sense that others should stop pushing Turkey around and forcing her to buy mostly western weapons by making use of the 'NATO compatibility' excuse card.
I wonder though, which other system remains on that shortlist?
 

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