T-80UD better than Al Khalid?

[notorious_eagle]

Do you have any source for the bold part.

I dont think there is any proper source for this info like an article in a newspaper like any project for PA but i will back that statement. I have also heard this from several sources whom are placed at high positions in PA that AK has gone through many transformations and the performance has improved.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Do you have any source for the bold part.

Its a very logical thing that when you manufacture a weapon system, after sometime the upgraded & improved versions have to come. Just to prove that, below is the pic of a AK with a Shotra APS which was not heard or seen in the earlier versions, but when reports started to come that AK has been improved & has now some improvements, this pic confirmed that some modifications have been done. Plus some very reliable defence analysts who have limited access to HIT or senior level officers have also confirmed this is their writings. Pakistans & Chinese tank designing & manufacturing is very much related & as we have seen the latest versions of Type-99, we will see something new in AK too. PA has to keep itself updated & the recent procurement of Russian T-90s is gonna make PA go for something to counter it, which would be a highly updated version of AK.


http://img36.imageshack.us/i/alkhalidnew.jpg/ http://g.imageshack.us/img36/alkhalidnew.jpg/1/

 

[sudhir007]

Atleast they produce something and inducted for their army and there army accept this. Not like our army who's every time tamper indigenous product and make excuse for purchasing export item.

 

[hj786]

Atleast they produce something and inducted for their army and there army accept this. Not like our army who's every time tamper indigenous product and make excuse for purchasing export item.

They accepted it because it is a quality product that does its job properly, not simply because it is "indigenous".

 

[wangrong]

 

[Renegade]

Sir, as for his remarks about Zia era, he was corrected by someone because he had done wrong assessment, but in the case of the tanks his assessment as of 90s is correct, at that time AK would be inferior to T-80UD, he did no wrong assessment. He may have printed the 3rd edition to correct his mistakes of the first ones but he did no wrong assessment of the tanks at that time so he needs no correction as his 3rd edition may be in 2006 but the facts he is mentioning are regarding of the 90s, so he has no change to add it to. Yes if he has written this in 2006 & comparing them in 2006, plz do show me that part then as in the above of the paragraphs that you have posted he mentions 90s not the late 2000s.

If you read the book you yourself will be surprised at the amount of access the author enjoys in terms of internal PA information, the very fact that this guy was taken to Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT) clearly show the level of confidance enjoyed by him in the PA.

You just seem to be hell bent in saying that his information is from the 1990's and thus outdated in the current context, inspight of me having brought specific instances to your notice about the author updating his information periodically in the subsiquent editions.

If the Al Khlaid was seriously better than the T-80UD why didnt he update the information, as he did it in Gen.Zia's case!!?? Some food for thought.

I would strongly suggest that you read the book yourself, to understand it properly.

Plus, it would be suggested to look for the specifications of AK & T-80UD urself & see which is better as sometimes self finding is good for one's own knowledge. Just to give a brief overview, AK has hunter-killer capability, lacking in T-80UD. AK engine is 1200hp while T-80UD is 1000hp. AK has IBMS with data-link facility which lacks in T-80UD. AK can be incorporated with additional armor blocks to increase its protection which T-80UD lacks as haven't read anywhere of such capability. AK has laser warning system & countering techniques which is not there in T-80UD as per original specification.

Many features of both the tanks are nearly equal too, so it would be advised to judge the tanks at their current specifications not the old ones.

Can you provide me with a neuteral link about the Al Khalid's capabilities and the T-80UD's too.

In the absence of any credilbe source of information about both the tanks, i am forced to take Brian Cloughley views that the T-80UD is the best tank in the PA. As he seems to be considerably better placed than any of us to form an factual opinion about the matter. Unless something more credible comes out.

 

[Renegade]

the following statements DESTROY the credibility of the author

In the early 1990s, i was taken around the factory at Taxila(not then named HIt; it was the Heavy Rebuild Programme) and shown the shop floores (where Chinese personnel kept peeping aroud pillars)

What kind of logic is that?? The book contains inputs from many PA officers both retired and serving. If you question the credibility of the book you end up questioning their credibility in turn.

 

[Developereo]

The author had lunch with some PA officers in the HIT cafeteria.
Then he wrote a book about it.
It does not make him an expert, and it doesn't mean he was given all the facts.

The Ukrainian tank is available for export and its specs are in the public domain.
The AK2 is an indigenous tank for domestic use and its specs need not be fully disclosed.

Do you think the PA would tell a visiting foreigner all their secrets?

 

[TaimiKhan]

If you read the book you yourself will be surprised at the amount of access the author enjoys in terms of internal PA information, the very fact that this guy was taken to Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT) clearly show the level of confidance enjoyed by him in the PA.

You just seem to be hell bent in saying that his information is from the 1990's and thus outdated in the current context, inspight of me having brought specific instances to your notice about the author updating his information periodically in the subsiquent editions.

If the Al Khlaid was seriously better than the T-80UD why didnt he update the information, as he did it in Gen.Zia's case!!?? Some food for thought.

I would strongly suggest that you read the book yourself, to understand it properly.





Can you provide me with a neuteral link about the Al Khalid's capabilities and the T-80UD's too.

In the absence of any credilbe source of information about both the tanks, i am forced to take Brian Cloughley views that the T-80UD is the best tank in the PA. As he seems to be considerably better placed than any of us to form an factual opinion about the matter. Unless something more credible comes out.

Fine, T-80UD is better then AK, AK is sh*t. PA is inducting a sh*ty tank in numbers more then T-80UDs, forgetting that they have no problems in getting more superior then AK T-80UDs or T-84s from Ukraine who would be more then willing to sell such tanks to PA.

A very sane logic that PA inducts an inferior tank, when they can easily get the superior T-80s or T-84s or Oplots with Bustle type auto loaders & much more.

Nice

 

[paritosh]

Al-khalid is a very good tank...
I haven't heard much about the AK2...I guess you will beat the chinese onto it...it's gonna be at least as good as their type-99 right?
can any one give any specifications of the AK2?

 

[Renegade]

Fine, T-80UD is better then AK, AK is sh*t. PA is inducting a sh*ty tank in numbers more then T-80UDs, forgetting that they have no problems in getting more superior then AK T-80UDs or T-84s from Ukraine who would be more then willing to sell such tanks to PA. A very sane logic that PA inducts an inferior tank, when they can easily get the superior T-80s or T-84s or Oplots with Bustle type auto loaders & much more. Nice

Dont get carried over. I never said that Al Khalid is ****, read the first post carefully the author himself says that the Khalid is "an effective fighting vehicle".As for your logic as to why the PA went for inferior tank when the T-80UD was available? The answer is simple - money. It is very well know that the Pakistan Military is short on funding and thus are unable to purchase the equipment that they will like to. An clear example for this is the JF-17 programme, the PAF is going for this bird in large numbers primarily for reasons of economy. Its an open secret that they would have preferred the F-16 had they been able to afford it.

 

[Renegade]

The author had lunch with some PA officers in the HIT cafeteria.
Then he wrote a book about it.
It does not make him an expert, and it doesn't mean he was given all the facts.

The Ukrainian tank is available for export and its specs are in the public domain.
The AK2 is an indigenous tank for domestic use and its specs need not be fully disclosed.

Do you think the PA would tell a visiting foreigner all their secrets?

I would suggest that you read the book to grasp it in a proper manner. From what i understan from my reading of the book is that the author enoyed very high levels of priviliged information from PA officers.

His visit to HIT was more than a lunch date, as evidant from his statements he was told about the development plans of various projects in detail at HIT. Now the PA just doesnot allow anybody for that matter into its sensitive installations.

He has quoted many instances of one on one chats with the PA's top ecelons - he met Gen.Jehangir Karamat when he was appointed the COAS and Gen.Karamat outlined in detail his plans for the PA during his tenure. I can quote many more such instances from the book. If he could meet the COAS at ease and chatting with him about the future plans of the PA, then he certainly enjoyed very high levels of access to information. None of the instances which he quotes in his books have been contardicted by the PA officers in question, on the contarary they have been substantiated by them.

 

[Developereo]

An clear example for this is the JF-17 programme, the PAF is going for this bird in large numbers primarily for reasons of economy. Its an open secret that they would have preferred the F-16 had they been able to afford it.

Development of indigenous capability, insurance against US sanctions, custom features not available in F-16, etc. etc.

His visit to HIT was more than a lunch date

The lunch date was a tongue-in-cheek joke. The point was that the PA will not disclose all their cards to some guy so he can put it in a book.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Dont get carried over. I never said that Al Khalid is ****, read the first post carefully the author himself says that the Khalid is "an effective fighting vehicle".As for your logic as to why the PA went for inferior tank when the T-80UD was available? The answer is simple - money. It is very well know that the Pakistan Military is short on funding and thus are unable to purchase the equipment that they will like to. An clear example for this is the JF-17 programme, the PAF is going for this bird in large numbers primarily for reasons of economy. Its an open secret that they would have preferred the F-16 had they been able to afford it.

Sometimes ordering a military equipment from abroad is more economical then getting an indigenous one. And the world knows Russian origin or CAS origin weapon systems are not expensive. If PA had gone for a huge order, it would have been economical or they may have gotten then ToT too.

Plus once a book is written, it doesn't means the author has to keep printing edition after edition to keep it updating. You mentioned the Zia thing & the author corrected it because he was wrong in the first one. But in the case of AK, i repeat once again, he was right when writing the book that its inferior. So no need to make any correction in later editions as his fact was right at that time. Plus he has now no information to the current AK as he is no more in Pakistan nor access to HIT or senior level people.

I requested you to provide me where is he mentioning that NOW in 2006 the AK is inferior to T-80UD.

As for his visit, i don't have any issue with that as Defense Attache's do go to the manufacturing units of their posting country or are taken on goodwill visit to enhance bilateral ties.

But he is talking about the 90s design of AK, not that one in current service.

 

[Renegade]

Development of indigenous capability, insurance against US sanctions, custom features not available in F-16, etc. etc.

If the PAF where really that concerned about US sanctions, they why did they go in for the purchase of additional F-16's?? Did the US congress guarantee that they will be no sanctions imposed on them!!!?Do tell me what custom features not available on the F-16 are availble with the JF-17?????

The lunch date was a tongue-in-cheek joke.* The point was that the PA will not disclose all their cards to some guy so he can put it in a book.

From the amount of access this guy enoyed i would only be surprised if he did know the PA as well they knew themselves, if not better. It takes a lot of knowledge to write a book especially about the history of an army especially with inside information. I dont see anyone from the PA trying to contradict him based on what he has published in the book. If the PA themselves thought that he was wrong about the Al Khalid remark, they would have pointed it out to him. Which certainly has not happened.And the from the looks of it the PA wanted to impress the Austarlian Defence Attache otherwise they would not have given him such privliged access to themselves.