T-129 Atak & Turkish Attack Helicopter Programs

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Yes, Pak-US is talking and cutting deals as we speak, that's key point! That's exactly why I said the Z-10ME story is pure hot air (perhaps from PA side as a pressure tactic on US) and AH-1Z may eventually get delivered. Let's not forget those AH-1Z are already made and sitting in Arizona, US also suffers loss if no new deal is made.

The situation also applies to T129, Pak can simply wait it out until either US folds or TAI is ready to deliver. US should know time is not on their side (Pak can use old AH-1 for the time being), cos when TAI is ready to fit a new engine either domestic or Ukrainian even Russian to T129, US will loose all bargaining chip, they should be smart enough to cut a deal with Pak-Turkey while they still can.

Time doesn't seem to be in Pakistan Army Aviation's side. It can't simply go on kicking the can down the road refurbishing the same old stuff again and again while fighting multiple insurgencies at the same time on its frontiers.

The Army is taking regular losses every other day while fighting due to lack of support.

The US on it's a part, doesn't really care. All they're asking Pakistan post Afghan Withdrawal is whether you're with us or with China? No matter how much Pakistan insists it does not want to be on either or other side, the Americans don't want to hear it. They want access to Xinjiang from Pakistan.

 

[Shotgunner51]

The US on it's a part, doesn't really care. All they're asking Pakistan post Afghan Withdrawal is whether you're with us or with China? No matter how much Pakistan insists it does not want to be on either or other side, the Americans don't want to hear it. They want access to Xinjiang from Pakistan.

The negotiation isn't done in the open, so we won't know any exact details, we only know both sides will negotiate on behalf of their respective national interests (and public opinion/consensus) not others. In my own opinion, Pak should build engine or helo joint-venture together with Turkey.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

The negotiation isn't done in the open, so we won't know any exact details, we only know both sides will negotiate on behalf of their respective national interests (and public opinion) not others. In my own opinion, Pak should build engine or helo joint-venture together with Turkey.

If Pakistan could, if would do joint ventures left, right and centre but it does not have the economic clout to support it. Pakistan can only afford a small number of and low profile projects at any one time. JF-17 Thunder being an exception.

 

[luciferdd]

Yes, Pak-US is talking and cutting deals as we speak, that's key point! That's exactly why I said the Z-10ME story is pure hot air (perhaps from PA side as a pressure tactic on US) and AH-1Z may eventually get delivered. Let's not forget those AH-1Z are already made and sitting in Arizona, US also suffers loss if no new deal is made.

The situation also applies to T129, Pak can simply wait it out until either US folds or TAI is ready to deliver. US should know time is not on their side (Pak can use old AH-1 for the time being), cos when TAI is ready to fit a new engine either domestic or Ukrainian even Russian to T129, US will loose all bargaining chip, they should be smart enough to cut a deal with Pak-Turkey while they still can.

PA ordered both AH-1Z and T-129 before and they wants Z-10ME to take place of T-129 not AH-1Z.AH-1Z is a heavy attack helicopter,but Z-10ME&T-129 are mediun attack helicopter they can't take place of AH-1Z.

 

[Shotgunner51]

PA ordered both AH-1Z and T-129 before and they wants Z-10ME to take place of T-129 not AH-1Z.AH-1Z is a heavy attack helicopter,but Z-10ME&T-129 are mediun attack helicopter they can't take place of AH-1Z.

True. Even if this Z-10ME drama is real, being a medium attack MTOW of Z-10ME is 7 tons, doesn't serve the same purpose as AH-1Z which is 8.4 tons as needed by PA. Though both can carry 16 AGMs/AAMs, the latter can be heavily armored.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

This is a good thread to post this very apt article in the Express Tribune newspaper by Lt Gen Talat Masood. While not addressing this issue directly, he bemoans the lack of technical and engineering knowhow in the Muslim world. What is essential is for countries like Turkey and Pakistan to invest heavily in engine development (perhaps in concert with China and Russia) if they expect to have options without the sanctions trip-wires.

Chinese are certainly struggling with it and this is instructive that jet/turbine engines are one of the most difficult feat of engineering thus far. Yet, it has to be mastered if countries like Turkey and Pakistan expect to survive (and hopefully thrive if they are able to break the Western monopoly). I know this is an extremely difficult task but the more examples we see of this nature, the starker the need to meddle more in this space.

Looking at the Chinese experience, I think reaching a 'minimum viable product' (MVP) state with engines and other critical technologies is doable.

You need enough investment over a consistent, long-term period to achieve it. It's not easy, but it isn't impossible either. So, if the Muslim countries start investing today, they can get turbofan and turboshaft engines that work well enough in several decades. Possibly sooner.

The challenge is getting the same quality and standards of cutting-edge Western equipment. However, getting to that level isn't our problem right now; rather, our problem is the inability to form a respectable standing unit via solely indigenous means. That's a critical weakness that ultimately kneecaps us from pursuing our strategic interests.

 

[blain2]

True. Even if this Z-10ME drama is real, being a medium attack MTOW of Z-10ME is 7 tons, doesn't serve the same purpose as AH-1Z which is 8.4 tons as needed by PA.

Pakistan may not have much a choice at this point. Cobras are aging and we need replacement attack helicopters to support our strike formations (some members are talking about the need for these in the context of CI roles, that is secondary. The primary role was always for supporting our strike formations.) I would not think of Z-10MEs as a ploy to bait others by Pakistan. It is a genuine need given lack of traction on T-129s and AH-1Z.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Pakistan may not have much a choice at this point. Cobras are aging and we need replacement attack helicopters to support our strike formations (some members are talking about the need for these in the context of CI roles, that is secondary. The primary role was always for supporting our strike formations.) I would not think of Z-10MEs as a ploy to bait others by Pakistan. It is a genuine need given lack of traction on T-129s and AH-1Z.

There's an opportunity here.

The PAA had segmented its new attack helicopter requirements into two areas: (1) a medium-weight workhorse for all ops requirements and (2) a heavyweight.

The T129 was supposed to be the mainstay (hot temp, high altitude, long-endurance), while the AH-1Z was the heavyweight.

Since the Z-10ME is likely the workhorse solution, I think the heavyweight question is still open. It could be a good idea to collaborate with Turkey on the T929 for that route, especially as Turkey will use Ukrainian engines (I believe the same type as the Mi-17s) for that platform. However, the Turkish route gets even more interesting after the T929 because the Turks may use the same core inputs (engine, transmission, rotors, etc) for a new transport helicopter which would be similar in size and capability to the Mi-17s.

 

[Shotgunner51]

The primary role was always for supporting our strike formations

You mean escorting an air assault formation? That's the usual role Z-10 plays in PLA, on top of say hunting HVT, recon-ambush, kinda "flying cavalry" type of missions, but definitely not against enemy armored formation especially those with strong AD.

Yes I'm aware of (beginning to) current status of Cobra fleet, indeed urgent replacement is needed like you've said. I am only not convinced that Pak-US negotiation has ended. There's a strong will on Pak side to stay close to US or western sphere of influence (at least not get pushed too far), US also know they will suffer loss if no deal is made. That's why I think the Z-10ME story (even the J-10C) is pure smoke & mirror, but of course that's all my personal opinion.

 

[Zulfiqar]

You mean escorting an air assault formation? That's the usual role Z-10 plays in PLA, on top of say hunting HVT, recon-ambush, kinda "flying cavalry" type of missions, but definitely not against enemy armored formation especially those with strong AD.

Yes I'm aware of (beginning to) current status of Cobra fleet, indeed urgent replacement is needed like you've said. I am only not convinced that Pak-US negotiation has ended. There's a strong will on Pak side to stay close to US or western sphere of influence (at least not get pushed too far), US also know they will suffer loss if no deal is made. That's why I think the Z-10ME story (even the J-10C) is pure smoke & mirror, but of course that's all my personal opinion.

Back around 2018 I spoke to an officer from PA Aviation.

He said that initially the Z-10s were almost forced upon us for trial (as the Chinese knew about our requirement for replacement of gunship choppers).

They were not really fond of it back then. This has changed now with ME and considering PA's urgent requirement.

The situation will clear up in few months (even DG ISPR gave a hint in yesterday's conference).

 

[dBSPL]

T-929 Atak-2 heavy attack helicopter displayed at the opening ceremony of TAI Facilities. 10-ton class utility helicopter is seen in the background.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1479182848988962822

+10tons MTOW class and heavily armored Atak-2 will also be a very important step for the Turkish Naval Forces. Naval version of this helicopter is expected to be used in LHD ships.

 

[Ali_Baba]

You mean escorting an air assault formation? That's the usual role Z-10 plays in PLA, on top of say hunting HVT, recon-ambush, kinda "flying cavalry" type of missions, but definitely not against enemy armored formation especially those with strong AD.

Yes I'm aware of (beginning to) current status of Cobra fleet, indeed urgent replacement is needed like you've said. I am only not convinced that Pak-US negotiation has ended. There's a strong will on Pak side to stay close to US or western sphere of influence (at least not get pushed too far), US also know they will suffer loss if no deal is made. That's why I think the Z-10ME story (even the J-10C) is pure smoke & mirror, but of course that's all my personal opinion.

I disagree - there is no way PAA will now get the AH-1Zs given that it has been forced by the Americans to give up the T-129 procurement programme due to American sanctions. The optics on the relationship with Turkieye will be too bad for PAA to think of doing that, the PAA understands that. China has gotten its pound of flesh with the Z-10ME, I am fairly sure the PAA will wait for the T-929 to replace the role that the AH-1Zs were meant to occupy.

The AH-1Zs are toast - people should forget about them, imho ..

I disagree with the logic of "having to stay close" via military procurements - think that ship has well and truly sailed. Any talks on the relationship with the Americans, imho, been scoped to the purely economic front. Security is off the table, as is the leverage it gives the Americans. There is less scope for the Americans to engage with Pakistan, and what space that is "left" is economic. So the Americans either decide to increase their economic relationship to "stay close" with Pakistan, or it has "no sphere of influence" left with Pakistan ....

 

[mjting01]

Pakistan's army denies reports of cancelation of helicopter deal with Turkey | Local News

Speculations over T-129 ATAK helicopters deal baseless, says army's media wing

www.yenisafak.com

T-129 ATAK: Το Πακιστάν διαψεύδει την ακύρωση της συμφωνίας με την Τουρκία | OnAlert

Το Πακιστάν διέψευσε σήμερα, Παρασκευή, δημοσιεύματα ότι η χώρα ακύρωσε συμφωνία για την αγορά επιθετικών ελικοπτέρων T-129 ATAK από την Τουρκία.

www.onalert.gr

Sources say that Lt. Gen. Babar Iftikhar's statements during an interview were misinterpreted, and he confirmed that "the agreement with Turkey on T-129 ATAK helicopters is proceeding normally."

 

[aziqbal]

ok so what is the timeline for the indigenous Turkish engine?

when is it expected to be fitted to the T129 and is it as powerful as the foreign one

because otherwise it will defeat the purpose if the indigenous is not as powerful as its Western counter part

and is T929 the ATAK II or T629?

 

[SQ8]

The sourcing of T-129 is likely dead.
The sourcing of a helicopter from Turkey in the future is not. The ball really is in Turkey’s court but the clock is ticking for Pakistan so the Z-10ME may be the interim option.