Syrian Strikes Would Battle-Test Chinese Radars

[That Guy]

Neither are ours. Plus, we have the actual, not virtual, combat experience to back them up. If a shooting fight happens, it will be a repeat of Desert Storm.

Yeah, I was talking about Chinese weapons, not US weapons.

 

[Akasa]

Neither are ours. Plus, we have the actual, not virtual, combat experience to back them up. If a shooting fight happens, it will be a repeat of Desert Storm.

A repeat of Desert Storm? Is that why Obama is cutting back on strikes to "limited" quantities? Is that also why Israel thought it was necessary to pre emptively strike the S-300 and Onyx missiles?

Chinese weaponry had that chance -- Desert Storm. Was very...aaaahhhh...'effective'.

The PLA generals and admirals also have a chance to show off their warfighting acumen by predicting that even though the US and allies would win, the casualties for the alliance would be in the tens of thousands, several ships lost because of the Silkworm, and several squadrons' worth of fighters lost due to Soviet/Chinese supplied air defenses.

Everything came true...

Any weapon is only as good as the person who operates them. The US forces learned that lesson in Vietnam.

 

[Enemy]

A repeat of Desert Storm? Is that why Obama is cutting back on strikes to "limited" quantities? Is that also why Israel thought it was necessary to pre emptively strike the S-300 and Onyx missiles?

Gambit is correct. That is a contingency plan.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A sixth U.S. warship is now operating in the eastern Mediterranean, near five U.S. destroyers armed with cruise missiles that could soon be directed against Syria as part of a "limited, precise" strike, defense officials said late on Friday.

They stressed that the USS San Antonio, an amphibious ship with several hundred U.S. Marines on board, was in the region for a different reason and there were no plans to put Marines on the ground as part of any military action against Syria.

One of the officials said the San Antonio's passage into the Mediterranean was long-planned, but officials thought it prudent to keep the ship in the eastern Mediterranean near the destroyers given the current situation.

"It's been kept there as a precaution," said one of the officials, who was not authorized to speak publicly.

The San Antonio transited through the Suez Canal on Thursday from the Red Sea, and received new orders on Friday to remain in the eastern Mediterranean, near the destroyers, according to defense officials. It is one of three ships that are carrying 2,200 Marines who have been on a six-month deployment in the region around the Arabian peninsula.

 

[sicsheep]

Neither are ours. Plus, we have the actual, not virtual, combat experience to back them up. If a shooting fight happens, it will be a repeat of Desert Storm.

If our weapons are so ineffective, then you won't mind we sell them some more right?

 

[gambit]

except 20 years ago you guys had an industry, we had nothing. We advanced way more in the same 20s. Even you would dispute this would you.

Besides, what kind of Chinese weapons were even available in those days, from what I remember, almost nothing that wasn't phased out by other countries.

Rumors had it that the PLA generals and admirals swiftly withdrew their opinions about Desert Storm to the Politburo
before the Iraqi Army was completely ejected from Kuwait. The Soviets were not so quick...

Foreign Military Studies Office Publications - DESERT STORM: The Soviet View

DESERT STORM: The Soviet View

Desert Storm: The Soviet View (19 January-4 February)

Much of the interest is professional and seeks insights into the nature of future wars, adversaries, and technology. But there are political motives involved as well. Because it will either substantiate or invalidate key aspects of Soviet military doctrine and strategy, the war will either support or undermine the legitimacy and role of the Armed Forces in Soviet society.

The PLA was also keenly interested since just about everything about the PLA came from the Soviets, from equipment to organization to doctrines. Probably the only difference was that the PLA was still focused on the concept of "The People's War", which is essentially guerrilla warfare when an enemy was already in-country. The PLA had to know that if the time has come -- at that time -- for China had to abandon that concept.

Even though Iraq would lose, if the Iraqis managed to inflict serious casualties to the Allies, Soviet weaponry and doctrines would be vindicated from Western technical analyses and criticism and therefore what China learned and bought from the Soviets would be compelling enough for China to abandon the essentially defeatist concept of "The People's War".

Major General Zhivits of the USSR Armed Forces General Staff Center for Operations and Strategic Studies...In a 19 January interview in Izvestiya...observed that the American command had carried out a series of organizational and technical measures and special exercises at ranges in Britain, France, and Germany two months prior to the allied attack on Iraq, with the objective of testing and evaluating the effectiveness of the U.S. Air Force in neutralizing Iraq's air defense system. On the basis of these evaluations, modifications were made to weapons systems, especially those designated for use against SAM complexes. Adjustments and reprogramming were carried out on all air and missile systems involved in the first strike, taking into account the latest data from radio and electronic intelligence in the region.

What Zhivits did not say was that the pre-war 'special exercises' were not true exercises in the sense of maintaining readiness and inspection of units to ensure standards are met. But that those 'special exercises' were about technical verification of modifications to meet unexpected and unplanned combat opponents and conditions. The ability of the Americans and allies to do this practically blew the Soviet generals' minds. Despite the fact that the Soviet military leadership knew the Americans' penchant to make everything as multi-tasking capable and as flexible to changes as possible, it was the extent of the equipment's ability to do this made them realize that they continued to underestimate the Americans all the way up to when the first missile fired in the war.

He noted that Iraqi combat potential remained high and that the war could drag on, and remarked that several allied aircraft had already been shot down, including an "invisible" F-117. This remark was carried by Moscow Radio the same day.

This came from purely his own faith in Soviet equipment and doctrines as imparted to the Iraqis and had nothing relating to the technical aspects on how to detect the F-117, let alone shooting it down. Prior to Desert Storm, the F-117 did not have a positive image, at home and abroad, regarding its largely media fueled claimed ability to be 'invisible' to radar, never mind that the US military, from the start of the 'stealth' program, discouraged the use of the word 'invisible' since it was technically incorrect.

Note to F-35 skeptics: The F-35's public image today is exactly as the F-117's yesterday. Guess we will just have to splash a few J-20s to make the critics STFU.

In a 21 January interview with Izvestiya, Lieutenant General Gorbachev, Faculty Chief at the General Staff Academy (equivalent to the U.S. War College),...

...observed that it took the Iraqis 90 minutes to recover from the initial shock of the attack.

The 90 minutes came from the inherent weakness of a centralized top-down command and control structure advocated by the Soviets and adopted by just about every Soviet trained and equipped military in the world, including the PLA. The 'shock and awe', and resultant paralysis for 90 minutes, occurred at all levels throughout this structure because each level demanded information from the lower levels before it could issue orders and/or execute its own mission and to provide intelligence to higher headquarters, who then would issue response instructions in a trickle down manner.

Gorbachev then evaluated allied strengths and weaknesses. The main strength was the ability to create a powerful grouping of forces in a short period of time. Additional1y, "the powerful and accurate strikes carried out, plus highly efficient intelligence all indicated a high degree of professionalism" among allied forces,

This 'high degree of professionalism' opinion did not sit well with both the Soviet and PLA genital...I mean...general staffs.

It is well known throughout the world that the US military non-commissioned officers (NCO) corps is the best educated, trained, and autonomous in the execution of their daily duties. From the infantry platoon sergeant to the aircraft crewchief to the sub chief-of-the-boat (COB), they are the best in the world. Without this backbone of any army in any era in history, the swift defeat of the Iraqi Army would not be possible. They put the NCO corps of the Soviets and the PLA to professional and technical shame.

The officers that lead these NCOs are devoid of political indoctrination common in both Soviet and Chinese militaries, leaving them with responsibilities are broader in scope and professional knowledge, especially technical ones, are deeper in details. This has been confirmed over and over by Soviet defectors, among the more famous are Viktor Belenko who flew the MIG-25 to Japan, and Vladimir Bogdanovich Rezun, aka Viktor Suvurov, of the GRU, the Soviet military intelligence unit.

Regarding this discussion, the PLA can at best come half way close under the current reform driven by the shame from Desert Storm.

On 22 January 1991, INTERFAX, the independent and nonofficial Soviet news agency, carried an interview with an unidentified Soviet General Staff officer who asserted that 90 percent of allied air strikes missed their targets.6 The general noted that the allied bombing of Iraq and occupied Kuwait "hit no target" and that "a large number of airports and aircraft are undamaged, despite claims to the contrary." According to the source, "Iraqi air bases are well camouflaged and extremely hard to locate." After losing five planes in one day last week, the general said that allied air forces had been force to change their tactics. "Saying bad weather was the reason the planes were grounded was only a pretext. In fact they were planning a change of tactics."

The Soviet version of Baghdad Bob. And sounds a lot like the Chinese members here.

Desert Storm: The Soviet View (6-19 February 1991)

Week Four: "...Soviet Military equipment. of which Iraq has an abundance. has not shown itself at its best."

On 6 February in KZ, Colonel V. Demidenko, a Soviet Air Force pilot, attempted to dispel charges that Soviet military equipment had failed in Iraq:

"Even an average MiG-29 pilot has a better chance of emerging victorious in a dogfight than his adversary in an F-15, not to mention other aircraft."

You read the highlighted correctly, folks.

According to the Soviets, which we could safely impute to be with the Chinese as well, an average MIG-29 pilot would probably best any F-15 adversary, and other fighters as well. Kinda like how the Chinese members here, of which not one ever served in uniform except that of a fast food joint, talks about the PLA.

Major General N. Kostin...praised American electronic warfare capability, remarking that it had been used quite skillfully against Iraq, and went on to say that, since 1970, the U.S. had tripled the combat potential of its motorized and mechanized infantry divisions through electronics systems alone.

The US SIGINT and EW capabilities have not rested since then. If anything, we made even greater progress. We created 'stealth', fielded it, and know how to defeat it. All the while the rest of the world, including Russia and China, are still struggling with it.

Like it or not, the J-20 and the PAK-FA are dead before they are even fielded.

The debate over the performance of Soviet weaponry in the Gulf War has been intense and has already resulted in a sweeping review of the Soviet air defense system in the wake of the Iraqi defeat. The Soviet Minister of Defense is reported to have admitted that Soviet air defenses have "weak spots" and that the MoD is "analyzing the use of the armed forces of the United States and other countries during the war." Yazov observed that Iraqi pilots flying Soviet MiG-29s "failed in most cases" in dogfights with allied aircraft.

We can also safely assume this to be representative of Chinese view as well for the PLA: 不足道的 (pathetic).

Now queue the Korean War...

Desert Storm: The Soviet View (20 February-4 March)

The performance of Soviet military equipment in the Persian Gulf continues to be a major theme. Perhaps in an effort to restore the confidence of the people in Soviet military technology, a military affairs commentator on Radio Moscow announced that the Soviet Union was preparing to provide the People's Republic of China with a number of MiG-29 advanced fighters.

Since then the Germans have conducted exercises to test the capabilities of the MiG-29...a defeated U.S. pilot said: first, the MiGs vertical speed is much higher; second, the radar on the MiGs is able to detect enemy planes earlier.

That 'defeated U.S. pilot' does not give a sh1t about what other thinks of his Air Force and its aircrafts. To secure oil, we lowered our standards for the spoiled brat princes of Saudi Arabia and let them 'win' mock air combats, then praised their 'airmanship' effusively for the media to eat it all up. The MIG-29 pilots thinks they have the better fighter? Let them talk smack. We have the actual combat records on our side.

Conclusion: "the Soviet Armed Forces will have to take a closer look at the quality of their weapons, their equipment. and their strategy."

Soviet officers are discussing the outcome of the Gulf War and attempting to derive relevant lessons. Opinions vary: some laud the efficiency of allied air and ground operations, while others refuse to accept Western reports at face value.

Colonel Aleksandr Tsalko, who headed a Soviet Air Force Training Center prior to assuming his duties as a Soviet People's Deputy, observed that the crushing defeat of the Iraqi Army made it clear the Soviet military doctrine and the entire model of military development were obsolete.

Despite the high overdrive the Soviets did for PR face saving, the rest of the world did came to look at Soviet military hardware and doctrines with as high a skepticism as the PR effort. The PLA wisely remained silent on the sidelines and let the Soviets played ball, fumbling all the way.

Colonel Aleksandr Tsalko...He stressed, however, that the main lesson of the war was that huge amounts of tanks, armored vehicles, and artillery pieces were "absolutely useless."

There goes those huge quantities of DF-21Ds for those fantasy saturation attacks against an American aircraft carrier.

In an interview with INTERFAX, Marshal of the Soviet Union Viktor Kulikov, former Commander-in-Chief of Warsaw Pact Forces...observed that while the Iraqis had been trained by Soviet military advisors, "one does not always succeed in injecting one's knowledge into someone else's head."

And here is the sad reality for the Chinese members here.

Put aside hardware for now. Soviet doctrines that the PLA adopted and practiced by the Iraqis proved to be an utter failure in a real war, like communism so proven in the real world with competing ideologies practiced by other countries. The PLA generals and admirals swiftly withdrew their reports/opinions about Desert Storm and they did so with a lot of egg foo yung on their faces in front of the Politburo. Fortunately, we have the Soviet view to guide us on how the Chinese must have felt during that war.

If, as Marshal Kulikov stated that success in instructions and training are not guaranteed, what are we to make of the PLA regarding its ability to perform in a real war when it had to discard most of what it learned from the Soviets? Bring back the Korean War vets like how often the Chinese conscript rejects here have done? Militarily speaking, the PLA is as adrift as a sailboat with its sail in tatters from a storm -- a Desert Storm. All the hardware, no matter how new and boasted about by nationalistic citizens, will be as worthless as the Iraqi arms were in the face of battle tested and grimy American equipment.

The PLA is not a professional military and at best half way close to the US military. It has no recent combat records to support any doctrine it may develop or adopted. Its generals and admirals are heavily politicized and morally corrupt due to their extra-military interests in the civilian corporate sectors. If a fish rots from the head down, then the rot from the PLA's own non-professional leadership will doom the PLA in any shooting war against US.

The PLA will experience the 'shock and awe' as the Iraqis did. From the lowest private to the highest medal-ed general/admiral.

Repeat of desert storm, yea, keep telling yourself that. Once you fight a nation that Americans can actually find on a map with names of the country, we'll talk.

Yeah...That is what 'they' said about US back then as well. So talk away...

If our weapons are so ineffective, then you won't mind we sell them some more right?

Not at all. You can sell the J-20 to jungle tribesmen for all we care.

 

[Beast]

Rumors had it that the PLA generals and admirals swiftly withdrew their opinions about Desert Storm to the Politburo
before the Iraqi Army was completely ejected from Kuwait. The Soviets were not so quick...

Foreign Military Studies Office Publications - DESERT STORM: The Soviet View

The PLA was also keenly interested since just about everything about the PLA came from the Soviets, from equipment to organization to doctrines. Probably the only difference was that the PLA was still focused on the concept of "The People's War", which is essentially guerrilla warfare when an enemy was already in-country. The PLA had to know that if the time has come -- at that time -- for China had to abandon that concept.

Even though Iraq would lose, if the Iraqis managed to inflict serious casualties to the Allies, Soviet weaponry and doctrines would be vindicated from Western technical analyses and criticism and therefore what China learned and bought from the Soviets would be compelling enough for China to abandon the essentially defeatist concept of "The People's War".


What Zhivits did not say was that the pre-war 'special exercises' were not true exercises in the sense of maintaining readiness and inspection of units to ensure standards are met. But that those 'special exercises' were about technical verification of modifications to meet unexpected and unplanned combat opponents and conditions. The ability of the Americans and allies to do this practically blew the Soviet generals' minds. Despite the fact that the Soviet military leadership knew the Americans' penchant to make everything as multi-tasking capable and as flexible to changes as possible, it was the extent of the equipment's ability to do this made them realize that they continued to underestimate the Americans all the way up to when the first missile fired in the war.


This came from purely his own faith in Soviet equipment and doctrines as imparted to the Iraqis and had nothing relating to the technical aspects on how to detect the F-117, let alone shooting it down. Prior to Desert Storm, the F-117 did not have a positive image, at home and abroad, regarding its largely media fueled claimed ability to be 'invisible' to radar, never mind that the US military, from the start of the 'stealth' program, discouraged the use of the word 'invisible' since it was technically incorrect.

Note to F-35 skeptics: The F-35's public image today is exactly as the F-117's yesterday. Guess we will just have to splash a few J-20s to make the critics STFU.


The 90 minutes came from the inherent weakness of a centralized top-down command and control structure advocated by the Soviets and adopted by just about every Soviet trained and equipped military in the world, including the PLA. The 'shock and awe', and resultant paralysis for 90 minutes, occurred at all levels throughout this structure because each level demanded information from the lower levels before it could issue orders and/or execute its own mission and to provide intelligence to higher headquarters, who then would issue response instructions in a trickle down manner.


This 'high degree of professionalism' opinion did not sit well with both the Soviet and PLA genital...I mean...general staffs.

It is well known throughout the world that the US military non-commissioned officers (NCO) corps is the best educated, trained, and autonomous in the execution of their daily duties. From the infantry platoon sergeant to the aircraft crewchief to the sub chief-of-the-boat (COB), they are the best in the world. Without this backbone of any army in any era in history, the swift defeat of the Iraqi Army would not be possible. They put the NCO corps of the Soviets and the PLA to professional and technical shame.

The officers that lead these NCOs are devoid of political indoctrination common in both Soviet and Chinese militaries, leaving them with responsibilities are broader in scope and professional knowledge, especially technical ones, are deeper in details. This has been confirmed over and over by Soviet defectors, among the more famous are Viktor Belenko who flew the MIG-25 to Japan, and Vladimir Bogdanovich Rezun, aka Viktor Suvurov, of the GRU, the Soviet military intelligence unit.

Regarding this discussion, the PLA can at best come half way close under the current reform driven by the shame from Desert Storm.


The Soviet version of Baghdad Bob. And sounds a lot like the Chinese members here.


You read the highlighted correctly, folks.

According to the Soviets, which we could safely impute to be with the Chinese as well, an average MIG-29 pilot would probably best any F-15 adversary, and other fighters as well. Kinda like how the Chinese members here, of which not one ever served in uniform except that of a fast food joint, talks about the PLA.


The US SIGINT and EW capabilities have not rested since then. If anything, we made even greater progress. We created 'stealth', fielded it, and know how to defeat it. All the while the rest of the world, including Russia and China, are still struggling with it.

Like it or not, the J-20 and the PAK-FA are dead before they are even fielded.


We can also safely assume this to be representative of Chinese view as well for the PLA: 不足道的 (pathetic).

Now queue the Korean War...


That 'defeated U.S. pilot' does not give a sh1t about what other thinks of his Air Force and its aircrafts. To secure oil, we lowered our standards for the spoiled brat princes of Saudi Arabia and let them 'win' mock air combats, then praised their 'airmanship' effusively for the media to eat it all up. The MIG-29 pilots thinks they have the better fighter? Let them talk smack. We have the actual combat records on our side.


Despite the high overdrive the Soviets did for PR face saving, the rest of the world did came to look at Soviet military hardware and doctrines with as high a skepticism as the PR effort. The PLA wisely remained silent on the sidelines and let the Soviets played ball, fumbling all the way.


There goes those huge quantities of DF-21Ds for those fantasy saturation attacks against an American aircraft carrier.


And here is the sad reality for the Chinese members here.

Put aside hardware for now. Soviet doctrines that the PLA adopted and practiced by the Iraqis proved to be an utter failure in a real war, like communism so proven in the real world with competing ideologies practiced by other countries. The PLA generals and admirals swiftly withdrew their reports/opinions about Desert Storm and they did so with a lot of egg foo yung on their faces in front of the Politburo. Fortunately, we have the Soviet view to guide us on how the Chinese must have felt during that war.

If, as Marshal Kulikov stated that success in instructions and training are not guaranteed, what are we to make of the PLA regarding its ability to perform in a real war when it had to discard most of what it learned from the Soviets? Bring back the Korean War vets like how often the Chinese conscript rejects here have done? Militarily speaking, the PLA is as adrift as a sailboat with its sail in tatters from a storm -- a Desert Storm. All the hardware, no matter how new and boasted about by nationalistic citizens, will be as worthless as the Iraqi arms were in the face of battle tested and grimy American equipment.

The PLA is not a professional military and at best half way close to the US military. It has no recent combat records to support any doctrine it may develop or adopted. Its generals and admirals are heavily politicized and morally corrupt due to their extra-military interests in the civilian corporate sectors. If a fish rots from the head down, then the rot from the PLA's own non-professional leadership will doom the PLA in any shooting war against US.

The PLA will experience the 'shock and awe' as the Iraqis did. From the lowest private to the highest medal-ed general/admiral.


Yeah...That is what 'they' said about US back then as well. So talk away...


Not at all. You can sell the J-20 to jungle tribesmen for all we care.

Bringing up donkey years old thing will not bring you far.. You like to talk old things, then I like to talk about US dismay performance in Vietnam war. By your standard, Syria shall able to beat back the American like Vietnam War.

 

[gambit]

Bringing up donkey years old thing will not bring you far.. You like to talk old things, then I like to talk about US dismay performance in Vietnam war.

If you do, it would only confirm you to be the ignorant conscript reject that you are.

In the Vietnam War, the supposedly 'great' Vo Nguyen Giap lost every major set piece battles against the US. He even lost the same type against the French. He was good only at guerrilla warfare. He wisely was against the 1968 Tet Offensive but was overruled by the Politburo. Even after the US left the ground war by early 1970s, Giap lost against the SVA in the famous Easter Offensive.

 

[Beast]

If you do, it would only confirm you to be the ignorant conscript reject that you are.

In the Vietnam War, the supposedly 'great' Vo Nguyen Giap lost every major set piece battles against the US. He even lost the same type against the French. He was good only at guerrilla warfare. He wisely was against the 1968 Tet Offensive but was overruled by the Politburo. Even after the US left the ground war by early 1970s, Giap lost against the SVA in the famous Easter Offensive.

Giap lost many battle against the French but he just need one major dien bien phu in 1954 to decisively knock the French out to surrender.. The Igorant is you!

Tet offensive is a political victory and is the catalyst for non-further US deeper involvement In prolong Vietnam war. You seems to know nothing of warfare. Warfare is not just about who suffer more causualty and losses and means you will win.

 

[Genesis]

Rumors had it that the PLA generals and admirals swiftly withdrew their opinions about Desert Storm to the Politburo
before the Iraqi Army was completely ejected from Kuwait. The Soviets were not so quick...

Foreign Military Studies Office Publications - DESERT STORM: The Soviet View

The PLA was also keenly interested since just about everything about the PLA came from the Soviets, from equipment to organization to doctrines. Probably the only difference was that the PLA was still focused on the concept of "The People's War", which is essentially guerrilla warfare when an enemy was already in-country. The PLA had to know that if the time has come -- at that time -- for China had to abandon that concept.

Even though Iraq would lose, if the Iraqis managed to inflict serious casualties to the Allies, Soviet weaponry and doctrines would be vindicated from Western technical analyses and criticism and therefore what China learned and bought from the Soviets would be compelling enough for China to abandon the essentially defeatist concept of "The People's War".


What Zhivits did not say was that the pre-war 'special exercises' were not true exercises in the sense of maintaining readiness and inspection of units to ensure standards are met. But that those 'special exercises' were about technical verification of modifications to meet unexpected and unplanned combat opponents and conditions. The ability of the Americans and allies to do this practically blew the Soviet generals' minds. Despite the fact that the Soviet military leadership knew the Americans' penchant to make everything as multi-tasking capable and as flexible to changes as possible, it was the extent of the equipment's ability to do this made them realize that they continued to underestimate the Americans all the way up to when the first missile fired in the war.


This came from purely his own faith in Soviet equipment and doctrines as imparted to the Iraqis and had nothing relating to the technical aspects on how to detect the F-117, let alone shooting it down. Prior to Desert Storm, the F-117 did not have a positive image, at home and abroad, regarding its largely media fueled claimed ability to be 'invisible' to radar, never mind that the US military, from the start of the 'stealth' program, discouraged the use of the word 'invisible' since it was technically incorrect.

Note to F-35 skeptics: The F-35's public image today is exactly as the F-117's yesterday. Guess we will just have to splash a few J-20s to make the critics STFU.


The 90 minutes came from the inherent weakness of a centralized top-down command and control structure advocated by the Soviets and adopted by just about every Soviet trained and equipped military in the world, including the PLA. The 'shock and awe', and resultant paralysis for 90 minutes, occurred at all levels throughout this structure because each level demanded information from the lower levels before it could issue orders and/or execute its own mission and to provide intelligence to higher headquarters, who then would issue response instructions in a trickle down manner.


This 'high degree of professionalism' opinion did not sit well with both the Soviet and PLA genital...I mean...general staffs.

It is well known throughout the world that the US military non-commissioned officers (NCO) corps is the best educated, trained, and autonomous in the execution of their daily duties. From the infantry platoon sergeant to the aircraft crewchief to the sub chief-of-the-boat (COB), they are the best in the world. Without this backbone of any army in any era in history, the swift defeat of the Iraqi Army would not be possible. They put the NCO corps of the Soviets and the PLA to professional and technical shame.

The officers that lead these NCOs are devoid of political indoctrination common in both Soviet and Chinese militaries, leaving them with responsibilities are broader in scope and professional knowledge, especially technical ones, are deeper in details. This has been confirmed over and over by Soviet defectors, among the more famous are Viktor Belenko who flew the MIG-25 to Japan, and Vladimir Bogdanovich Rezun, aka Viktor Suvurov, of the GRU, the Soviet military intelligence unit.

Regarding this discussion, the PLA can at best come half way close under the current reform driven by the shame from Desert Storm.


The Soviet version of Baghdad Bob. And sounds a lot like the Chinese members here.


You read the highlighted correctly, folks.

According to the Soviets, which we could safely impute to be with the Chinese as well, an average MIG-29 pilot would probably best any F-15 adversary, and other fighters as well. Kinda like how the Chinese members here, of which not one ever served in uniform except that of a fast food joint, talks about the PLA.


The US SIGINT and EW capabilities have not rested since then. If anything, we made even greater progress. We created 'stealth', fielded it, and know how to defeat it. All the while the rest of the world, including Russia and China, are still struggling with it.

Like it or not, the J-20 and the PAK-FA are dead before they are even fielded.


We can also safely assume this to be representative of Chinese view as well for the PLA: 不足道的 (pathetic).

Now queue the Korean War...


That 'defeated U.S. pilot' does not give a sh1t about what other thinks of his Air Force and its aircrafts. To secure oil, we lowered our standards for the spoiled brat princes of Saudi Arabia and let them 'win' mock air combats, then praised their 'airmanship' effusively for the media to eat it all up. The MIG-29 pilots thinks they have the better fighter? Let them talk smack. We have the actual combat records on our side.


Despite the high overdrive the Soviets did for PR face saving, the rest of the world did came to look at Soviet military hardware and doctrines with as high a skepticism as the PR effort. The PLA wisely remained silent on the sidelines and let the Soviets played ball, fumbling all the way.


There goes those huge quantities of DF-21Ds for those fantasy saturation attacks against an American aircraft carrier.


And here is the sad reality for the Chinese members here.

Put aside hardware for now. Soviet doctrines that the PLA adopted and practiced by the Iraqis proved to be an utter failure in a real war, like communism so proven in the real world with competing ideologies practiced by other countries. The PLA generals and admirals swiftly withdrew their reports/opinions about Desert Storm and they did so with a lot of egg foo yung on their faces in front of the Politburo. Fortunately, we have the Soviet view to guide us on how the Chinese must have felt during that war.

If, as Marshal Kulikov stated that success in instructions and training are not guaranteed, what are we to make of the PLA regarding its ability to perform in a real war when it had to discard most of what it learned from the Soviets? Bring back the Korean War vets like how often the Chinese conscript rejects here have done? Militarily speaking, the PLA is as adrift as a sailboat with its sail in tatters from a storm -- a Desert Storm. All the hardware, no matter how new and boasted about by nationalistic citizens, will be as worthless as the Iraqi arms were in the face of battle tested and grimy American equipment.

The PLA is not a professional military and at best half way close to the US military. It has no recent combat records to support any doctrine it may develop or adopted. Its generals and admirals are heavily politicized and morally corrupt due to their extra-military interests in the civilian corporate sectors. If a fish rots from the head down, then the rot from the PLA's own non-professional leadership will doom the PLA in any shooting war against US.

The PLA will experience the 'shock and awe' as the Iraqis did. From the lowest private to the highest medal-ed general/admiral.


Yeah...That is what 'they' said about US back then as well. So talk away...


Not at all. You can sell the J-20 to jungle tribesmen for all we care.

So this some how proves we are the same 20 years later? I said our military industry didn't exist then and America's did. How is our miscalculating the outcome prove anything in this regard?

You know what the fact that you compare Chinese forces now, second in spending, 5th in exports of weapons, military experiences with countries around the world, and the largest force backed by an economy 2nd to the US to Iraq. I don't know what to tell you man.

Germans thought their tactics were the best, guess what, Nazi is illegal in Germany. Japanese thought they were invincible, crushed by the Russians. Russians thought their weapons were the best, as you said Desert storm happened. Reality is weird that way, nobody is on top forever, since the time of the Greeks and Romans.

You keep saying Chinese can't do this and can't do that due to this and that. But look at our progress, if we were really all that you say, we should have none of these things that we have. You can tell it's not easy to achieve because American allies have not achieved them.

Also this maybe hard for you to hear, US isn't the first superpower and won't be the last.

You guys call us 50 cents, but we don't work as hard as you man. Are you going to use this as a reason why American army is better too.

BTW, why do you keep bring up we never served in the army. Only idiots who can't get into a good college and get a nice job go into the military. Why the hell would I do that, so that I can be like you staring at men all day, no thanks.

Finally if you can find anything recent, that be great. If you look at Chinese military year by year, it changes so much. It's not like the US army where the changes are not that much on a year by year bases. You been on this forum enough you should know how many new equipments the PLA and branches get each year.

If you do, it would only confirm you to be the ignorant conscript reject that you are.

In the Vietnam War, the supposedly 'great' Vo Nguyen Giap lost every major set piece battles against the US. He even lost the same type against the French. He was good only at guerrilla warfare. He wisely was against the 1968 Tet Offensive but was overruled by the Politburo. Even after the US left the ground war by early 1970s, Giap lost against the SVA in the famous Easter Offensive.

Chinese Han dynasty founding emperor lost every engagement to his rival XiangYu. At their last battle, he won decisively, forced XiangYu to commit suicide.

Today we are known as the Han.

Mao only used guerrilla warfare until late 40s. He almost never engaged. Today we are "communist."

You wanna rethink this losing every battle except one and guerrilla warfare dude.

Reality don't lie, Vietnam not a French colony and China not American puppet.

 

[feilong]

If you do, it would only confirm you to be the ignorant conscript reject that you are.

In the Vietnam War, the supposedly 'great' Vo Nguyen Giap lost every major set piece battles against the US. He even lost the same type against the French. He was good only at guerrilla warfare. He wisely was against the 1968 Tet Offensive but was overruled by the Politburo. Even after the US left the ground war by early 1970s, Giap lost against the SVA in the famous Easter Offensive.

How much do you know old man? Where are you when all this warfare happen? Aren't you the boy running naked when the SVA run like dogs, stomped on each other to get onto US helicopter. Lol Vietnam most idiot president ever Nguyen Van Thieu ran to Sweden before 1973, lol South Viet nam is like pieces of yellow stuff come from you everyday look they screaming yelling in the States like dogs as you see out on California Bolsa street. Tell you the truth without 23 countries allies with US to rape 1 country, the US can't do any $h!t.

 

[sicsheep]

Rumors had it that the PLA generals and admirals swiftly withdrew their opinions about Desert Storm to the Politburo
before the Iraqi Army was completely ejected from Kuwait. The Soviets were not so quick...

Foreign Military Studies Office Publications - DESERT STORM: The Soviet View

The PLA was also keenly interested since just about everything about the PLA came from the Soviets, from equipment to organization to doctrines. Probably the only difference was that the PLA was still focused on the concept of "The People's War", which is essentially guerrilla warfare when an enemy was already in-country. The PLA had to know that if the time has come -- at that time -- for China had to abandon that concept.

Even though Iraq would lose, if the Iraqis managed to inflict serious casualties to the Allies, Soviet weaponry and doctrines would be vindicated from Western technical analyses and criticism and therefore what China learned and bought from the Soviets would be compelling enough for China to abandon the essentially defeatist concept of "The People's War".


What Zhivits did not say was that the pre-war 'special exercises' were not true exercises in the sense of maintaining readiness and inspection of units to ensure standards are met. But that those 'special exercises' were about technical verification of modifications to meet unexpected and unplanned combat opponents and conditions. The ability of the Americans and allies to do this practically blew the Soviet generals' minds. Despite the fact that the Soviet military leadership knew the Americans' penchant to make everything as multi-tasking capable and as flexible to changes as possible, it was the extent of the equipment's ability to do this made them realize that they continued to underestimate the Americans all the way up to when the first missile fired in the war.


This came from purely his own faith in Soviet equipment and doctrines as imparted to the Iraqis and had nothing relating to the technical aspects on how to detect the F-117, let alone shooting it down. Prior to Desert Storm, the F-117 did not have a positive image, at home and abroad, regarding its largely media fueled claimed ability to be 'invisible' to radar, never mind that the US military, from the start of the 'stealth' program, discouraged the use of the word 'invisible' since it was technically incorrect.

Note to F-35 skeptics: The F-35's public image today is exactly as the F-117's yesterday. Guess we will just have to splash a few J-20s to make the critics STFU.


The 90 minutes came from the inherent weakness of a centralized top-down command and control structure advocated by the Soviets and adopted by just about every Soviet trained and equipped military in the world, including the PLA. The 'shock and awe', and resultant paralysis for 90 minutes, occurred at all levels throughout this structure because each level demanded information from the lower levels before it could issue orders and/or execute its own mission and to provide intelligence to higher headquarters, who then would issue response instructions in a trickle down manner.


This 'high degree of professionalism' opinion did not sit well with both the Soviet and PLA genital...I mean...general staffs.

It is well known throughout the world that the US military non-commissioned officers (NCO) corps is the best educated, trained, and autonomous in the execution of their daily duties. From the infantry platoon sergeant to the aircraft crewchief to the sub chief-of-the-boat (COB), they are the best in the world. Without this backbone of any army in any era in history, the swift defeat of the Iraqi Army would not be possible. They put the NCO corps of the Soviets and the PLA to professional and technical shame.

The officers that lead these NCOs are devoid of political indoctrination common in both Soviet and Chinese militaries, leaving them with responsibilities are broader in scope and professional knowledge, especially technical ones, are deeper in details. This has been confirmed over and over by Soviet defectors, among the more famous are Viktor Belenko who flew the MIG-25 to Japan, and Vladimir Bogdanovich Rezun, aka Viktor Suvurov, of the GRU, the Soviet military intelligence unit.

Regarding this discussion, the PLA can at best come half way close under the current reform driven by the shame from Desert Storm.


The Soviet version of Baghdad Bob. And sounds a lot like the Chinese members here.


You read the highlighted correctly, folks.

According to the Soviets, which we could safely impute to be with the Chinese as well, an average MIG-29 pilot would probably best any F-15 adversary, and other fighters as well. Kinda like how the Chinese members here, of which not one ever served in uniform except that of a fast food joint, talks about the PLA.


The US SIGINT and EW capabilities have not rested since then. If anything, we made even greater progress. We created 'stealth', fielded it, and know how to defeat it. All the while the rest of the world, including Russia and China, are still struggling with it.

Like it or not, the J-20 and the PAK-FA are dead before they are even fielded.


We can also safely assume this to be representative of Chinese view as well for the PLA: 不足道的 (pathetic).

Now queue the Korean War...


That 'defeated U.S. pilot' does not give a sh1t about what other thinks of his Air Force and its aircrafts. To secure oil, we lowered our standards for the spoiled brat princes of Saudi Arabia and let them 'win' mock air combats, then praised their 'airmanship' effusively for the media to eat it all up. The MIG-29 pilots thinks they have the better fighter? Let them talk smack. We have the actual combat records on our side.


Despite the high overdrive the Soviets did for PR face saving, the rest of the world did came to look at Soviet military hardware and doctrines with as high a skepticism as the PR effort. The PLA wisely remained silent on the sidelines and let the Soviets played ball, fumbling all the way.


There goes those huge quantities of DF-21Ds for those fantasy saturation attacks against an American aircraft carrier.


And here is the sad reality for the Chinese members here.

Put aside hardware for now. Soviet doctrines that the PLA adopted and practiced by the Iraqis proved to be an utter failure in a real war, like communism so proven in the real world with competing ideologies practiced by other countries. The PLA generals and admirals swiftly withdrew their reports/opinions about Desert Storm and they did so with a lot of egg foo yung on their faces in front of the Politburo. Fortunately, we have the Soviet view to guide us on how the Chinese must have felt during that war.

If, as Marshal Kulikov stated that success in instructions and training are not guaranteed, what are we to make of the PLA regarding its ability to perform in a real war when it had to discard most of what it learned from the Soviets? Bring back the Korean War vets like how often the Chinese conscript rejects here have done? Militarily speaking, the PLA is as adrift as a sailboat with its sail in tatters from a storm -- a Desert Storm. All the hardware, no matter how new and boasted about by nationalistic citizens, will be as worthless as the Iraqi arms were in the face of battle tested and grimy American equipment.

The PLA is not a professional military and at best half way close to the US military. It has no recent combat records to support any doctrine it may develop or adopted. Its generals and admirals are heavily politicized and morally corrupt due to their extra-military interests in the civilian corporate sectors. If a fish rots from the head down, then the rot from the PLA's own non-professional leadership will doom the PLA in any shooting war against US.

The PLA will experience the 'shock and awe' as the Iraqis did. From the lowest private to the highest medal-ed general/admiral.


Yeah...That is what 'they' said about US back then as well. So talk away...


Not at all. You can sell the J-20 to jungle tribesmen for all we care.

Really Chinese use Soviet Tactics? Mao executed Pro-soviet tactics in the 1930s after the PLA ,Back then called "Chinese Red Army" suffered great casualties against the nationalist for using soviet tactics. It just shows you know nothing about the PLA.

Iraqis also abandoned soviet doctrine in the 80s,

"Movement away from Soviet doctrine was also seen in land warfare, where the Iraqis also learned to place greater emphasis on training and preparation for complex combined arms operations"

Half of your military are high school drop outs and people who wants citizenship. here is some fact for you

"the People's Liberation Army has always had sufficient volunteers, so conscription has not been required in practice at all"

Not at all. You can sell the J-20 to jungle tribesmen for all we care.

Maybe we should pay you to brief your congress, Oh wait, they don't take COLLAGE REJECTS

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Gambit is correct. That is a contingency plan.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A sixth U.S. warship is now operating in the eastern Mediterranean, near five U.S. destroyers armed with cruise missiles that could soon be directed against Syria as part of a "limited, precise" strike, defense officials said late on Friday.

They stressed that the USS San Antonio, an amphibious ship with several hundred U.S. Marines on board, was in the region for a different reason and there were no plans to put Marines on the ground as part of any military action against Syria.

One of the officials said the San Antonio's passage into the Mediterranean was long-planned, but officials thought it prudent to keep the ship in the eastern Mediterranean near the destroyers given the current situation.

"It's been kept there as a precaution," said one of the officials, who was not authorized to speak publicly.

The San Antonio transited through the Suez Canal on Thursday from the Red Sea, and received new orders on Friday to remain in the eastern Mediterranean, near the destroyers, according to defense officials. It is one of three ships that are carrying 2,200 Marines who have been on a six-month deployment in the region around the Arabian peninsula.

Wow, the Mongoloid Gambit is correct, that must be something from a Caucasoid supremacist Hindustani.

 

[That Guy]

okay guys, that's enough. Stick to the topic and stop trolling each other, God knows we have enough of that in the politics section.

 

[xunzi]

I wish the great powers engage in a proxy game war. China/Russia supply weapon to Assad regime while USA and Allies supply to Rebel and let both duel it out. It's more fair than having USA engage in as we all know that is not fair for Assad regime to face a much bigger force PLUS her ally. Let see the USA fought by themselves. In fact, they lost terribly when fighting themselves like in Vietnam War.

 

[qwerrty]

depends on user and their ability to defend from sabotage from hostile forces.. then we can talk about performance here. lol