What's new

Syrian opposition group reportedly recognizes Israel

Western and Arab nations provided Iraq with military and economic support - it was referred to as "The Tilt" in Washington. But that doesn't mean Israel is providing these to the Syrian rebels.

Same story, different bitch. To all intents and purposes, Israel acts largely the same as western countries.

Still, however, democracy is easier to manipulate than dictatorships. If the US gets into a future disagreement with its new Iranian ally, then it won't be able to peacefully remove the Iranian leaders from power. But should Iran be a democracy, then the US can always make sure it lets pro-US political parties win the general/presidential elections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état

The real question is whether becoming part of the US sphere of influence is necessarily a bad thing. For countries like Germany and Japan, it has worked wonders. In exchange for becoming part of the US-led international system, these countries have benefited a lot in terms of economics, technology and science. Moreover, the citizens of these countries enjoy many kinds of freedoms and liberties.

So is it that bad? The world has always been that way.

Iran has 4 decades of experience being the west's bitch, we aren't going back to that crap. Your shallow assessments are ignoring experience. That isn't prosperity, it's slavery with perks.

Great example of Japan by the way. Iran should build nukes and nuke itself with them, then it'll be all advanced and prosperous.

Finally, becoming part of a US-led international system does not necessarily mean Iran will lose its autonomy. At the end of the day, all countries are autonomous and independent decision-makers, including those that appear to act as puppets to greater powers.

Yes, we saw how autonomous and independent the Shah was.

Almost every country under US hegemony has to yield to it. By definition, the only reason they control you is because their interests conflict with yours and by controlling you they can make you yield to it's will. So by being under US hegemony, every country is going against it's national interests in one way or another.
 
. . .
Same story, different bitch. To all intents and purposes, Israel acts largely the same as western countries.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état



Iran has 4 decades of experience being the west's bitch, we aren't going back to that crap. Your shallow assessments are ignoring experience. That isn't prosperity, it's slavery with perks.

Great example of Japan by the way. Iran should build nukes and nuke itself with them, then it'll be all advanced and prosperous.



Yes, we saw how autonomous and independent the Shah was.

Almost every country under US hegemony has to yield to it. By definition, the only reason they control you is because their interests conflict with yours and by controlling you they can make you yield to it's will. So by being under US hegemony, every country is going against it's national interests in one way or another.
Nonsense. It's the other way around! Countries accept becoming part of the US sphere of influence precisely because they see it in their best interest to do so lol.

Take Poland as an excellent example. It's situated between two hostile powers: Germany and Russia. The Poles do not trust either country.

Poland has aligned closer with the US precisely in order to protect its sovereignty and precisely for its own national interests.

The same goes for the GCC states. The GCC states in the 1960s through 70s felt threatened by Egypt, therefore they aligned closer with Iran and the US in order to protect their interests. The fact that they accepted Iranian protection did not mean that they took orders from the Shah.

Speaking of the Shah, he wasn't a puppet by any means. In fact, the Westerners, particularly the British, considered him to be a very difficult person to deal with, despite the healthy ties between Iran and the West.

Iran was getting a lot in exchange for its good relations with the West. It was the strongest military power in the region. No country, not even the Soviet Union, dared to threaten or undermine Iran's sovereignty and territorial integrity. Speaking of the Soviet Union, you should remember that it was the Americans who forced the Soviets out of Iranian lands in the 1940s and forced the Soviet Union to stop supporting a Kurdish separatist state in northwestern Iran. And it was the British who gave Sheikh Khazal's Arabistan to the Iranians.

None of these things would have happened had Iran not been an ally of the West, nor would the West have given Iran the green light to take the disputed Persian Gulf islands away from the Emirates.

All of these things were enabled by Iran's healthy ties with the West.

And let's not forget all the Israeli engineers who helped build Iran's nuclear power plants in the 1960s and 70s.

At least try to be pragmatic and admit that Iran got many things from the West in exchange for being a Western ally.

In no way did that make the Shah a yes-man anymore than it makes the mullahs today puppets of Putin.

All countries, including countries we can classify as "puppet states", have their own best interests at heart and have enough autonomy to make their own decisions.

Nice of you to swiftly ignore everything Japan, Korea, Germany and other countries have achieved as a result of being American allies. Koreans used to be rice farmers in the 60s. By the 1980s they became an industrial powerhouse due to American technologies.

So what exactly is wrong with occasionally cooperating with the Americans?

Iran's anti-Western stubbornness has hurt Iran's allies and regional interests a lot more than it has benefited them. Iran's irrational and defiant enmity with Israel has made many Shia groups across the region a target of not only the West but also radical Sunni actors based in the Middle East. Iran wasn't able to protect them that it ended up making a pact with Russia of all countries. Would you rather be stabbed in the back by Russia for the umpteenth time in your country's long and troublesome history with the Russian nation, or would you rather make a deal with the "devil" and at least preserve your regional interests and ensure the long-term safety of your allies?

Iran is shooting itself in the foot by being stubborn. Politics has no place for stubborn people. Politics is dirty and it needs pragmatic and realistic people who appreciate the fact that there are no permanent friends or foes; only permanent interests.

--------------------

Oh and as for Japan, I'm glad I used Japan as an example. Japan is considered to be an American puppet state, and yet it now has its very own sphere of influence in the Far East as a result of its healthy ties with the US. The same goes for Germany. Germany virtually rules over most of mainland Europe, and it couldn't have done it without US support lol. Hitler would shoot himself if he realized that he could've turned Germany into a European power without firing a single shot.
 
.
Countries accept becoming part of the US sphere of influence precisely because they see it in their best interest to do so

Rubbish. Most countries have no choice.


... became part of NATO following the Soviet collapse. Install the right government and sure, that government will claim it is in Poland's interest to change the currency to dog sh*t, let alone being a US subordinate.

The same goes for the GCC states. The GCC states in the 1960s through 70s felt threatened by Egypt, therefore they aligned closer with Iran and the US in order to protect their interests. The fact that they accepted Iranian protection did not mean that they took orders from the Shah.

LOL. Iran was a piss poor and weak country up until the mid-1970s. And even then, the GCC states didn't trust Iran because of the Shah's relationship with Israel.

In fact, the Westerners, particularly the British, considered him to be a very difficult person to deal with

The British considered him difficult to deal because of their lingering colonial interests in Bahrain. Everyone else had no problem, and even the British sold loads of arms.

It was the strongest military power in the region.

Thats more of a US gain since Iran was the biggest arms buyer in it's history and it's huge order even saved the the F-14 fighter jet project. But after the revolution all that purchasing meant nothing when Iran had no way to maintain the military that it had bought, not made.

No country, not even the Soviet Union, dared to threaten or undermine Iran's sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Yes they did. They were conducting recon flights into Iran with their MiG-25s constantly.

Speaking of the Soviet Union, you should remember that it was the Americans who forced the Soviets out of Iranian lands

So? As far as they were concerned, they were preventing the commies from taking apart their new bitch. They don't care about Iran, only about controlling it for their own means.

And it was the British who gave Sheikh Khazal's Arabistan to the Iranians.

So they could then easily allow a weak dynasty like the Pahlavis in, allowing the British to control Iran for another 20 years.

nor would the West have given Iran the green light to take the disputed Persian Gulf islands away from the Emirates.

Had the west not been involved, both the PG islands and Bahrain would still be Iranian.

And let's not forget all the Israeli engineers who helped build Iran's nuclear power plants in the 1960s and 70s.

Rubbish. The entire nuclear program was run by the Americans and later the Germans.

At least try to be pragmatic and admit that Iran got many things from the West in exchange for being a Western ally.

I can think of many things, most of them not good, and even those that were good were entirely expected for a country with Iran's oil wealth. Being the west's bitch isn't the only criteria for economic success.

All countries, including countries we can classify as "puppet states", have their own best interests at heart and have enough autonomy to make their own decisions.

That perceived autonomy doesn't mean sh*t when the very mentality and government of the nation has been created by the puppeteers. The autonomy is an illusion because while you think you are acting in your own interests, you have to conform to norms and ideas which are created by, and hence favour, your puppeteer. Its like raising a child from birth with its only purpose being to wash your clothes. It will eventually have a choice, to wash the red clothes or the white clothes first. It likes the colour red, so it washes the red clothes first. It made a choice in it's own interest! But it's still washing your clothes. I understand this is an odd analogy but I'm writing this quickly.

And after all this, the puppeteer often simply overrules the puppet's "autonomous" decisions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_Prefecture#U.S._military_controversy

Nice of you to swiftly ignore everything Japan, Korea, Germany and other countries have achieved as a result of being American allies. Koreans used to be rice farmers in the 60s. By the 1980s they became an industrial powerhouse due to American technologies.

The Americans bought the world with the Marshall Plan. They gave loans (not grants!) in exchange for subordination.

Also;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_plans_for_German_industry_after_World_War_II

Besides, China is also an industrial powerhouse, yet it didn't have to be the US' bitch to get there.

So what exactly is wrong with occasionally cooperating with the Americans?

Nothing. There is nothing wrong with occasional cooperation and trade. But there is a great deal wrong with submission.

Iran's anti-Western stubbornness has hurt Iran's allies and regional interests a lot more than it has benefited them. Iran's irrational and defiant enmity with Israel has made many Shia groups across the region a target of not only the West but also radical Sunni actors based in the Middle East.

Oh. I see. It's Iran's fault that Shia are oppressed and Israel seeks regional hegemony. Because before the revolution, Shia were never oppressed even once, and Israel never bullied its neighbours.

You're becoming quite like the Saudis on this forum. Next you'll be saying Iran created ISIS.

Iran wasn't able to protect them that it ended up making a pact with Russia of all countries.

Pact? You make it seem like Iran is the only one getting anything here. The Russians had their own interests in Syria. Iran and Russia both want the government to win in Syria. The countries have different strengths, which when put together, complement each other. That's not a pact, miss, that's simple coordination.

Iran is shooting itself in the foot by being stubborn.

Yes! Why doesn't Iran become America's prostitute already! I hear they pay well if you do what they like!

Oh and as for Japan, I'm glad I used Japan as an example. Japan is considered to be an American puppet state, and yet it now has its very own sphere of influence in the Far East as a result of its healthy ties with the US. The same goes for Germany. Germany virtually rules over most of mainland Europe, and it couldn't have done it without US support lol. Hitler would shoot himself if he realized that he could've turned Germany into a European power without firing a single shot.

It isn't Germany or Japan's sphere of influence, it is America's. Remind me how many military bases Japan and Germany have in the US? No? I've already explained why this perceived "autonomy" is fake.

What is up with you? Do you think the US sh*ts pure gold, farts glitter and its vomit is made of rainbows? While everyone talks of the death and destruction the west has brought upon the middle east, you are extolling its values as if they are here on a humanitarian mission. Their entire global hegemony is designed to keep everyone else as their bitches and themselves at the top of the food chain, dammit! What the f*ck do you find so great in that! Would you also approve of prostitution if the clients are paying a million dollars?
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom