Supreme Court rejects pleas against Hafiz Saeed's release

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I meant the Government of Pakistan should put him in detention, indefinite, not the Pakistani Supreme Court.

I am a night school MBA, not a lawyer (New York University Graduate Business School).

My meaning is/was that when an ally, in this case the US, through our intelligence and legal agencies, CIA and FBI, find a person involved in funneling and raising money for al Qaida and the Taliban, that to us is grounds to put him into detention, indefinately.

The approach of the Supreme Court, be it in Pakistan or in the US, is not the subject. But, a quick way to not do what you tell the US and NATO allies, and India regarding Mumbai, you will do is to place the issue where it doesn't belong, before the Pak SC, knowing they will toss it and the terrorist supporter goes back on the streets.

I think this fellow fled the US, be glad to be corrected, and turned up there. US intel found him and asked Pakistan Government to nail him.

I do not "know it all" but there is a clear cut difference of tolerating support of violent terrorism. Both Musharraf and now Zardari were and are less than 100% genuine to our corporate joint Pak/US security needs. vs. fawning over use of terrorists in places like Kashmir, which is not the subject.

Different cultures, in common religious history as all the children of Abraham, which genuine in common religious history is distorted by the terrorists. Etc.

You are not going to find very much public support for suspending the rule of law and indefinite detentions in Pakistan currently. Even with a low level separatist insurgency in Baluchistan, with the rebel groups claiming the massacres of innocent people, especially non-Baluch, and essentially calling for a 'genocide' in Baluchistan (eliminating all non-Baluch), there is tremendous public sympathy for the alleged 'thousands of missing Baluch' secretly detained during Musharraf's rule.

In fact, these secret detentions were one of the issues over which the SC was going to rule against Musharraf, and became a lightening rod issue during the campaign to unseat him. There is rising criticsm over the indefinite detention of the possibly thousands of suspected Taliban militants captured on the battlefield, with the Army asking the GoP to take the lead in setting up some sort of system to process these people, and GoP as usual doing nothing.

But overall I agree with the Dawn editorial posted by Prometheus earlier - the issue is not the fact that these individuals are given due process and tired by a court, but that Pakistani investigation agencies are ill equipped and ill trained to successfully prosecute these cases. As the editorial mentioned, Hafiz Saeed is not the only alleged 'terrorist' released on the basis of a lack of evidence in the last few weeks.

Also, I am unaware of Hafiz Saeed coming to Pakistan from the US. AFAIK, he has nothing to do with the US, and has condemned and denied the Mumbai attacks.

I am completely against detaining individuals on the say so of the intelligence agencies of another country, even an ally. The fiasco that is the Iraqi WMD war is too recent and its consequences too painful to really put that kind of faith in the CIA and risk the lives of the accused individuals.

If the CIA has evidence to support its allegations of terrorist activity, then it needs to cooperate with Pakistani authorities and help bring about an iron clad case against the individuals/entities, and these entities should have the right to defend themselves in a court of law.

 

[jolly67]

India will be attacked again, its only a matter of time. They've played this cat and mouse game for over a decade now.

Hafiz Muhammad Saeed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lets see how far plausible deniability gets them the next time around. Pakistan clearly isn't interested in a peaceful resolution to the Kashmir dispute, why else would it keep this guy around?

We will keep this guy, till peaceful plebecite happens in kashmir.

 

[Spitfighter]

^^ Only it'll never happen as long as he's around and if we get attacked in the meantime then both India and Pakistan will be left with very little room to maneuver. So not only will Kashmir never be solved, Pakistan also risks war.

 

[American Eagle]

I respect your differeing thoughts but simply disagree.

For example terrorists in detention at Baghran Air Base in Afghanistan just lost an appeal to the US Supreme Court that they be given trial in US federal courts.

The point is to me and to many, there and here, is that when terrorists who are simultaneously insurrectionists at "at war" with us and you then they are not entitled to the routine criminal trial venues here in the US. That was the jest of the US Supreme Court just last week.

Also, non-US citizens unless comminting law breaking inside the US, have no entitlement to us citizens rights, which says to US courts.

How about some crazy in Somalia blowing up a US Consulate? Many die including US State Dept. personnel there. He the terrorist has no entitlement to US court trails in the US even if captured by a US military team/task force in Somalia.

I think at issue now is this fellow being a front and fund raiser for the Taliban and al Qaida.

Let me do a little more research on this end and I will get back to this topic.

Thanks for the courteousy of your reply but understand anyone who is aiding and abetting our in common enemies is automatically in my mind my and our enemy, not an innocent fellow citizen there.

Baseball scores from yesterday's Southeaster Conference Baseball games: Alabama 7, Auburn 2. Vanderbilt 2, University of Arkansas 0.

This afternoon I return to the Hoover Met ball field to watch a 4:30 PM local time baseball game between Alabama and the University of Mississippi (Ole Miss). Tongiht we are back at the stadium to watch Vanderbilt play Louisiana State University [LSU]. Of course there are other games but these are the ones we are most interested in and following here.

Faster than cricket matches!

 

[Patriot]

I respect your differeing thoughts but simply disagree.

For example terrorists in detention at Baghran Air Base in Afghanistan just lost an appeal to the US Supreme Court that they be given trial in US federal courts.

The point is to me and to many, there and here, is that when terrorists who are simultaneously insurrectionists at "at war" with us and you then they are not entitled to the routine criminal trial venues here in the US. That was the jest of the US Supreme Court just last week.

Also, non-US citizens unless comminting law breaking inside the US, have no entitlement to us citizens rights, which says to US courts.

How about some crazy in Somalia blowing up a US Consulate? Many die including US State Dept. personnel there. He the terrorist has no entitlement to US court trails in the US even if captured by a US military team/task force in Somalia.

I think at issue now is this fellow being a front and fund raiser for the Taliban and al Qaida.

Let me do a little more research on this end and I will get back to this topic.

Thanks for the courteousy of your reply but understand anyone who is aiding and abetting our in common enemies is automatically in my mind my and our enemy, not an innocent fellow citizen there.

Baseball scores from yesterday's Southeaster Conference Baseball games: Alabama 7, Auburn 2. Vanderbilt 2, University of Arkansas 0.

This afternoon I return to the Hoover Met ball field to watch a 4:30 PM local time baseball game between Alabama and the University of Mississippi (Ole Miss). Tongiht we are back at the stadium to watch Vanderbilt play Louisiana State University [LSU]. Of course there are other games but these are the ones we are most interested in and following here.

Faster than cricket matches!

I think you're comparing apples to oranges.The individual we're talking about here have no declared war on India, US or Pakistan.He has nothing to do with US nor did CIA/FBI gave any evidence against him.

 

[Bang Galore]

I think you're comparing apples to oranges.The individual we're talking about here have no declared war on India, US or Pakistan.He has nothing to do with US nor did CIA/FBI gave any evidence against him.

Yeah,yeah ! We know. He is Pakistan's greatest charity worker.

One Mumbai not enough: Hafiz Saeed

NEW DELHI: Barely days before the Indo-Pak engagement, Jamaat-ud-Dawa chief Hafiz Saeed has surfaced, inciting jihad against India. At a ‘Kashmir solidarity’ rally in Lahore, Saeed, accused by India of masterminding the Mumbai terror attack, was back at spewing venom against India saying jihadis were willing to go a long way for liberating Kashmir.

The leader of the banned outfit, who clearly timed his rally ahead of the Indo-Pak talks, told a huge gathering of his supporters that jihad was the only option left as India would never let go of Kashmir. Threatening India with dire consequences he further said that India would suffer the same fate over Kashmir as the Soviet Union in
Afghanistan and the US reverses in Afghanistan.

Tapes of the rally, which have been accessed by a television channel, showed Saeed’s supporters waving Klashnikovs and shouting anti-India slogans. The rally was taken out by JuD and is seen as a clear instance of the Pakistani establishment’s reluctance to take steps against the group, which has been proscribed by the UNSC as a front for the Lashkar-e-Toiba.

In his public rant, Saeed also dismissed the Mumbai terror attacks saying ``ek Bombay kya hota hai’’. He even went to the ridiculous length of suggesting that India and Pakistan should renegotiate the Partition of India and discuss the creation of Bangladesh. Saying that the London conference on Afghanistan signaled the defeat of the US and allied forces, he said India would suffer a similar fate in Kashmir.

With the Mumbai terror attacks forming the core of Indian concerns on terror, New Delhi is sure to raise the matter of Saeed openly inciting terror against India. Foreign secretary Nirupama Rao had said in London on Monday that India was disturbed by the calls for jihad that were being brazenly made against India even in the face of New Delhi’s attempt to establish a channel of communication with Islamabad.

Saeed’s call for jihad also comes in the backdrop of the Pakistani government’s stated intention of introducing Kashmir as the core issue in the foreign secretary level talks. Though New Delhi has said all issues could be raised, it has also said that the meeting would not be a forum for conflict resolution. The Indian side in an effort to put pressure on Pakistan over terror has been saying that the future of talks depends on Pakistan’s action against terror. But Saeed inciting jihad in Lahore just ahead of the talks is not seen as boding well for the India-Pakistan engagement.
One Mumbai not enough: Hafiz Saeed-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times


Mumbai profile: Lashkar e Taiba
Lashkar e Taiba, the group believed to have launched the deadly 2008 attack on Mumbai, is thought by some analysts to pose a greater threat to the West than al-Qaeda.


While Osama-bin-Laden's network is under siege, the LeT survives, according to some, under the patronage of Pakistan's powerful ISI intelligence agency.

It was formed by Muslim cleric Hafiz Mohammad Saeed in Afghanistan in the late 1980s, and nurtured by the Pakistan military as a force which could be deployed against India in Kashmir.

Since then it has grown into an international organisation with wide support throughout Asia, Australia, Britain and the United States.

It's attack on Mumbai highlighted its strength and reach. Its 'fedayeen' commandos were trained in special forces skills including the navigation of ocean-going vessels use of sophisticated GPS navigation equipment, and managed to hold off India's elite special forces for four days.

It has groups in India, Nepal and Bangladesh and the support of tens of thousands of followers of Jamat-ud-Dawa, Hafiz Saeed's charity which runs schools and colleges throughout Pakistan.

During the 2005 Kashmir earthquake its men were first on the scene, beating government rescuers and aid agencies to distribute five million pounds.

Security analysts are divided on the group's ambition: The arrest last autumn of LeT agent David Coleman Headley, a Pakistani-American, as he plotted an attack on a Danish newspaper which had published a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, indicated a global agenda.

Some Western analysts are not convinced. Stephen Tankel believes Lashkar e Taiba will target western interests but that its main priority is to attack India.

"Evidence suggests the group is prepared to support attacks against the West, but not at the expense of its war against India. LeT willingly co-ordinated with [David] Headley on attacking Danish targets, but when the opportunity arose to use him to prepare new attacks in India, LeT suggested he shift focus to South Asia," he wrote in a paper for the West Point Counter Terrorism Centre Sentinel.

To others, its focus on attacking India is sufficient cause for concern.

Another attack launched by the LeT or any other militant group in India, could be enough to start a fourth war between South Asia's nuclear rivals.

Mumbai profile: Lashkar e Taiba - Telegraph

 

[American Eagle]

You are correct in that I have scrambled my information and this fellow is not who I had in mind who escaped US justice to now be inside Pakistan. That is my mistake, my fault, and I offer my apology for miscues.

Here is the factual info I just came up with to clarify matters from me. My references to others seeking to use US court system obviously do not apply in this instance, you are again correct. However, my examples of the latest US Supreme Court ruling here are meant to focus that we do not deal with terrorism in a routine court setting when we are dealing here with a man who raises money to support religious anarchy inside your good nation of Pakistan, as well as inside India, ie, Mumbai.

This happens when I try to rush information on line when racing around between events here...all my fault, no excuses for me!

The complex, convoluted history surrounding Kashmir provides cover for and to Hafiz Saeed. He has been in and out of jail, home arrest, etc. for years now, so he is not a "new" problem but is a real persistent and unpleasant problem who funds, my view, terrorism, and is in consort with the ISI, which organization is not respected here due to it's current and past history of playing footsey with terrorists over Kashmir and India.

As I wrote yesterday about Kashmir, I am a outsider who served and lived there just under two years. But since then first as an International Banking Officer in NYC , and later via my USAF reserve career...including time in the Office of the Chief of Staff of HQ US Special Operations Command in Tampa and on worldwide exercises inside and outside the US...I have tried, particularly since 911 to get back up to "current tense" speed on matters in the Indian subcontinent. This led to me now having written articles and letters, published, numbering over 200 since 911 in your region of the world, and advocating the Andorran Model to solve Kashmir peacefully.

Here is the info I just qualfied on Hafiz Saeed, who would in my book were I a Pakistani be a terrorist supporter of the first order. Understand that Hafiz Saeed is on the terrorist list of the UN and his organization likewise is on the UN Terrorist Organization list, too. The UN does it's own vetting process.

Report an ErrorTimes Topics > Organizations > L > Lashkar-e-TaibaSign in to Recommend
E-MAILLashkar-e-Taiba
Barry Bearak/The New York TimesUpdated: Sept. 30, 2009

Lashkar-e-Taiba, or Army of the Pure, was formed to fight against India's rule over disputed territories in Kashmir. In recent years, American and Indian officials have blamed it for a campaign of violence against high-profile targets throughout India, including the terror attacks on Mumbai in November 2008, the December 2001 attack on the Indian Parliament building in New Delhi and an August 2007 strike at an amusement park in Hyderabad.

At left, one of the group's posters suggests that the map of the subcontinent be changed to include ''more Pakistans.''

The United States and India blamed Lashkar-e-Taiba for the Mumbai attacks, in which more than 160 people were killed in a rampage across two five-star hotels, a Jewish center and a busy train station.

Despite pledges from Pakistan to dismantle military groups operating on its soil, and the arrest of a handful of its operatives, Lashkar has persisted, even flourished since the attacks on Mumbai.

Read More...

THE CREATION OF LASKHAR-E-TAIBA

Pakistan's chief spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate, or ISI, helped create Lashkar two decades ago to challenge Indian control in Kashmir, the disputed territory that lies at the heart of the conflict between the nuclear-armed neighbors.

The membership of Lashkar extends to about 150,000 people, according to a midlevel officer in Pakistan's premier spy agency, the Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence. Together with Jaish-e-Muhammad, a Kashmiri insurgent group, the Lashkar loyalists could put Pakistan "up in flames," the officer admitted. But sympathies for Lashkar and its jihadist and anti-Indian culture run deep in Pakistan, raising a serious challenge to any long-lasting moves to dismantle the network.

By all accounts Lashkar's network, though dormant, remains alive, and the possibility that it could strike India again makes Lashkar a wild card in one of the most volatile regions of the world.

THE MUMBAI ATTACKS

The Pakistani investigation concludes "beyond any reasonable doubt" that it was Lashkar militants who carried out the Mumbai attacks, preying on their victims in a train station, two five-star hotels, a cafe and a Jewish center over three days starting last Nov. 26.

According to testimony by the only surviving attacker, Ajmal Kasab, Lashkar recruits were vetted and trained around the country, including at well-established camps in Muzaffarabad, in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir, as well as in Mansehra, in North-West Frontier Province.

Mr. Kasab's surprise confession in July 2009 made clear that Lashkar-e-Taiba has the capacity to quickly and inexpensively train young men from villages into intensely driven, proficient killers, a senior Obama administration official said.

Pakistani authorities have arrested seven men linked to the Mumbai attack, including Hammad Amin Sadiq, a homeopathic pharmacist who, according to Pakistani documents on the attacks, arranged bank accounts and secured supplies, and Zaki ur-Rehman Lakhvi, a man well known as the chief of operations for Lashkar. They are searching for at least 13 other suspects.

But their investigation has come up short of the founder of Lashkar, Hafiz Saeed, the man Indian and Western officials accuse of masterminding the attacks.

MURKY TIES TO PAKISTAN

Pakistan said it had severed ties to Lashkar in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks, under pressure from the Bush administration to join its campaign against terrorism. No credible evidence has emerged of Pakistani government involvement in the Mumbai attacks, according to an American law enforcement official.

But a senior American intelligence official said the ISI was believed to maintain ties with Lashkar.

Obama administration officials say they are still trying to understand the state of relations between Pakistan and the group. Among the most likely versions, they say, none would tamp down hostilities between Pakistan and India.

The possibilities include that Lashkar remains a lever of the Pakistani state; that the group and others have realigned themselves quietly behind the interests of Pakistan and could be used covertly; and that the groups have broken away from the official security apparatus and are running independently.

A senior Pakistani official reinforced the last option, saying the connections between Pakistan's spy agency and Lashkar-e-Taiba were so sundered that it was a matter of regret that the military could no longer control them.

A lack of control could have as devastating consequences as if the Pakistani Army was still supporting the groups, two senior American officials said. "My guess is, the army did not have command knowledge" of the Mumbai attacks, one of the American officials said. "Was there a lack of discipline? It's a very, very serious issue whichever way it is."

The commander of the Pakistani Army, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, has said in conversations with the Obama administration that he was trying to control Lashkar.

 

[SMC]

Yeah,yeah ! We know. He is Pakistan's greatest charity worker.

One Mumbai not enough: Hafiz Saeed
...

That's not enough. There's probably several comparable Indian spiritual leaders living in India who have said the corresponding things for Pakistan. And they are probably living in very fine conditions, mind you.

 

[Spitfighter]

^^Hafiz Saeed is now a 'spiritual leader'?? Nice

 

[SMC]

You know, I am using the term loosely. I also used the same term to refer to people such as Bal Thackery.

 

[SRK]

To be Honest , Govt cant interfere in Judiciary functioning, when Pakistan Govt itself confronting Judiciary on NRO and Swiss bank account cases then how can we expect that Pak Govt can ask Courts to review their decisions, The Only way is to get convinced Pak Govt and get Interior ministry to supply more evidences which could lead to conviction of accused.

Judiciary now a days in Pakistan is independent after Mr. Choudhary reinstatement as CJ of Pakistan.

Lets hope Mr. Chidambaram and Mr. Krishna during their forth coming visits to Islamabad will convince Mr. Rehman Malik and exert some kind of pressure backed by some more solid proofs which could bring perpetrators of 26/11 to Justice.

 

[naveed qaiser]

A militant friendly Supreme Court of Pakistan on Tuesday dismissed the federal government’s appeal, filed a year ago in June 2009, challenging the release of the Lashkar-e-Toiba’s founding ameer Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, who had been placed under house arrest in December 2008 at his Lahore residence following allegations of his involvement in the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks which killed 166 people.

The federal government’s appeal against the Lahore High Court’s order to put an end to Saeed’s house arrest and set him free was filed on June 24, 2009 but could not be taken up earlier by the apex court for various technical reasons. The Supreme Court quashed the appeal, saying the government had failed to provide sufficient evidence against Hafiz Mohammad Saeed pertaining to his alleged involvement in the Mumbai attacks of November 2008 that killed 166 people. The apex court’s verdict actually upheld the Lahore High Court’s June 3, 2009 judgment when it decided Saeed’s habeas corpus petition and ordered the Punjab government to release him immediately, saying the Pakistani authorities did not have proof to detain the petitioner for preventive measures.

 

[Awesome]

As the saying goes " Put the telescope in the blind eye " ..

even if we send 10000 dossiers..there would not be enough proof

You know since I was a kid, India has been blabbering, about this Pakistani and that Pakistani. Dossiers are what? A file with a bunch of papers. What was in it that proves Hafiz Saeed continued with the LeT after the President of Pakistan banned that organization?

I think India is to be blamed for this release. India has refused to talk to Pakistan, let alone participate in the court proceedings going on within Pakistan. India wanted to use the deaths of its civilians for cheap publicity stunt against Pakistan and thats all it is interested in doing.

 

[arun]

Pakistan has no intention whatsoever to punish the masterminds of 26/11 or any other terrorist attack on India. It has used the terrorists to wage a proxy war against India. It would be foolish to think that Pakistan would suddenly have a change of heart and begin to crack down on the likes of LeT. Even in the unlikely event that the government makes up its mind to do so, it has to be implemented by the police, the intelligence services and the army. They are not going to abandon their terror 'leverage' in a hurry, even if they are suffering a severe 'blowback' from pursuing this policy. Plus, a significant chunk of Pakistani public believes that the 26/11 were some kind of an inside job. And this opinion is likely to be prevalent among the security forces too.

Hafiz Saeed lives in Pakistan. The 26/11 conspiracy was hatched in Pakistan. The 10 attackers set sail from Pakistan. Obviously, most of the evidence against him is in Pakistan and has to be collected by Pakistan. But of course, Pakistan is not going to do that. It took Pakistan a long time to admit that the attackers were Pakistani and they did that only after an expose by their own media and under heavy international pressure. To believe that Pakistan is going to take any action against the likes of Saeed is to fool yourself.

When Pakistan wants to cooperate, it finds ways to do so. Even if a minor event like the failed Times Square bombing occurs, Pakistanis find ways to arrest a lot of people quite fast. But when it comes to India, even after a major and spectacular terrorist attack like the Mumbai attacks, it dilly-dallies and finds ways to let the perpetrators off the hook. India needs a reality check here.

Anyway, PC will be travelling to Pakistan soo. Let's see if something comes out of it.

 

[American Eagle]

In general I agree with you.

However, I try not to loosely refer to "Pakistan" when I know many Pakistanis who are upset about and do not agree with this molly coddling of murdering thugs hiding behind the good name of Islam. I have Pakistani friends still in Pakistan as well as now naturalized and in some cases now born here in our city in the US.

"All" is a glittering generality.

I prefer to blame where blame is due, pro-terrorists in the ISI, various places in the Government of Pakistan, and in some levels of the active military...but not all, ever.

Pakistan has existed as a patchwork quilt ever since partition, loosing the East wing during the process of not having found a share and share alike power system to include all, from bottom to top, in a more trustworthy democracy vs. an ever narrowing radical right religious theocracy which has upset mainstream, majority in my view, Muslims of all sects and types throughtout all parts of Pakistan.

Hanging onto the religiously inspired hate mongering related to Kashmir has kept the masses from demanding effectively at the polls and getting at the polls a clear change of pace to deal with what is, and stop chasing religious animosity in the name of Kashmir.