Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions

[Viper0011.]

@orangzaib claimed that by looking at or magnifying the picture.. poor quality of composites is visible.... Testing of composite structures is my bread and butter..... Then the next claim was such prototype wont be allowed to fly as it poses a flight risk.... I have considerable experience aerospace and structural design and our mentor in the structural design and validation is a veteran from LM skunk works... I have little bit of idea of how TRV works in SW/LM, inspired from the same; even our dept at my current company is termed TRV (testing research and validation).

When I did pose a query on "low quality", the genius seems to be implying we have some kind of heartburn for ridiculous observations of his which are not based on any facts or informed opinions. So when it comes to quasi hack professionals, all they can do is express their frustrations and eventually claim how they are superior to us poor Indians.

I am sorry, I honestly didn't understand a thing you said......was there a point you were making or were you asking or telling me something?
The POOR India deal has nothing to do with this topic. Please don't cry foul. The issue with you guys on ANY topic is that you guys are blind patriots. Nothing India does, makes or buys is EVER inferior to anything or Good lord can EVER have an issue or anything. I have witnessed others frustration with you guys as well. I am not the only one. We are here to discuss the facts. Not play personal. ANYONE who's worked in the US military or related manufacturers in any shape will tell you that the American products have STRICT quality controls and security procedures. If a plane has open surfaces or patch work where it can generate Drag or 'Excessive Heat' during flight due to metallic patches not being covered or sensors not integrated properly or surfaces empty.....they won't fly those. PERIOD.
If you want to continue on with this, I won't respond anymore as this has become counter productive at this point.

 

[MilSpec]

I am sorry, I honestly didn't understand a thing you said......was there a point you were making or were you asking or telling me something?
The POOR India deal has nothing to do with this topic. Please don't cry foul. The issue with you guys on ANY topic is that you guys are blind patriots. Nothing India does, makes or buys is EVER inferior to anything or Good lord can EVER have an issue or anything. I have witnessed others frustration with you guys as well. I am not the only one. We are here to discuss the facts. Not play personal. ANYONE who's worked in the US military or related manufacturers in any shape will tell you that the American products have STRICT quality controls and security procedures. If a plane has open surfaces or patch work where it can generate Drag or 'Excessive Heat' during flight due to metallic patches not being covered or sensors not integrated properly or surfaces empty.....they won't fly those. PERIOD.
If you want to continue on with this, I won't respond anymore as this has become counter productive at this point.

I did ask you a simple question on poor quality of composites you found by visual inspection... please do elaborate!!!


Sensors are not deployed in every metallic/ composite surface, btw... Please go and find out the prototypes that were tested in boeing for their parametric validation... These prototypes are being tested by RAC not by RuAF... So please dont compare them to trials of prototypes done by USAF....

 

[Capt.Popeye]

@sandy_3126,
Visual inspection is the most inexact method of gauging material strength. Close to 2 decades of work in and around Ship-Yards tells me that at least. If visual inspection was sufficient then all the DT and NDT agencies that I employed would have had to go out of business. Checking a weld for instance by a well-trained technician using VI only gives an idea of its probable strength or weakness. But that can be confirmed only by DP or Radiological tests.

I noticed some discussion about joints, fasteners etc but only Gambit's inputs seemed to be experential. About composites, I do not have deal much with them, since they are used very sparingly in a Marine Environment and mostly for non-critical applications. But I did get some walk-throughs in a DRDO lab where such work is carried out; only because I knew the Director and I was then handling an issue of structural failures in a Chinese life-boat brand during load-tests.

Of course our Structural Inspector friend here wears other hats too. He can and will talk about global economics, strategisation, marketing, the works. So its par for the course.

I get the impression (following your posts) that you have more than a nodding acquiantance with Aerospace. But you will have to discuss that subject here with just about anyone from anywhere. Including Used-Car salesmen.

 

[gambit]

In short, it's Amerian ; only way and technology to do these things. Nothing come close to it ???
( simple question no other intentions )

Not the only way. But the YET best way. No one here can dispute the fact that I am proud of what US aviation have done in this area, but am not asserting that 'yet best' out of some easily conjured up sense of nationalism and chauvinism.

When you have an unchallenged leader in a field, and neither the Russians nor the Chinese are credible challengers despite what the Australians may say, if you want at least similar results if not identical, you acquire (learn) the necessary technology and materials, emulate the methodology of manufacture, and follow the exact testing regimes. Testing was where I spent the bulk of my civilian aviation life and the more exact, meaning controlled, the testing regimes, the more fine grain the data and that is invaluable to upstream engineers, designers, and manufacturing managers. That was how the Japanese and South Koreans did it and now their automobiles are as common in the US as American icons Ford and Chevrolet.

The Soviets rejected Ufimtsev's work and now they are paying the price by playing catch up to US. The Chinese did exactly what I outlined and given their determination, as far as I am concerned, China is a technological peer to Russia in 'stealth'. May be give a few months short ? Were we somewhat surprised at the Chinese? Yes. But the Russians were outright shocked senseless.

At best, if one is willing to designate anything as 'American' in this enterprise, it is in the testing regimes. That does not mean we are 'perfect' because we made plenty of mistakes, but because we are the leader in this 'stealth' thingy that it is inevitable that we will make more mistakes than the usual acceptable amount compared to established fields.

 

[Viper0011.]

I did ask you a simple question on poor quality of composites you found by visual inspection... please do elaborate!!!


Sensors are not deployed in every metallic/ composite surface, btw... Please go and find out the prototypes that were tested in boeing for their parametric validation... These prototypes are being tested by RAC not by RuAF... So please dont compare them to trials of prototypes done by USAF....

?????? What is up with you guys and your fake / weird national pride......no one compared your mighty TU-50 to USAF. All I said was that the process works different in the US due to strict QC. A plane in that shape won't be allowed to fly. Those are the strict QC standards for the safety of the pilot, the plane's and anyone else's who the plane might crash into otherwise. Read above this message. Gambit is saying pretty much the same thing for on a different topic.

The US Quality Control / Process Testing is superb in all aspects. Specifically on the military hardware and software. No one has come close to it or will come closer to it for a long while. Russians are STILL playing catch up due to making their platform mainframe based and putting their testing in larger hard to test procedures and outcomes varies due to the lack of standardization processes.

 

[Viper0011.]

@sandy_3126,
Visual inspection is the most inexact method of gauging material strength. Close to 2 decades of work in and around Ship-Yards tells me that at least. If visual inspection was sufficient then all the DT and NDT agencies that I employed would have had to go out of business. Checking a weld for instance by a well-trained technician using VI only gives an idea of its probable strength or weakness. But that can be confirmed only by DP or Radiological tests.
Of course our Structural Inspector friend here wears other hats too. He can and will talk about global economics, strategisation, marketing, the works. So its par for the course.

I get the impression (following your posts) that you have more than a nodding acquiantance with Aerospace. But you will have to discuss that subject here with just about anyone from anywhere. Including Used-Car salesmen.

Apparently I made a mistake by calling out the obvious as it was an INDIAN product. So of course, it had to be nothing but perfect. And now the whole India hates me. My man, once, I had the privilege to work with a structural engineer when I was in college. He looked at a structure from about 100 yards away and 50 feet below it. Looked again, then put his glasses on and told me, there are two 'hairline cracks' at 11'o clock. This structure will fail the inspection and and it should be deemed grounded.
I was looking and looking and looking....no where could I see the 'hairline crack' that he could see. And he had glasses and was about 40 years older than me, had served in Vietnam, etc. Anyway, I begged to differ as I couldn't see what he saw. I had to go up the ladder and go pretty much next to the structure to see it. And I had 20-20 vision. We left. Two days later....it was moved to structural integrity testing and then....bam, the repairs were requested....... tells me about visual inspection!!!
And yes, I can have a discussion with a used car salesman just as well as with the executives from companies like Shell and GE, etc and just as well with a doctor, the store manager and with a Scientist working with Genetics!!!
In my prior life, I've done many thing. This is the beauty of America. We don't always follow one line to be a doctor or engineer or a pilot. We start when we are 16 on our own and we end up with anything we wanted to achieve during our life's journey. Or some, just end up enjoying life. There are no weird socio-economic-cultural forces preventing us from doing what we want to do!!! That is why the US IS the land of opportunity and will always be the land of opportunity!!

 

[MilSpec]

?????? What is up with you guys and your fake / weird national pride......no one compared your mighty TU-50 to USAF. All I said was that the process works different in the US due to strict QC. A plane in that shape won't be allowed to fly. Those are the strict QC standards for the safety of the pilot, the plane's and anyone else's who the plane might crash into otherwise. Read above this message. Gambit is saying pretty much the same thing for on a different topic.

The US Quality Control / Process Testing is superb in all aspects. Specifically on the military hardware and software. No one has come close to it or will come closer to it for a long while. Russians are STILL playing catch up due to making their platform mainframe based and putting their testing in larger hard to test procedures and outcomes varies due to the lack of standardization processes.

You have a pair of eyes I am assuming. If you take a look at the airframe (close up) and if you have a software that can let you zoom 40X into pixels, you'll see it. It looks low quality.

My assumption is Poor quality in composite panels as you have described refers to air gaps in facesheet, incomplete resin infusion, over curing in autoclave, excess resin deposition, facesheet separation, face sheet wrinkles, biax layer cracks.

Now I am unable to see any of them and I wouldnt claim any unless I can do a rudementary tap test, or atleast a TG analysis for DMA, but then again, you employ thousands like me and know more...

please do enlighten me more about the TRV parameters of LM.. and please do explain how this platform in your opinion is a flight risk??

>Please explain your observations of "low quality in composites from visual inspection"

>What aspect of especially composite looks low quality to you

> What flaws have you been able to recognize in the "composites" from the image

> Explain how is the protototype a flight risk, what aspects pose flight risk, what are trv parameters for flight testing of LM/Boeing

Apparently I made a mistake by calling out the obvious as it was an INDIAN product. So of course, it had to be nothing but perfect. And now the whole India hates me. My man, once, I had the privilege to work with a structural engineer when I was in college. He looked at a structure from about 100 yards away and 50 feet below it. Looked again, then put his glasses on and told me, there are two 'hairline cracks' at 11'o clock. This structure will fail the inspection and and it should be deemed grounded.
I was looking and looking and looking....no where could I see the 'hairline crack' that he could see. And he had glasses and was about 40 years older than me, had served in Vietnam, etc. Anyway, I begged to differ as I couldn't see what he saw. I had to go up the ladder and go pretty much next to the structure to see it. And I had 20-20 vision. We left. Two days later....it was moved to structural integrity testing and then....bam, the repairs were requested....... tells me about visual inspection!!!
And yes, I can have a discussion with a used car salesman just as well as with the executives from companies like Shell and GE, etc and just as well with a doctor, the store manager and with a Scientist working with Genetics!!!
In my prior life, I've done many thing. This is the beauty of America. We don't always follow one line to be a doctor or engineer or a pilot. We start when we are 16 on our own and we end up with anything we wanted to achieve during our life's journey. Or some, just end up enjoying life. There are no weird socio-economic-cultural forces preventing us from doing what we want to do!!! That is why the US IS the land of opportunity and will always be the land of opportunity!!

Nonsense and your poor vision apart.... tell me how do claim poor quality of composites from an image? Please dont lecture about what opportunities lie in america...

 

[Viper0011.]

>Please explain your observations of "low quality in composites from visual inspection"

>What aspect of especially composite looks low quality to you

> What flaws have you been able to recognize in the "composites" from the image

> Explain how is the protototype a flight risk, what aspects pose flight risk, what are trv parameters for flight testing of LM/Boeing

Nonsense and your poor vision apart.... tell me how do claim poor quality of composites from an image? Please dont lecture about what opportunities lie in america...

Here's the answer: Please go read ALL the previous posts you and your buddies had me answer to. It's ALL in there.
@mods : I think this thread needs to be closed. It's gotten off topic, causing waste of time, disk space, bandwidth and has upset my teenager high school Indian friends, who are very young and emotional. So my apologies. I will STILL comment on the facts though!!

 

[MilSpec]

Here's the answer: Please go read ALL the previous posts you and your buddies had me answer to. It's ALL in there.
@mods : I think this thread needs to be closed. It's gotten off topic, causing waste of time, disk space, bandwidth and has upset my teenager high school Indian friends, who are very young and emotional. So my apologies. I will STILL comment on the facts though!!

As I mentioned.......Please point one post at which you have answered any question wrt to "low quality composites"

And like because your crying mods will close a thread titled"Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions"...

The whole point of this conversation was to show you there is no way of identifying quality of composite structures from visual inspection... especially from the one in question...

So next time think before you shoot your mouth!

As for as your teenager rants go, I think most of the members reading this knows who has a factual argument , and whose conjecture is hokum! So please spare yourself the embarassment of getting whipped around by the "alleged" teenager...

 

[Roybot]

Well done @sandy_3126.

 

[Sergi]

Here's the answer: Please go read ALL the previous posts you and your buddies had me answer to. It's ALL in there.
@mods : I think this thread needs to be closed. It's gotten off topic, causing waste of time, disk space, bandwidth and has upset my teenager high school Indian friends, who are very young and emotional. So my apologies. I will STILL comment on the facts though!!

Did you have a weird fantasy of teenage high schoolers ??? You are writing it again and again ???
And Oh dear...... Why are you getting emotional and calling others emotional ???
Simple thing to do is skip the thread and go to your so called non-imptional and rational threads. But you won't guess why.


BTW trolling is one thing you are not at the par with us here so don't try we are better in that

 

[Viper0011.]

BTW trolling is one thing you are not at the par with us here so don't try we are better in that

Of course you are. I've said it before, it's amazing what 1 billion emotional people connected to the internet with blinded patriotism can do!!! Trolling i.e.

 

[conworldus]

Of course you are. I've said it before, it's amazing what 1 billion emotional people connected to the internet with blinded patriotism can do!!! Trolling i.e.

100 million as of 2011.
AFP: India's online population 'tops 100 million'

 

[Sergi]

Of course you are. I've said it before, it's amazing what 1 billion emotional people connected to the internet with blinded patriotism can do!!! Trolling i.e.

Ya correct
But what about the Bolded part of my post that you choose to cut ???
Buddy you have weird affection to the word "emotional" and "teenage" that can lead to another conclusion but let it be for now ......

If you have so much problems with all the mention things .... Why are you here ??? Means common you clearly not interested in anything here. So why not just skip the thread ???
I am sure there are some other threads that might interest you in other sections... Or some other webs with your interest if know what I mean....

Let's drop it here before it get ugly. If you want to reply to the real questions kindly do it. But if you want to satisfy your earge to rant and critisize go somewhere else. in short help us by skipping this thread

 

[Viper0011.]

Ya correct
But what about the Bolded part of my post that you choose to cut ???
Buddy you have weird affection to the word "emotional" and "teenage" that can lead to another conclusion but let it be for now ......

If you have so much problems with all the mention things .... Why are you here ??? Means common you clearly not interested in anything here. So why not just skip the thread ???
Let's drop it here before it get ugly. If you want to reply to the real questions kindly do it. But if you want to satisfy your earge to rant and critisize go somewhere else. in short help us by skipping this thread

I've heard weird and creepy stories of your countrymen's affection to teen agers here in the US and in the UK. There were actually some news too not too long ago. So I'll let it pass. Second, I do have an issue with you. That is, you guys jump up in down when it comes to you. For example, the other day, I posted a link to where they talked about Hindu terrorism that has killed hundreds of thousands of people WITHIN India. But the terrorist belong to the elite ruling parties like BJP, RSS, Shiv Sena. So...you guys went Up and Down. You guys said EVERYTHING but take the blame and condemn terrorism in ALL shapes and forms. You guys scream out loud when someone does it to you but when it's a Hindu.....you guys do exactly what you are doing here. BUT condemning your countrymen for killing Christians and Muslims in cold blood, raping their women, etc. It's all on youtube and on other sites.
So similarly, here, the FACT is ONE and ONE only. The crap Russia builds for you, is lower quality. PERIOD. If the Su-30 was SUCH a great plane....there wasn't any need for India to spend billions of dollars with France. Spare me the crap about relationships and how you have so much money (after our beloved politicians donated 13 million jobs to you guys, including the ones that would otherwise have gone to servicemen coming home, but that's a different topic). So....the Russian Sh1t and the Chinese stuff is inferior in quality. The WHOLE world knows it. If you want to argue about it like a child with your buddies who can't condemn Hindu terrorism but would troll their lives away.....keep going. Again, the quality is, was and always been inferior. There is no doubt about it. The Quality Controls are also much different. If you have a different opinion about it. Sure, you can have it and troll for next ten years. It doesn't change the facts!

Last, why do I have to leave? Why don't you guys learn how to be in a productive discussion instead of anti Chinese, Pakistani, and Bangladesh rants but when your own people do terrorism and have training camps in India....you turn your eyes and act like you don't know? Condemn it. Anyway. You can write further obsessed posts to this or the mods will clean it up. I don't care. Again, the Russian and Chinese equipment is always inferior from a quality and durability's standpoint. Whoever disagrees to it, is on stuff he shouldn't be smoking. Have fun trolling!