Sukhoi-30MKI is India’s fallback fighter

[Gessler]

Yes MKI is superior, but can it escape HMDS wrath in WVR despite it's amazing manuverability ?

Manueverability is different from agility. At close ranges, Typhoon & Rafale are the most agile planes.
MKI, as per tactics, will prefer to take down enemies at BVR ranges, but it's still a great dogfighter. Case in point,
JF-17 doesn't have operational HMDS does it?

 

[shree835]

Albeit Indians like to ape it as Raptor of the East, By your idiotic assessment, does MKI comes anywhere near the F-22.....

This is your frustration, nothing more then that.

 

[Basel]

Hindi Bhai, To phir, We could say the same, Amreeki Wants to get more funding from congress,, say they had to makeup claims about Indian so called " MKI UPPER HAND"... See what i'm trying to imply here?

USAF pushed threat of improving tech from other nations like France, Russia & China to get more funding for F-22s, this is a fact, in future they may try to restart procurement of F-22s as F-35 is getting too late and expensive and rest of big aircraft making countries are trying to close the gap in tech.

 

[Gessler]

Albeit Indians like to ape it as Raptor of the East, By your idiotic assessment, does MKI comes anywhere near the F-22.....

No, but it doesn't need to either. That's a job for PAK-FA.

MKI just needs to compete with F-15, the Super MKI taking on the F-15C/Silent Eagle types as the benchmark.
Infact Su-35 already does a better job than MKI with that, although with the Super upgrade, MKI may wrest
back the title of Ultimate Flanker.

 

[Bratva]

Manueverability is different from agility. At close ranges, Typhoon & Rafale are the most agile planes.
MKI, as per tactics, will prefer to take down enemies at BVR ranges, but it's still a great dogfighter. Case in point,
JF-17 doesn't have operational HMDS does it?

Do you read my post on last page, about BVR kill probability case study? Do read it once again. At BVR ranges, Electronic jammers of PAF aircrafts would degrade BVR kill probabilty as well. At best, They would disengage, comes out of BVR zone. Not a great tactic eh?

In near future it would get COBRA HMD, trails are on going in kamra. There is a video of it where pilot testing HMD. It's not a question of what, but when. It will get it eventually !

 

[Gessler]

Do you read my post on last page, about BVR kill probability case study? Do read it once again. At BVR ranges, Electronic jammers of PAF aircrafts would degrade BVR kill probabilty as well. At best, They would disengage, comes out of BVR zone. Not a great tactic eh?

Thing is, such factors work both sides. PAF is not the only one with jammers/disruptors here, neither the one with
allegedly superior equipment. So in these circumstances, it's the 'better' plane of the two that comes out victorious.

BVR combat is the go-to tactic for any warplane of the present or future, from any country.
Jammers/countermeasures are developing, as are CCMs and still deadlier weapons. For example, an
MKI carrying K-77M BVRAAM equipped with AESA seeker takes deadly to a whole new level, as does Rafale
with Meteor in the more immediate future. These weapons are designed to defeat most present CM capabilities.

Add to that one giant-*** AESA with tech derived from PAK-FA radar, new avionics, and uprated
engines with possible supercruise capability, and you have a beast at hand.

It would be foolish to think BVR combat is dead. More so in the SContinent.

In near future it would get COBRA HMD, trails are on going in kamra. There is a video of it where pilot testing HMD. It's not a question of what, but when. It will get it eventually !

Well, then you might as well go through the stuff MKI is gonna get as part of Super-Sukhoi upgrade. HMDS included.

Until the 5th generation of fighters arrive, MKI will remain the dominant air superiority fighter in the subcontinent in one form or
the other.

 

[Bratva]

Thing is, such factors work both sides. PAF is not the only one with jammers/disruptors here, neither the one with
allegedly superior equipment. So in these circumstances, it's the 'better' plane of the two that comes out victorious.

BVR combat is the go-to tactic for any warplane of the present or future, from any country.
Jammers/countermeasures are developing, as are CCMs and still deadlier weapons. For example, an
MKI carrying K-77M BVRAAM equipped with AESA seeker takes deadly to a whole new level, as does Rafale
with Meteor in the more immediate future. These weapons are designed to defeat most present CM capabilities.

Add to that one giant-*** AESA with tech derived from PAK-FA radar, new avionics, and uprated
engines with possible supercruise capability, and you have a beast at hand.

It would be foolish to think BVR combat is dead. More so in the SContinent.



Well, then you might as well go through the stuff MKI is gonna get as part of Super-Sukhoi upgrade. HMDS included.

Until the 5th generation of fighters arrive, MKI will remain the dominant air superiority fighter in the subcontinent in one form or
the other.

Since we are about future acquisitions and scenarios, You must have heard of SD-10 B currently in it's final trial phase. Chinese BVR with dual seeker which can lock on to Electronic jammers emission incase active seeker render ineffective and has a range of 100-110 KM. Then the SD-10 C being made for J-20 and J-10 B.

It's part of JF-17 future armoury. PAF is also not sitting idly. BVR arena would be equally matched.

"Thing is, such factors work both sides. PAF is not the only one with jammers/disruptors here, neither the one with
allegedly superior equipment. So in these circumstances, it's the 'better' plane of the two that comes out victorious."

What is criteria of superior equipment when both adversary fighters would be carrying similar hi tech BVR and HMD cum HOBS missile? What is distinction of better plane than? NONE.

 

[Gessler]

Since we are about future acquisitions and scenarios, You must have heard of SD-10 B currently in it's final trial phase. Chinese BVR with dual seeker which can lock on to Electronic jammers emission incase active seeker render ineffective and has a range of 100-110 KM. Then the SD-10 C being made for J-20 and J-10 B.

Home-on jam feature existed on AMRAAMs for decades. AESA seeker on BVRAAM is the definition of future BVR
weapons. So far only one Russian and one Japanese missile are known to be developing them so far. K-77M is like
above 140km or something. But it's not just range, it's about how effective you are at that range. 64-element AESA-based seeker leaves other BVR seekers ages behind.

It's part of JF-17 future armoury. PAF is also not sitting idly. BVR arena would be equally matched.

AESA seekers are the benchmark for future BVR weapons. Meteor is enough to balance anything like SD-10B.

What is criteria of superior equipment when both adversary fighters would be carrying similar hi tech BVR and HMD cum HOBS missile? What is distinction of better plane than? NONE.

Er...no. MKI will have massive situational awareness advantage -

> MIRES AESA radar derived from PAK-FA tech with anywhere between 1,200 to 1,700 T/R, possibility of GaN.
> Side facing AESA apertures or even L-band leading edge-mounted AESAs
> Twin IRST (front and rear-looking) with QWIP tech
> Interferometry & DRFM

JF-17 (backbone of PAF until any 5th gen arrives) -

> One AESA derived from J-10B radar with between 1,000 to 1,200 T/R

Other sensors like MAWS, LWR, RWR are common to both aircraft, although MKI would be using more
mature Western equipment like the MILDS-F.

That is just the outline. About the weapons, I already stated that AESA seekers will leave conventional
BVRAAMs eating dust. You are free to google K-77M and details about AESA seekers if you want. They
are a generation ahead of conventional seekers in terms of being immune to jamming/spoofing, being
almost impossible to shake off even at 140km or more.

All this very clearly shows how MKI would remain the dominant air superiority plane in the Subcontinent. Ofcourse
PAF planes are being upgraded too, but there's no challenging MKI's superiority.

From PiBu Article on Air International and Yefim Gordon, other sources (figures may not be definitive)

K-74M --> Variant of RVV-MD for Internal carriage with folded wings
K-30 ---> New WVR A2A missile with FPA/IIR Seeker , two way Datalinks etc
K-77M ---> Upgraded variant of RVV-SD with fatter motor , AESA seeker , longer range ( ~ 145 km )
K-77ME ---> Ramjet Variant of R-77 MRAAM , Range ~ 250 km
K-37M ----> Variant of RVV-BD for Internal Carriage , Folded Wings etc
810 ------> New LRAAM under development for PAK-FA.

K-77ME has reportedly been cancelled and a new RAMJET-based missile with similar properties is
being developed. Although details are awaited.

 

[Bratva]

Home-on jam feature existed on AMRAAMs for decades. AESA seeker on BVRAAM is the definition of future BVR
weapons. So far only one Russian and one Japanese missile are known to be developing them so far. K-77M is like
above 140km or something. But it's not just range, it's about how effective you are at that range. 64-element AESA-based seeker leaves other BVR seekers ages behind.



AESA seekers are the benchmark for future BVR weapons. Meteor is enough to balance anything like SD-10B.



Er...no. MKI will have massive situational awareness advantage -

> MIRES AESA radar derived from PAK-FA tech with anywhere between 1,200 to 1,700 T/R, possibility of GaN.
> Side facing AESA apertures or even L-band leading edge-mounted AESAs
> Twin IRST (front and rear-looking) with QWIP tech
> Interferometry & DRFM

JF-17 (backbone of PAF until any 5th gen arrives) -

> One AESA derived from J-10B radar with between 1,000 to 1,200 T/R

Other sensors like MAWS, LWR, RWR are common to both aircraft, although MKI would be using more
mature Western equipment like the MILDS-F.

That is just the outline. About the weapons, I already stated that AESA seekers will leave conventional
BVRAAMs eating dust. You are free to google K-77M and details about AESA seekers if you want. They
are a generation ahead of conventional seekers in terms of being immune to jamming/spoofing, being
almost impossible to shake off even at 140km or more.

All this very clearly shows how MKI would remain the dominant air superiority plane in the Subcontinent. Ofcourse
PAF planes are being upgraded too, but there's no challenging MKI's superiority.

Are you making an assumption K-77M would be part of MKI? Cause I didn't find any source which indicates IAF is considering it. R-77 and Astra is what would be near future inventory (5-10) of IAF BVR plus meteor if Rafael arrives before 2020.

 

[Gessler]

Are you making an assumption K-77M would be part of MKI? Cause I didn't find any source which indicates IAF is considering it. R-77 and Astra is what would be near future inventory (5-10) of IAF BVR plus meteor if Rafael arrives before 2020.

K-77M is the replacement for R-77s in future. It is a confirmed weapon for PAK-FA/FGFA, but MKI might get it later. But
getting it is for certain, that's the only way forward. Unless we develop a similar missile ourselves.

Sure, Astra Mk-1/2 (80-110km) and newer R-77s are the more immediate procurements. Along with Meteor for
Rafale. I already said that before.

BTW, see my edited post above with more info.

 

[ghauri05]

If you are talking about silent eagles, we have got our own super sukhoi.

And what do you know about the electronic package of mki?

Really beautiful bird!!!

 

[Gessler]

If you are talking about silent eagles, we have got our own super sukhoi.

And what do you know about the electronic package of mki?

That is just a PS, but good work done by someone.

The real SS-MKI won't have such drastic faceting to nose or anything, but there will be significant RCS reduction.

 

[Bratva]

K-77M is the replacement for R-77s in future. It is a confirmed weapon for PAK-FA/FGFA, but MKI might get it later. But
getting it is for certain, that's the only way forward. Unless we develop a similar missile ourselves.

Sure, Astra Mk-1/2 (80-110km) and newer R-77s are the more immediate procurements. Along with Meteor for
Rafale. I already said that before.

BTW, see my edited post above with more info.

Than it becomes a matter of distant future. say 2025. A time where many things could occur/happen.

 

[Gessler]

Than it becomes a matter of distant future. say 2025. A time where many things could occur/happen.

I'm not sure about the timelines, but definitely it could be around the time when IAF inducts FGFA (~2020).

I'm showing you the roadmap.

 

[kaku1]

I'm not sure about the timelines, but definitely it could be around the time when IAF inducts FGFA (~2020).

I'm showing you the roadmap.

Not a mass production possible by 2020, maybe 2-3 per year. Mass production will only be possible by 2025.