Subsidy on Haj Issue

[Pakistani sipahi]

janab the biggest proof lies right there inside your heart. If it has blackened out, then the voice of faith stops appealing. No amount of logic can change such a person, because without faith, every logical argument has a counter-argument. There was a time when Muslim rulers took pride in servicing the fundamental tenets of Islam. If this pride is no more, then it is an indication of weakness of Iman (May Allah Protect us from such fate).

Muhtaram ,,,

The problem is that most people don't understand difference between subsidy and Facilitation . I deliberately used the term facilitation in my earlier post to clarify the meaning .

I will explain by example , for instance the airline ticket if the government provides the ticket on non-profit basis that is facilitation and if the government bares all expenses of air ticket this is subsidy .

Nobody is stopping from facilitation but the problem is in subsidy .

 

[CriticalThought]

Muhtaram ,,,

The problem is that most people don't understand difference between subsidy and Facilitation . I deliberately used the term facilitation in my earlier post to clarify the meaning .

I will explain by example , for instance the airline ticket if the government provides the ticket on non-profit basis that is facilitation and if the government bares all expenses of air ticket this is subsidy .

Nobody is stopping from facilitation but the problem is in subsidy .

How do you know what the government calls subsidy? From an investor point of view, even the profit he didn't make is a loss.

 

[Sugarcane]

Dollar was 90 in Feb last year. It is simply 140 Feb this year. The kartoots of Asad Umar and Imran Khan caused a rise in dollars price.

Exchange rate in February last year was 112 (not 90) despite that government was senselessly burning Forex reserves to keep exchange rates low, On 18 August, the exchange rate was 122 because CT government let it devalue little instead of maintaining stupidity of last government. It's at 138 now without government interference which is real value.

 

[Pakistani sipahi]

How do you know what the government calls subsidy? From an investor point of view, even the profit he didn't make is a loss.

Behas baraye behas na karein agar aap ko point samajh agaya hai to baal ki khaal na nikalein . I don't know what investors call it , if you still don't want to accept it then it is upto you.

 

[CriticalThought]

Behas baraye behas na karein agar aap ko point samajh agaya hai to baal ki khaal na nikalein . I don't know what investors call it , if you still don't want to accept it then it is upto you.

You need to understand the point. There are aspirations that Muslims have. Those aspirations see public money being used towards the fundamental tenets of Islam. If someone has issues with that, we question the state of their faith.

 

[Pakistani sipahi]

You need to understand the point. There are aspirations that Muslims have. Those aspirations see public money being used towards the fundamental tenets of Islam. If someone has issues with that, we question the state of their faith.

Brother you are mixing things , Hajj is different from other ibadaats . Hajj is an Individual Ibadat should be treated as that State can facilitate it but cannot impose financial burden on itself , the financial burden should be on the the pilgrim . Simple as that.

 

[CriticalThought]

Brother you are mixing things , Hajj is different from other ibadaats . Hajj is an Individual Ibadat should be treated as that State can facilitate it but cannot impose financial burden on itself , the financial burden should be on the the pilgrim . Simple as that.

Which authentic source says the state cannot put a burden on itself for Hajj?

 

[Pakistani sipahi]

Which authentic source says the state cannot put a burden on itself for Hajj?

Yaar Hajj aik fard(person) ki ibadat hai jis ki bunyadi shart yeh hai :

وَلِلَّهِ عَلَى النَّاسِ حِجُّ الْبَيْتِ مَنِ اسْتَطَاعَ إِلَيْهِ سَبِيلًا

Meaning:
Aur Allah ka logon par haq hai keh uskay ghar ka Hajj karay jo koi uski ki istata'at rakhta ho.

Brother jab Istata'at nahi to Hajj nahi , why put burden on state .

 

[CriticalThought]

Yaar Hajj aik fard(person) ki ibadat hai jis ki bunyadi shart yeh hai :

وَلِلَّهِ عَلَى النَّاسِ حِجُّ الْبَيْتِ مَنِ اسْتَطَاعَ إِلَيْهِ سَبِيلًا

Meaning:
Aur Allah ka logon par haq hai keh uskay ghar ka Hajj karay jo koi uski ki istata'at rakhta ho.

Brother jab Istata'at nahi to Hajj nahi , why put burden on state .

No, this is a logical jump you are making. You are playing the part of Mufti here. You have one tenet of religion: Hajj is compulsory on those who can afford it, and from there you are making the logical jump that the state shouldn't do anything for it. What if the state intervenes so that Hajj becomes affordable for more people? Which Aayah of Quran disallows that? You are creating your own ruling out of your own mind.

I mean, the fundamental requirements of Hajj include being able bodied. So you are telling me that Hajj is not compulsory on disabled people in the modern world where you have things like wheelchairs?

 

[insight-out]

Brother you are mixing things , Hajj is different from other ibadaats . Hajj is an Individual Ibadat should be treated as that State can facilitate it but cannot impose financial burden on itself , the financial burden should be on the the pilgrim . Simple as that.

You are right. Fiqh makes a distinction between fard al-ain (فرض العين) and fard al-kifayah (فرض الكفاية). The former is an individual obligation, while the latter is a communal obligation. Haj falls under fard al-ain.

As you said yourself, it is priorities. The priorities of Muslim rulers for thousands of years have been to facilitate Muslims in the fulfillment of their fundamental obligations in Islam. When you spend money for dood deeds, Allah returns it many times over. And so the priority of this irreligious, secular minded government is worldly investment at the expense of facilities for good deeds. Shame on them.

We all know the five pillars of Islam: The declaration of faith (shahadah), prayers, fasting, zakat, and haj. The last two are conditional upon one's monetary capacity.

Let us look at zakat. There are people who are not obligated to pay the zakat because they do not possess the minimum required wealth (nisab). The state is not obligated to hand out cash to people who do not meet the nisab requirement in order to make zakat obligatory upon them.

Similarly, the state is not obligated to hand out cash to people who do not meet the criteria that makes haj an obligation upon them.

 

[Rafi]

You are right. Fiqh makes a distinction between fard al-ain (فرض العين) and fard al-kifayah (فرض الكفاية). The former is an individual obligation, while the latter is a communal obligation. Haj falls under fard al-ain.



We all know the five pillars of Islam: The declaration of faith (shahadah), prayers, fasting, zakat, and haj. The last two are conditional upon one's monetary capacity.

Let us look at zakat. There are people who are not obligated to pay the zakat because they do not possess the minimum required wealth (nisab). The state is not obligated to hand out cash to people who do not meet the nisab requirement in order to make zakat obligatory upon them.

Similarly, the state is not obligated to hand out cash to people who do not meet the criteria that makes haj an obligation upon them.

Bro, stop using logic, it's very bad.

 

[insight-out]

No, this is a logical jump you are making. You are playing the part of Mufti here. You have one tenet of religion: Hajj is compulsory on those who can afford it, and from there you are making the logical jump that the state shouldn't do anything for it. What if the state intervenes so that Hajj becomes affordable for more people? Which Aayah of Quran disallows that? You are creating your own ruling out of your own mind.

I mean, the fundamental requirements of Hajj include being able bodied. So you are telling me that Hajj is not compulsory on disabled people in the modern world where you have things like wheelchairs?

There is no aayah that disallows a subsidy. And no one is arguing that it is impermissible for the state to subsidize haj. What we are saying is that the state is not obligated to do so. It is however obligated to ensure that the citizens are safe, have shelter, food, clean drinking water, etc.

And yes, haj is not obligatory on people who have a health condition that will prevent them from traveling and performing the various rituals of the haj. If they can perform the haj with the help of a wheelchair, and/or a companion, and they have the financial and physical capacity to make it happen, then it is obligatory upon them. But if they have a health condition that prevents them from performing the haj, even with a wheelchair and/or a companion, then it is not obligatory. And if they can only perform the haj with the help of a companion, but do not have the money to pay for the companion's haj (or find one who will pay for himself), then it is not obligatory on them. Its quite simple really.

Bro, stop using logic, it's very bad.

I hope that logic would appeal to "CriticalThought"

 

[Imad.Khan]

Dollar was 90 in Feb last year. It is simply 140 Feb this year. The kartoots of Asad Umar and Imran Khan caused a rise in dollars price. Haj package is straightly affected by this price hike. Subsidy issue is mere a drama. If government can eat zakat then it can also compensate the pilgrims in a better way.

It is a 100% failure of the government's team on every front.

28 Feb 2018 - $1 = Rs110.59

31st Aug 2018 - $1 = Rs122.85

May 2013 - $1 = Rs98.46

If you going to lie alteast make sure that it is believable. Dollar wasn't Rs90 even back in 2013.

The problem is that the government has acquired a liberal image and people are becoming wary of their intentions. The question is, to what lengths will they go to wipe out the Islamic characteristics if Pakistan?

To those giving arguments of Haj being Fardh on those who can afford it, let it be known that Ulema recommend giving money to others for Haj if someone has already performed their own Haj, instead of same person repeatedly going for Haj.

But here is the argument to Trump all arguments and reveal the ugly, disgusting, unislamic, black face of this government. They have money to facilitate Sikhs in Kartarpur, yet they don't have money to facilitate Muslims for Haj? Why are they governing the Islamic Republic of Pakistan? They should go govern the Sikh Republic of Khakistan and stay there. Good riddance!

Pakistan cost of Building Kartarpur corridor = $14.8Mil
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ack-Diplomacy-report/articleshow/26012997.cms

Subsidy for Hajj = Rs45000/person
Number of Hajis = 184,210
Cost of subsidy = 45000*184,210= Rs8,289,450,000 = $59.87Mil

Another thing that you are ignoring is that this subsidy was only given last year.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/426057-hajj-price-increases-by-over-60-govt-abolishes-subsidy

 

[Imad.Khan]

Here is something to think about

 

[Awan68]

Sallahudin Ayubi couldnt perform Hajj because his personal savings were not enough. What makes Pakistanis think using the state treasury for Hajj is halaal? It is absolutely haraam and i guess such a Hajj is not valid.