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Su30 MKI price

Why are you guys not asking more fundamental questions ? Why is it that you need an "OMNI role" ( w/e that means ) while the rest of the world's AF do without it ?

I bet they mean multi-role.

But rest of the air forces in the world are moving towards such aircraft. USAF plans to have 2000 F-35 and 400 F-22. These two will be the only aircraft and others will be in reserve.

IAF has way too many aircrafts for its own good. Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-27, Mig-29, Jaguar, Mirage 2000, Sukhoi-30 MKI. Thta's seven different types of aircraft already. Mig-23 or 27 has been retired but others are still flying. Mig-21s are 60s era airframes.

IAF needs immediate replacement of its vintage fleet.
 
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I bet they mean multi-role.

But rest of the air forces in the world are moving towards such aircraft. USAF plans to have 2000 F-35 and 400 F-22. These two will be the only aircraft and others will be in reserve.

IAF has way too many aircrafts for its own good. Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-27, Mig-29, Jaguar, Mirage 2000, Sukhoi-30 MKI. Thta's seven different types of aircraft already. Mig-23 or 27 has been retired but others are still flying. Mig-21s are 60s era airframes.

IAF needs immediate replacement of its vintage fleet.

The idea is to minimise the no of platforms to keep operational efficiency top class and at the same time have capabilities in all aspects. It's not about packing a single platform with everything you can think of.

Eg. F22 is out and out air-superiority and F-35 is A2G focussed. That completes what we want along with the F-18/ Growlers and F15-SEs to shore up the numbers.
 
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The idea is to minimise the no of platforms to keep operational efficiency top class and at the same time have capabilities in all aspects. It's not about packing a single platform with everything you can think of.

Eg. F22 is out and out air-superiority and F-35 is A2G focussed. That completes what we want along with the F-18/ Growlers and F15-SEs to shore up the numbers.

That is why IAF is going for MRCA. MKI is a multirole aircraft. But IAF needs specialisation instead of letting one aircraft do everything.

More numbers are required because no airforce in the world is always 100%. Aircrafts need maintenance and servicing which will deplete numbers. There will be no F-18, F-15 in USAF once the Raptors and F-35 are fully inducted.
 
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Thats debatable

Tejas MK2 still only exists on paper... Boasting about specs without ever having taken off is nonsense in aviation.

We dont have Mig 29 SMTs nor will we use them. The current IAF Mig 29s are being upgraded to UPG standard.


All of the above mentioned aircrafts multirole capabilities are nowhere near to the Rafales one.



The Rafale has capabilities which none of the other aircraft have and which are demanded by the IAF!

If the IAFs doctrine asks for a combat aircraft fleet with state of the art multirole capability instead of quantity its their choice!



m2k = Mirage 2000

Mig 29SMT = upgarded Indian Mig29s

Finally i'm not comparing Rafale with others but missions specific. Initially IAF wanted M2ks after Kargil!.
 
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Not likely,

The difference being rafale was designed from beginning as multirole system, whereas MKI is a Air Superiority fighter masquerading as a multirole system. But that in now way suggests MKI is an inferior system. Yes Rafale does bring advantage to the IAF Fleet, but the price difference between the current MKI and the Rafale is almost twice.

So can one rafale do more than two MKI's? although a loaded question, there might be rethink in getting the right price for the rafale. IAF should not be paying more than 80 million for the rafale.


Rafale is also good but thats too much money for us to afford!!! I hope India buys 150 more MKI with powerful AESA radar and RAM coatings and put rest of the money for AMCA. Also we will have less logistical nightmare.

French are famous for looting. I know they will charge more for Rafale in midway when we will implement it.
 
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Reading Ajay Shukla's Blog, one of the interesting parts that I noticed was the price at which HAL sells it's MKI to the IAF.

"HAL’s overhaul facility chief, S Subrahmanyan, told Business Standard in October 2014 that overhauling the Su-30MKI in India cost roughly one-third the price of a brand new fighter. HAL is currently supplying the fighter to the IAF at Rs 358 crore; HAL sources say overhauling a Su-30MKI costs Rs 110 crore."

Rs 358 Crore translates to 57.65 Million Dollar for each aircraft excluding the life cycle. Now 57.65 million dollars with the Overhaul costing 17 million USD, still seems to be a bargain compared to the MMRCA. By putting this price in perspective, it is apparent why the rafale bill seems so steep where the fly away cost is touching 100 million +.

Broadsword

@sancho, @Dillinger
Well the MKIs the IAF would get if they chose to fulfil the Rafale requirement through an additional MKI purchase would be the upgraded "Super" Su-30 MKIs so would cost a LOT more than $60 Million so this is a bit of a moot point anyway.
And, like you've pointed out sir, this doesn't take into account life cycle costs which is a key consideration. I've never disputed the MKI's unit price is likely to be cheaper than the Rafale's (Russian products have always been this way) BUT that counts for nought if its if cycle costs are 4-5 times this and the Rafales are 2-3 times its unit cost.

You can't just ignore the life cycle cost, relying on unit cost alone is far too simplistic and disingenuous.

Let's not forget, we STILL, don't know the unit price and the Rafale deal will be coming with a lot more than just the airframes (training, weapons, spares, infrastructure, ToT etc etc) so of course the price/airframes will be high (as are all initial purchases because you have to incur these setting up costs). The MKI's unit price is just that- it's unit price, it is not taking into account any of the above so really we are just comparing apples and oranges.

Lastly let's not forget 50% of the total deal price (around $8 Billion USD) is going to be invested back into the Indian aerospace industry and the MMRCA was about transforming the Indian aerospace industry to a large degree, an additional purchase of MKIs won't add anything to the Indian aerospace industry.

Let's play fair guys and present a holistic picture not just cherry pick the select pieces of information that suite us.

Mig 29SMT = upgarded Indian Mig29s
The designation for the Indian specific MiG-29 upgrade is UPG not SMT bro.

Thanks that 's a very valuable pearl .

this need for Medium role fighter has been over emphasized , over hyped , over advertised and India has been victim of the propaganda .

we have convinced ourselves that somehow we need the Medium category fighter ...and heavy class and light class fighters are not enough ...and sufficient for the job .

@Abingdonboy @sancho @sandy_3126 @Dillinger

Your comments please ...
Whilst I agree with the fact that "omnirole" is just marketing hype created by Dassualt, the IAF is in a situation where it DOES need a fighter to bridge the gap in capability between the LCA and MKI. A further purchase of MKIs would not only make the IAF incredibly top heavy but, as I have said before, would be a HUGE drain on the IAF's budget. Put aside life cycle costs for a moment but the undeniable fact is that for every hour in the air the MKI requires a lot more maintenance than the Rafale or most other Western fighters do. This has always been a major issue for Russian-origin products. Additionally the Rafale can go longer between overhauls, the M88 engines have a longer life span than the AL-31, the FrAF have proven they can drop out a M88 and replace it with a new one within a matter of hours, a similar job on a MKI can take a day. Western machines are designed with the user in mind and are easy to maintain, Russian products are an absolute nightmare, I've read some true horror stories of IAF ground crews trying to keep the IL-76's fly worthy and the uphill task they faced because the Il-76 just wasn't designed to be easy to maintain, contrast this with the C-17 and the difference is STARK. AOG rates of Russian products always have been far greater than their Western counterparts.

One has to contextualise it, the IAF has thrown its hat in with the MKI and yes the MKI is an awesome and deadly machine but it needs to be complimented by a reliable, (relatively) affordable and capable medium class fighter (Rafale). Now had the IAF been operating 200+ F-15SE/K's instead of the MKIs then I would be finding difficult to defend a Rafale purchase over and above more F-15s but that's not the situation the IAF faces- context is key.

A FGFA, MKI and LCA airforce is a pretty daunting prospect, on paper it would be lethal but the top end would be incredibly expensive to fly and their maintenance schedules would majorly hamper the IAF's availability rate and the lower end would hardly be a match to the growing fleet (in numbers and capabilities) of the PLAAF.


A Rafale-MKI combination is simply checkmate.
 
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Indian member discuss prices as if India is buying a car. Its not price but effectiveness and functionality that is considered for defence acquisitions.
 
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Reading Ajay Shukla's Blog, one of the interesting parts that I noticed was the price at which HAL sells it's MKI to the IAF.

"HAL’s overhaul facility chief, S Subrahmanyan, told Business Standard in October 2014 that overhauling the Su-30MKI in India cost roughly one-third the price of a brand new fighter. HAL is currently supplying the fighter to the IAF at Rs 358 crore; HAL sources say overhauling a Su-30MKI costs Rs 110 crore."

Rs 358 Crore translates to 57.65 Million Dollar for each aircraft excluding the life cycle. Now 57.65 million dollars with the Overhaul costing 17 million USD, still seems to be a bargain compared to the MMRCA. By putting this price in perspective, it is apparent why the rafale bill seems so steep where the fly away cost is touching 100 million +.

Broadsword

@sancho, @Dillinger

If it is to be MKI, then why not the original contender of MMRCA MiG 35 or maybe MiG 29 SMT/UPG, we know that platform also and they also won't add to logistics, and they fall in medium category with lesser operating cost than MKI? And we can reduce the Rafale deal by half to save money and gain ToT of a latest western design.
 
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If it is to be MKI, then why not the original contender of MMRCA MiG 35 or maybe MiG 29 SMT, we know that platform also and they also won't add to logistics, and they fall in medium category with lesser operating cost than MKI?
The MiG-35 failed to meet a number of ket technical requirements in the MMRCA race that is why.
 
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The MiG-35 failed to meet a number of ket technical requirements in the MMRCA race that is why.

Would MKI meet those requirements? No doubt Rafale and Typhoon are the best options, but since we are discussing here about the high cost of them, so I asked it.
 
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Would MKI meet those requirements? No doubt Rafale and Typhoon are the best options, but since we are discussing here about the high cost of them, so I asked it.
High unit/upfront cost of the Rafale is speculative, the MKI is hardly a cheap option.

I don't think the MKI would meet all of the criteria of the MMRCA given the lack of low-altitude terrain avoidance mode, automatic terrain-following capability or weather-mapping mode and it still hasn't got an AESA radar.
 
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Can anyone tell why does overhauling an MKI costs 1/3 of its price? Thats too much isn't it?
 
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I think people under-estimate the potency of the Mki platform. We have the American's themselves admitting that its better than their latest F-15s and F-16s. The Mki also has excellent A2G capabilities.

A large monochromatic display screen installed in the rear cockpit provides air-to-ground missile guidance. The Su-30MKI is also equipped with a N011M passive electronically scanned array radar, OLS-30 laser-optical locator system and Litening target designation pod to guide air-to-surface missile and laser guided munitions.

The air-force wouldn't be integrating the Brahmos into the Su-30 Mki, if it wasn't an excellent A2G platform. And its payload capacity is HUGE! It can carry 3 Brahmos missiles. Its an AWESOME A2G platform.

Okay fellas lets talk about maintenance. Here is the link.

Over Rs 834 crore spent on Sukhoi maintenance - Economic Times

2263 crore for the ENTIRE fleet for 3 years. Thats about $US 370 million. Say the Rafales cost half the Sukoi to maintain, we would save on an annual basis roughly $60 million. Therefore for the figures to add up we would have to operate the Rafales for 175 years to justify the extra expense. It simply does not add up.
 
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Well the MKIs the IAF would get if they chose to fulfil the Rafale requirement through an additional MKI purchase would be the upgraded "Super" Su-30 MKIs so would cost a LOT more than $60 Million so this is a bit of a moot point anyway.

Not necessarily.
Super Su30 upgrade to my understanding is upgraded Wing spar, Wing root strengthening, and axial flexural extensions to the wing skin. Apart from that i am not sure what changes to the smc would need to fire the brahmos. I am not yet aware of the radar upgrades, which most likely won't happen itll FGFA comes in, most likely both will feature the same radar.

And, like you've pointed out sir, this doesn't take into account life cycle costs which is a key consideration. I've never disputed the MKI's unit price is likely to be cheaper than the Rafale's (Russian products have always been this way) BUT that counts for nought if its if cycle costs are 4-5 times this and the Rafales are 2-3 times its unit cost.
I don't have figures on life cycle costs on MKI or Mig 29, I do not have the life cycle costs on Rafale either. 4-5, 2-3 all are just speculative numbers based on conjecture. A mil spec rivet cutter costs $29 in the US, same costs $125 in India. Labor costs of mechanic in US is around $30/hr same costs about $8/hr in India. So will rafale's life cycle cost be same in India as claimed by DB? I am not sure.

You can't just ignore the life cycle cost, relying on unit cost alone is far too simplistic and disingenuous.

Let's not forget, we STILL, don't know the unit price and the Rafale deal will be coming with a lot more than just the airframes (training, weapons, spares, infrastructure, ToT etc etc) so of course the price/airframes will be high (as are all initial purchases because you have to incur these setting up costs). The MKI's unit price is just that- it's unit price, it is not taking into account any of the above so really we are just comparing apples and oranges.

I am absolutely sure this will not include weapons package. Next important thing to realize is MKI's unit price is 57.65 million dollars with (training, Manufacturing design, Engine, spares, infrastructure, ToT etc etc) not just the list price.

Lastly let's not forget 50% of the total deal price (around $8 Billion USD) is going to be invested back into the Indian aerospace industry and the MMRCA was about transforming the Indian aerospace industry to a large degree, an additional purchase of MKIs won't add anything to the Indian aerospace industry.
Do remember that HAL is manufacturing almost the entire unit now, along with servicing the engines, upgrading the avionics, integrating indigenous Weapon systems (Astra1/2 BVR, PGM, etc) on the MKI. Now what will happen if the MKI numbers are raised from say 272 to 400? the lifecycle cost,(spares, service tech training, 1500 hr overhaul, 6000 retrofit) prices will actually come down. Also the list price of the MKI will improve for the better.


Whilst I agree with the fact that "omnirole" is just marketing hype created by Dassualt, the IAF is in a situation where it DOES need a fighter to bridge the gap in capability between the LCA and MKI. A further purchase of MKIs would not only make the IAF incredibly top heavy but, as I have said before, would be a HUGE drain on the IAF's budget. Put aside life cycle costs for a moment but the undeniable fact is that for every hour in the air the MKI requires a lot more maintenance than the Rafale or most other Western fighters do. This has always been a major issue for Russian-origin products. Additionally the Rafale can go longer between overhauls, the M88 engines have a longer life span than the AL-31, the FrAF have proven they can drop out a M88 and replace it with a new one within a matter of hours, a similar job on a MKI can take a day. Western machines are designed with the user in mind and are easy to maintain,

Some of the above, I absolutely agree with. but i would differ to the generic statement on the Russian origin aircraft, Mig21, Mi 17, are prime examples of low maintenance exceptionally rugged platforms that no western fighters of it's era could match in terms of ease of service and ruggedness

Russian products are an absolute nightmare, I've read some true horror stories of IAF ground crews trying to keep the IL-76's fly worthy and the uphill task they faced because the Il-76 just wasn't designed to be easy to maintain, contrast this with the C-17 and the difference is STARK. AOG rates of Russian products always have been far greater than their Western counterparts.

More than what meets the eye, spares for IL76 are/were primarily brought from Uzbekistan and not from Russia, due to MoD's rationale which I won't ever understand. That in my opinion has been the biggest challenge in upkeep of the Gajraj.

One has to contextualise it, the IAF has thrown its hat in with the MKI and yes the MKI is an awesome and deadly machine but it needs to be complimented by a reliable, (relatively) affordable and capable medium class fighter (Rafale). Now had the IAF been operating 200+ F-15SE/K's instead of the MKIs then I would be finding difficult to defend a Rafale purchase over and above more F-15s but that's not the situation the IAF faces- context is key.

I believe I have a different opinion here. If serviceability of the MKI is an issue, then we should be focusing on addressing the serviceability off MKI. 15 years ago, IAF wanted the Mirage 2000 or Mig 29MKI as the original MRCA stop gap,the threat protfolio has not changed drastically from last 15 years that this new need for a medium class aircraft that costs about twice the MKI and even before the selection the manufacturer is getting all uppity on integration and technology transfer. MKI for damn sure is as capable as the m2k and the m29. and rafale is absolutely capable but the not affordable. I am all for rafale as long as the price is right. We need machines to fight the threat portfolio we have, not the threat portfolio we want.



A FGFA, MKI and LCA airforce is a pretty daunting prospect, on paper it would be lethal but the top end would be incredibly expensive to fly and their maintenance schedules would majorly hamper the IAF's availability rate and the lower end would hardly be a match to the growing fleet (in numbers and capabilities) of the PLAAF.

A Rafale-MKI combination is simply checkmate.

As far as availability is concerned the entire LCA is geared to wards addressing the same, GE engine, composite airframe, MMR radar, all are geared towards reduced maintenance.
 
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By putting this price in perspective, it is apparent why the rafale bill seems so steep where the fly away cost is touching 100 million +.
Wrt to Rafales fly-away cost, check this:
'Empowered' French team likely to visit India for Rafale deal | Page 3

To the figures of the MKI, keep in mind that that's the price for the current MKI version, which is technically inferior to Rafale, while the Su 35 is estimated around $83 million for China, surely without similar ToT and offsets like the MMRCA offers.

We have a term in marketing called latent needs.

You guys were "made to realize" the need for an "ominrole" fighter all the while the world was doing well without it because of the Rafale's marketing blitz.

In the Libyan conflict, the US forces used...

...F15s for air superiority and heavy attack roles, while the French forces used Rafale
...F18 Growlers and F16CJ in SEAD roles, while the French forces used Rafale
...F16 and Sea Harriers in CAS roles, while the French forces used Rafale
...U-2's and Predator drones in reconnaissance roles, while the French forces used Rafale

But yes, omnirole is just a PR term! :rolleyes:

Trust me. No airforce needs "category" of fighters.

An still most forces use at least 2 types of fighters in different classes, to cover all operational needs. Be it F15 and F16 in the past, F22 and F35 in future, while IAF uses a 3 class mix.

The weight class hardly matters if platforms are well planned

This is true though, a twin engined medium class Rafale can be as light as a single engined F16 and both are capable enough to cover a wide range of operations.

Thanks that 's a very valuable pearl .

this need for Medium role fighter has been over emphasized , over hyped , over advertised and India has been victim of the propaganda .

we have convinced ourselves that somehow we need the Medium category fighter ...and heavy class and light class fighters are not enough ...and sufficient for the job .

If at all, India is a victum of silly planning, by going for an indigenous light class fighter development and underestimating the need of a indigenous medium class fighter. If we had gone for a M2K / F16 class fighter right away, we would had a much better hi lo mix with the MKIs and the IAF would had much more capability itself (ignoring for the moment the aims of the MMRCA competition). However, that wasn't the case and we aimed to develop a modern Mig 21 successor, for similar roles and limited potential for hi end missions. You can'do heavy strikes at long ranges and remain with good performance with a light class fighter. Most fighters in this class hardly can carry proper medium class payloads, because of the limited space and hardpoint layout. So there is no doubt about the need of a medium class fighter for IAF from an operational point of view, unless we want to dependent on the MKI and beyond 2020 on the FGFA for all high profile roles, while the LCA is limited to interception and CAS.
If that had to be Rafale or EF is another question, but that has as mentioned other reasons too, since the aim of the tender was higher than just adding a medium class fighter.
 
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