Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[Myth_buster_1]

dude you still believe that paf outclassed iaf in 71 .!

so much for your mighty IAF. they could not even destroy a single PAF isolated F-86 squadron so spare your pathological lying indian facts to BR fanboys.

do some research regarding 65 war . iaf didnt have mig-21 at that time , it only had vampires , hunters and some other jets . and yes its true that iaf lost more planes than paf but we downed more of your planes in air . !

have you even done research on your own before owning the title to tell others to do research? you are a perfect example of BR graduated delusional kid who was brain washed by half censored facts to suit fello indians ego.

IAF received its first Mig-21F-13 batch in 1963, two years before they were pitched into combat though its another story of even getting to see any action at all.

Pathankot Strike

There was some doubt in the minds of the PAF planning staff as to whether Pathankot would still be occupied by the IAF. But the force of 8 Sabres, escorted by 2 more F-86s carrying Sidewinders as top cover at 15,000 ft was fortunate. When the PAF pilots pulled up over Pathankot precisely on time at 1700 hours after a diversionary high-low approach, descending to tree-top height about 20 miles short of the border to avoid the Indian radar, they were delighted to see a large number of IAF aircraft parked around in protected dispersal pens. On the way in, with gun switches selected form 'safe' to 'fire' when crossing the frontier, the 8 Sabres in two sections of four had passed below a couple of IAF Gnats flying at about 5,000 ft without being detected.

Nosey Haider on September 6 before attack on Pathankot base.At the 1530 hours briefing for the Pathankot strike, for which no airfield photographs were unfortunately available, the plan was for each pilot to make two attacks with his six 0.5 in Browning guns, and 1,800 rounds of API (armour-piercing and incendiary) ammunition per aircraft as the sole armament. With no enemy fighters in the vicinity, however, and 'fairly thin' ground fire, 'Nosey' set the ball rolling with four carefully positioned dives from about 1,500 ft, systematically selecting individual aircraft in protected pens on the airfield for his gun attacks. He was gratified to recognise the distinctive delta-winged Mig-21s, -India's latest fighteramong the aircraft on the ground, and singled them out for special attention. As the rest of his pilots followed suit, Wing Commander Tawab flying one of the 2 top cover Sabres counted 14 fires burning on the airfield, and observed quite a bit of light flak.

Only one PAF aircraft was hit during this strike, with minor damage in the lower fuselage and wing. After their attacks, the Sabres hugged the ground for five minutes or so for their exit from the target, pulling up when clear to stretch their fuel for the return flight. Even though they had retained their drop tanks throughout the attack to get as much fuel from them as Possible most landed with less than 300 lbs left on board at the nearest airfield, which was Sargodha. This was enough for only two or three minutes of flight, and one of the Peshawar Sabres ran completely out of fuel just as it turned off the runway after landing. This sort of margin was clearly unacceptable, but on many occasions throughout the war, some Sabre pilots counted themselves fortunate if they were able to land with more than about 3-400 lbs of fuel on board. Certainly after about 80% of their wartime missions, the Sabres of 19 Squadron landed back with 300 lbs of fuel or less. Operating with this sort of margin was made possible only because of the excellent recovery procedures and instructions from the Sakesar SOC.

Pathankot Strike
8 F-86Fs of No 19 Squadron led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider struck Pathankot airfield. With carefully positioned dives and selecting each individual aircraft in their protected pens for their strafing attacks, the strike elements completed a textbook operation against Pathankot. Wing Commander M G Tawab, flying one of the two Sabres as tied escorts overhead, counted 14 wrecks burning on the airfield. Among the aircraft destroyed on the ground were nearly all of the IAFs Soviet-supplied Mig-21s till then received, none of which were seen again during the War.



some pictures from no19 squdron who participated in Pathankot strike and oh do notice that they are the same tigers who are being interviewed by BBC reporter.
and listen to his words he says something about the migs..

and you are also forgetting that IAF had total strength of 1000 combat fleet consisting of.
-Mig-21
-Hunters
-Gnats
-Su-7
-vampires

 

[messenger]

so much for your mighty IAF. they could not even destroy a single PAF isolated F-86 squadron so spare your pathological lying indian facts to BR fanboys.

just one scenario doesnt decide the fate of war . i dont know why you cant digest the fact that you were creamed by india in 71 like we lost to china in 62 and move on .

have you even done research on your own before owning the title to tell others to do research? you are a perfect example of BR graduated delusional kid who was brain washed by half censored facts to suit fello indians ego.

i get brain washed in india . dude dont start me , do something about those schools which teach students to hate hindu . its a pathetic situation . no wonder terrorism is thriving on your land . dont you think that is brainwashing .

IAF received its first Mig-21F-13 batch in 1963, two years before they were pitched into combat though its another story of even getting to see any action at all.



Pathankot Strike

Pathankot Strike
8 F-86Fs of No 19 Squadron led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider struck Pathankot airfield. With carefully positioned dives and selecting each individual aircraft in their protected pens for their strafing attacks, the strike elements completed a textbook operation against Pathankot. Wing Commander M G Tawab, flying one of the two Sabres as tied escorts overhead, counted 14 wrecks burning on the airfield. Among the aircraft destroyed on the ground were nearly all of the IAFs Soviet-supplied Mig-21s till then received, none of which were seen again during the War.



some pictures from no19 squdron who participated in Pathankot strike and oh do notice that they are the same tigers who are being interviewed by BBC reporter.
and listen to his words he says something about the migs..
PFHlzP69n9c[/media] - Pakistan Air Force Pilots of 1965 War - ??? ??????





and you are also forgetting that IAF had total strength of 1000 combat fleet consisting of.
-Mig-21
-Hunters
-Gnats
-Su-7
-vampires

i will admit all your FACTS just tell me did they tell you in school that paf had downed more planes during the 62 war .

take no offence plz .

 

[notsuperstitious]

'spare your pathological lying indian facts to BR fanboys'

PC, can you please keep this civil?

Mods, can you pls take a look.

 

[Zob]

ok messenger...plz plz plz i request u let's not get down 2 saying stuff like pakistans r a thriving terrorist nation because my friend... this is not the place to get it started honestly....if u really want to discuss all this private messge me and i shall discuss it properly in depth with u and hopefully will convince u how and WHY INDIA IS NOT SECULAR!!! let's keep it more specific and airforce related...and as for 1962 war PAF had nothing to do in 1962....we fought u in 1965!!!

 

[Munir]

If JF17 was that bad then PAF would never build and buy 250 of these birds... I don;t think we should believe armchair pilots here that much. Let me tell you that with technology like DRFM the Indian planes are pretty much useless... And we do not have to import that from USA...

 

[zombie:-)]

If JF17 was that bad then PAF would never build and buy 250 of these birds... I don;t think we should believe armchair pilots here that much. Let me tell you that with technology like DRFM the Indian planes are pretty much useless... And we do not have to import that from USA...

i presume they have to be built yet and most importantly PAF plans to upgrade it heavily even before all the planned 250 planes are built ....that speaks volumes about current jf-17s avionics ...and the engine ....the airframe might be good but avionics and engine account to more than 70% of the cost which implies their impotance in an airplane

 

[Munir]

i presume they have to be built yet and most importantly PAF plans to upgrade it heavily even before all the planned 250 planes are built ....that speaks volumes about current jf-17s avionics ...and the engine ....the airframe might be good but avionics and engine account to more than 70% of the cost which implies their impotance in an airplane

I mean, I agree that moving from f7P/PG, A5 and Mirage 3 this is a gigantic step forward but telling all the time that it is peanuts compared to MKI is a bit overdone. Let me post something about DRFM and you will understand that MKI will have almost zero tooths... And the last one will make it more vulnerable to all other Pak assets. Just have to wait some time but it will be posted.

As far as I am informed (and there is a lot more then posted on internet) the JF17 ECM is optimized against Mig29 and SU30's radar and weapons. Even without DRFM you will kow that it hurts when you cannot... The problem will be there if that fails in flight but I think that the Chinese did an outstanding job. So much that they copied it now and made it better for the J10...

 

[Muradk]

messenger
Although PC has answered your answers with facts, I think its time to go back to your IAF website and learn some more before you jump in Again in a debate. With your discussion I put you between 18 to 20. At-least know which planes were flying in which war thats a start.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

I don't even know why you guys are replying to the noobs on this thread.

 

[zombie:-)]

I mean, I agree that moving from f7P/PG, A5 and Mirage 3 this is a gigantic step forward but telling all the time that it is peanuts compared to MKI is a bit overdone. Let me post something about DRFM and you will understand that MKI will have almost zero tooths... And the last one will make it more vulnerable to all other Pak assets. Just have to wait some time but it will be posted.

As far as I am informed (and there is a lot more then posted on internet) the JF17 ECM is optimized against Mig29 and SU30's radar and weapons. Even without DRFM you will kow that it hurts when you cannot... The problem will be there if that fails in flight but I think that the Chinese did an outstanding job. So much that they copied it now and made it better for the J10...

i never said it was peanuts against MKI .....first you guys gotta induct it....train on it ...gain expertise etc..then if PAF would be able to ward off iaf for some crucial period and get the job done ..it would be more than enough for a low cost fighter ...i think it would be ideal to put jf-17s for CAP in suffeciantly large numbers till the bad boys get into air ...itll be mission acomplished for jf-17 ...seriously you cant expect it to do more than that in the present future

 

[Munir]

I promised something to post about DRFM...

>>>Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) is an electronic method for digitally capturing and retransmitting (reproducing) an RF signal. The DRFM technique ‘snoops’ and digitizes the received signals, stores it in memory, then when needed, replicates and retransmits.

Because it’s a ‘copy’ of the original signal, the attacking transmitting radar will not be able to distinguish its legitimate original return signal from the DRFM ‘copy’. Neither does DRFM generate and transmit radio jamming noise, so the ‘home-on-noise-jamming’ used by current weopons - is useless.
The real twist with DRFM, is that slight variations in frequency (phase) can be retransmitted (imbedded) by the more powerful DRFM jam signal, to create Doppler (velocity) error in the attackers receiver/seeker head. The attacking weapon may not (or can not) resolve these more powerful “false” signals (in time), the weapon will fly wide of the target – and so is defeated.

These type of DRFM signal reproduction can include snooping/creating/retransmitting distorted phase signals to confuse attacking aircraft main radar sets as well.
Core issues for DRFM may be:
• Any radio-spectrum transmission can be snooped including: beeps, squawks, data-links and digitized radio communications.
• DRFM would not be effective in the Infrared (IR) EM spectrum.
• DRFM increases need for robust Within Visual Range (WVR) capability.
• DRFM may require offering aircrews more than one type of homing technique for BVR, similar to say Vympel R-77 plus Vympel R-77T usage model.
DFRM is used on new aircraft entering service as well as being able to be fitted to existing legacy platforms (F-15, F-16 & F-18) via pods. This could be one reason that stealth is effectively absent on Grippen, Typhoon and Rafael?

Ultra-long range air breathing weapons with fully passive wide-band EM-spectrum homing (anti-radiation/emission) might be the few options remaining for BVR?
If DFRM has indeed turned the radio spectrum of the battlefield upside down, then gun-sights using IRST rather than radar might soon be an essential part of Future Firepower.

 

[Munir]

i never said it was peanuts against MKI .....first you guys gotta induct it....train on it ...gain expertise etc..then if PAF would be able to ward off iaf for some crucial period and get the job done ..it would be more than enough for a low cost fighter ...i think it would be ideal to put jf-17s for CAP in suffeciantly large numbers till the bad boys get into air ...itll be mission acomplished for jf-17 ...seriously you cant expect it to do more than that in the present future

India has showed that conventional it cannot take any chances since it has no assets to win a war in a fast way, it can have a tough conventional answer and in the end it can turn into nuclear war. But let us forget that. How many targets would the MKI go for? ow many planes would be in that pack? We do not need that many planes to defend cause we have all our ground assets in place and the MKI's are flying to us... It is not the Irac war where US had overwhelming superiority and even then it needed years to start something on the ground. Even then it lost more then a few planes and choppers. In the Pakistan - India scenario a 1-5 war will not lead to anything good for India. I refuse to accept that the MKI is a better plane when sttacking Pakistan. It has huge RCS and countering its weapons is something Pakistan is trained for. The JF17 is built for that purpose. I am pretty sure that the Mirages will not be used against it but even the PG would make the MKI sweating.

 

[maverick2009]

SU30 MKI is not a strike Plane

It is geared towards Air Superiority. Carries up to 8 air to air missles

IAF strike planes will be Jaguar & mirage 2000 Today.

In the future by the time PAF has 150+ JF17 i think the main strike planes will be MRCA. contender. (probably F18SH or Rafael)

SU30MKI will provide AIR COVER over the strike formations but i don,t think they will be bombing any targets.

Comparable match up to SU30MKI would be F16/52 or J10 wen PAF acquires these.

 

[LCA]

I promised something to post about DRFM...

>>>Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) is an electronic method for digitally capturing and retransmitting (reproducing) an RF signal. The DRFM technique ‘snoops’ and digitizes the received signals, stores it in memory, then when needed, replicates and retransmits.

Because it’s a ‘copy’ of the original signal, the attacking transmitting radar will not be able to distinguish its legitimate original return signal from the DRFM ‘copy’. Neither does DRFM generate and transmit radio jamming noise, so the ‘home-on-noise-jamming’ used by current weopons - is useless.
The real twist with DRFM, is that slight variations in frequency (phase) can be retransmitted (imbedded) by the more powerful DRFM jam signal, to create Doppler (velocity) error in the attackers receiver/seeker head. The attacking weapon may not (or can not) resolve these more powerful “false” signals (in time), the weapon will fly wide of the target – and so is defeated.

These type of DRFM signal reproduction can include snooping/creating/retransmitting distorted phase signals to confuse attacking aircraft main radar sets as well.
Core issues for DRFM may be:
• Any radio-spectrum transmission can be snooped including: beeps, squawks, data-links and digitized radio communications.
• DRFM would not be effective in the Infrared (IR) EM spectrum.
• DRFM increases need for robust Within Visual Range (WVR) capability.
• DRFM may require offering aircrews more than one type of homing technique for BVR, similar to say Vympel R-77 plus Vympel R-77T usage model.
DFRM is used on new aircraft entering service as well as being able to be fitted to existing legacy platforms (F-15, F-16 & F-18) via pods. This could be one reason that stealth is effectively absent on Grippen, Typhoon and Rafael?

Basically , DRFM technolgy used as jammer, am i right?

I don't know about JF but MKI(also mig-21,F-16) already have jammer- EL/M-8222..



Yes, it is israeli jammer and they already used this jammer in their F-15.

And do you ever heard of Electronic counter-counter measure(anti-jamming)

There are several technique included in this :

*Pulse compression
*Frequency hopping
*Sidelobe cancellation
*Polarization
*Radiation homing

I like to describe last one,Radiation homing,for you.

DRFM may require offering aircrews more than one type of homing technique for BVR, similar to say Vympel R-77 plus Vympel R-77T usage model.

The other main aspect of ECCM, is to program sensors or seekers to detect attempts at ECM and possible even to take advantage of it. For example, some modern fire-and-forget missiles like the Vympel R-77 and the AMRAAM are able to home in directly on sources of radar jamming if the jamming is too powerful to allow them to find and track the target normally. This mode, called 'home-on-jam', actually makes the missile's job easier. Some missile seekers actually target the enemy's radiation sources, and are therefore called "anti-radiation missiles" (ARM). The jamming in this case effectively becomes a beacon announcing the presence and location of the transmitter. This makes the use of such ECM a difficult decision; it may serve to obscure an exact location from a non-ARM missile, but in doing so it must emit signals which can be exploited by an ARM type missile.

So,

Let me post something about DRFM and you will understand that MKI will have almost zero tooths...

 

[LCA]

So , MKI not only have ECM (EL/M-8222) but also ECCM (R-77)