Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[macintosh]

Erieye does not have a command structure on it and you can go here as it was discussed here.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/19484-paf-vs-iaf-analysis-air-combat-over-subcontinent-17.html

 

[Zob]

or MACINTOSH....u can go hear and see it for urself... isn't that a better plan than u just saying go discuss... i guess u won't dispute the video of the MAKER right.... let me summarise EREIYE has 6 command stations....PAF suggested the idea to SAAB and the idea was a hit and guess what all ereiye systems will have 6 command stations yiippeee

 

[hj786]

dude do not talk about will be and may be.......tell wen will it be linked to Saab Erieye and KJ-200?.....besides IAF is not goin to sit ideal and watch MKI technologically surpassed.

Dude? Do not call something that is CONFIRMED by the PAF Air Chief a "maybe".

THE REASON: Bcos you guys are going ga-ga over this reversed engineered Chinese jet.
PLAFF is not inducting it because its not worth it......

Nope. It is because you are a stupid BR kid. Which jet is JF reverse engineered from? Show links and prove JF is not worth it or go back to BR.

You still need a fighter with a damned big radar to fire at stand-off ranges.

How do you know JF-17's radar cannot fire SD-10 at its maximum range?

I can never think of comparing JF-17 and SU-30MKI as both are in different leagues and while there is just first under powered batch of JF-17 available and JF-17 will be undergoing upgradations

That is debatable. When JF is backed by AEW/C, mki loses its main advantage. You talk like mki can't be shot down by JF-17 - that is impossible unless mki is a stealth fighter. BTW, how is JF under-powered when it has higher thrust to weight ratio than Mirage 2000C? So what if JF is undergoing upgrades? The current version is "pretty good" according to test pilots, I will believe them instead of you.

Saab Erieye does not have a command center...

WRONG. Saab's own video says it does...

And by this logic IAF has phalcons which are more powerful and can be datalinked to MKI.

So what? Erieye is more than powerful enough for PAF's needs.

In all this, do you assume that the Su-30MKI will remain at the level where it is right now?
The Su-30MKI will undergo MLU soon.

No, YOU assume we don't know anything by posting BS (shown by you pretending Saab 2k has no command capability). Many combat aircraft undergo MLU, not just mki.

 

[k7x]

guys.

if you fit same type of radar on both su30 and jf17 then also su30 will be more powerful than jf17..

by same type i mean (MMR,AESA,PESA....).. bcoz its not only the size of radar cone or casing that makes the thing. You need "Power" or suitable electricity generation from the engine.

JF17 is a single engine fighter . and it has a limit . where as in su 30 you have twin engine .. Now understand the power su 30 has over jf17 ....

 

[Arsalan]

guys.

if you fit same type of radar on both su30 and jf17 then also su30 will be more powerful than jf17..

by same type i mean (MMR,AESA,PESA....).. bcoz its not only the size of radar cone or casing that makes the thing. You need "Power" or suitable electricity generation from the engine.

JF17 is a single engine fighter . and it has a limit . where as in su 30 you have twin engine .. Now understand the power su 30 has over jf17 ....

but in this case what about the larger size of SU3, it surely will degrade the Su30 in this sceanario!!

 

[Owais]

guys.

if you fit same type of radar on both su30 and jf17 then also su30 will be more powerful than jf17..

by same type i mean (MMR,AESA,PESA....).. bcoz its not only the size of radar cone or casing that makes the thing. You need "Power" or suitable electricity generation from the engine.

JF17 is a single engine fighter . and it has a limit . where as in su 30 you have twin engine .. Now understand the power su 30 has over jf17 ....

and what happens if JF17 have AWAC Support?? that flying elephant have huge RCS of 10.2m2 compared to JF's <1.2m2. radar and engine power is not the only factor in A to A Combat.
so Instead of making Baseless arguments, you may need to read the whole thread from beginning so that you can understand what have been discussed here and I hope that you will find some interesting facts about both planes after reading.

 

[Contrarian]

That is debatable. When JF is backed by AEW/C, mki loses its main advantage. You talk like mki can't be shot down by JF-17 - that is impossible unless mki is a stealth fighter.

You cannot fire a missile based on an AEW&C's radar. Its the fighter's own radar that has to cue the missile.

There is no other main advantage of MKI. It has its own big radar to track a target further than the adversary and allow a BVR shot before others. It doesnt matter if it is detected or not. It was never intended to remain undetected anyway!

WRONG. Saab's own video says it does...

So what? Erieye is more than powerful enough for PAF's needs.

No, YOU assume we don't know anything by posting BS (shown by you pretending Saab 2k has no command capability).

He has wrongly used the term command capability. What he implied was data processing. What Erieye does is that its radar see's the picture, etc, etc then sends it down to a ground station, which processes the data comming in from the AWACS, ground sensors, etc, etc and processes it and fuses it all together and sends it back to the AEW&C.

Since Pakistan has ordered it in a SAAB 2000, it will have more processing capability compared to other smaller platforms on which Erieye is usually fit, or maybe the PAF has chosen to use the extra space for ELINT, etc instead of using it for processing, but it will not be an autonomous link in the air. If for example ELINT gear is installed, then again, everything detected will be sent to the ground station to be processed and the results sent back to the SAAB 2000.
This means that the AEW&C is critically dependent on the ground station.

This contrasts with Phalcon AWACS, which is a completely independent unit in the air. All the data processing and sensor fusion is done onboard. It also possess a larger radar among other things with larger number of command consoles, ELINT, EW capability.

What the video and press releases about Erieye mean by saying that it has 6 command consoles is that it has 6 operator consoles for battle and airspace management.

These are the limitations of Erieye as compared to Phalcon, however, that is irrelevant IF PAF deems it sufficient for its operations. Many a times, the best equipment is not the RIGHT equipment in a war. As long as PAF gets what it wants from this plane, it serves the purpose beautifully regardless of limitations and poses significant problems for the IAF.

Many combat aircraft undergo MLU, not just mki.

This was in reply to PC's comment that blk 1 JF-17 equal to xyz, blk 2 JF-17 equal to abc, etc, etc.

My post meant that as JF-17 evolves and gets newer sensors, as will the Su-30MKI. The Su-30 in IAF will not remain with the same sensors, radar and engines as it is now with which it is being compared.

 

[ALi Rizwan]

He has wrongly used the term command capability. What he implied was data processing. What Erieye does is that its radar see's the picture, etc, etc then sends it down to a ground station, which processes the data comming in from the AWACS, ground sensors, etc, etc and processes it and fuses it all together and sends it back to the AEW&C.

saabgroup.com

APPLICATIONS:
• AEW&C
• National security missions
• Border control
• Airborne C2 platform
• Disaster management co-ordination
• Major event security
• Emergency Air Traffic Control (ATC)

 

[Zob]

mamalymishra... as far as i know i rather call it a diffrence not a LIMITATION OF EREIYE....i hope one of the senior members can relate from my knowledge all battles in the ex soviet states and allies is done on drawing boards unlike the western style where every pilot has the liberty to take action according to there own will....so india being an ex ally of soviet union i don't think anything wrong with a system that is controlled from the ground and is not independant....

 

[zombie:-)]

and what happens if JF17 have AWAC Support?? that flying elephant have huge RCS of 10.2m2 compared to JF's <1.2m2. radar and engine power is not the only factor in A to A Combat.
so Instead of making Baseless arguments, you may need to read the whole thread from beginning so that you can understand what have been discussed here and I hope that you will find some interesting facts about both planes after reading.

sir any links for your claim of RCS of jf-17

 

[Owais]

sir any links for your claim of RCS of jf-17

chanda You my be completely in the dark about the fact that the design of JF17 is derived from F16 which have RCS of 1.2m2. it is smaller than the F-16, and hides its blades also, JF-17 has the world’s second combat aircraft to have DSI intakes. These intakes reduces one of the three major forward scatters of an aircraft that typically represents between 30%-35% of the RCS of an aircraft.

read this article. its very Informative for you.

Pakistan&#8217;s JF-17 Thunder Fighter plane: US sanctions and external existential threats forced Pakistan to go Nuclear, build missiles and develop its own indigenous Fighter jet RUPEE NEWS: Recording History, Narrating Archives, Strategic Intell

 

[Contrarian]

saabgroup.com

APPLICATIONS:
• AEW&C
• National security missions
• Border control
• Airborne C2 platform
• Disaster management co-ordination
• Major event security
• Emergency Air Traffic Control (ATC)

That implies Battle Management & Coordination.

 

[zombie:-)]

chanda You my be completely in the dark about the fact that the design of JF17 is derived from F16 which have RCS of 1.2m2. it is smaller than the F-16, and hides its blades also, JF-17 has the world’s second combat aircraft to have DSI intakes. These intakes reduces one of the three major forward scatters of an aircraft that typically represents between 30%-35% of the RCS of an aircraft.

read this article. its very Informative for you.

Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder Fighter plane: US sanctions and external existential threats forced Pakistan to go Nuclear, build missiles and develop its own indigenous Fighter jet RUPEE NEWS: Recording History, Narrating Archives, Strategic Intell

read it but it SAYS LOWER RCS NOT RCS<1.2

LET ME BE CLEAR in the airforce question thread there was a question to Mr.muradk about RAM coating on f-16 blk 52s coming to pakistan he said it was too costly stuff so you are not getting it UNDERSTAND the RCS of the f-16 you are talking might be of USAF aircraft certainly not PAF i mean to say f-16 RCS is not same all over the world.....so cant believe if you would be getting RAM coating similar to f-35 come on be practical

 

[Owais]

read it but it SAYS LOWER RCS NOT RCS<1.2

LET ME BE CLEAR in the airforce question thread there was a question to Mr.muradk about RAM coating on f-16 blk 52s coming to pakistan he said it was too costly stuff so you are not getting it UNDERSTAND the RCS of the f-16 you are talking might be of USAF aircraft certainly not PAF i mean to say f-16 RCS is not same all over the world.....so cant believe if you would be getting RAM coating similar to f-35 come on be practical

where does I mention RAM Coating??
RCS of F16 have been discussed many times on many forums its only you who is unaware about that.
OK If RCS of JF17 may not <1.2m2 but it is approximately equal to RCS of F16. because if you use logic, you may conclude that JF17 with DSI does have a reduced RCS. here is another link for you.

Situation Awareness

if you don't accept these facts, well I have no problem with the one who want to live in fool's paradise

 

[zombie:-)]

where does I mention RAM Coating??
RCS of F16 have been discussed many times on many forums its only you who is unaware about that.
OK If RCS of JF17 may not <1.2m2 but it is approximately equal to RCS of F16. because if you use logic, you may conclude that JF17 with DSI does have a reduced RCS. here is another link for you.

Situation Awareness

if you don't accept these facts, well I have no problem with the one who want to live in fool's paradise

I WILL ACCEPT FACTS

but some thing from the article abt RAM

The detection range of the Bars is (according to Janes, for a 2m squared target), 80-100 km head on. About half what was first estimated, and that assuming a 2m squared target. More probable would be a calculation for 1 meter squared target, and that is being generous, given that the JF-17 is smaller than the F-16, and hides its blades AND has RAM coating.

The lower RCS is to be reached using new materials, including advanced composites. A new RAM paint is also rumored that is said to be similar to that being used on the F-35. The nose will see comprehensive redesign and is rumored to incorporate a new AESA radar set of Chinese origin. One proposition is that the single tail is replaced with twin-tails similar to the F-35. A new DSI is also projected that will further lower RCS.

come on be serious what is the credibility of the source it cant be as good as f-35