Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[Adios Amigo]

Buddy you talk about AESA as its like some candy that you buy from a shop lol here watch these videos and then think before you compare the JF-17 with an MKI, man this thread is huge lol.

uyJzdFCnWbA[/media] - Su-30 MKI IAF In The Line Of Duty Part 1

c1DmPm1gEIg[/media] - Su-30 MKI IAF In The Line Of Duty Part 2

YMSFNHOQFy0[/media] - SU-30 MKI In The Line Of Duty part 3

It is done by timesnow which is very respected in the media so its not from zaid hamid who im sure will be able to compare a the JF-17 to the f-22 also lol

yeah ever reliable Times Now. watch this and deciede

 

[unicorn148]

jf 17 is a 4 generation aircraft where as su30mki is a 4++ generation which is far more advance than jf17 su 30 mki is the most advance plane in 4++generation aircraft even the present j10 of the chinese cant match the capabilities of su 30mki
in jf17 there is no thrust vectoring

jf17

Crew: 1
Length: 14.0 m [87] (45.9 ft)
Wingspan: 9.45 m (including 2 wingtip missiles) [87] (31 ft)
Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 24.4 m² [87] (263 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,411 kg (14,134 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,100 kg including 2× wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles [7][88] (20,062 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg [88] (28,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan
Dry thrust: 49.4 kN [3][9] (11,106 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN [3][89] (18,973 lbf)
G-limit: +8.5 g [3]
Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb) [7]
Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 [7][47] (1,191 knots, 2,205 kph)
Combat radius: 1,352 km [3] (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,000 km [9] (2,175 mi)
Service ceiling: 16,700 m [9] (54,790 ft)
Thrust/weight: 0.99 [3][7]
Armament
Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon (can be replaced with 30 mm GSh-30-2)
Hardpoints: 7 in total (4× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance,
Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm unguided rocket pods [91]

Missiles:
Air-to-air missiles:
Short range: AIM-9L/M, PL-5E, PL-9C
Beyond visual range: PL-12 / SD-10
Air-to-surface missiles:
Anti-radiation missiles
Anti-ship missiles: AM-39 Exocet
Cruise missiles: Ra'ad ALCM
Bombs:
Unguided bombs:
Mk-82, Mk-84 general purpose bombs
Matra Durandal anti-runway bomb
CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye anti-armour cluster bomb
Precision guided munitions (PGM):
GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2 laser-guided bombs
H-2, H-4 electro-optically guided,[8] LS-6 satellite-guided glide bombs [90]
Satellite-guided bombs [8]

su 30 mki


Crew: 2
Length: 21.935 m (72.97 ft)
Wingspan: 14.7 m (48.2 ft)
Height: 6.36 m (20.85 ft)
Wing area: 62.0 m² (667 ft²)
Empty weight: 18,400 kg [1] (40,565 lb)
Loaded weight: 24,900 kg (54,895 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg (85,600 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Lyulka AL-31FP turbofans with thrust vectoring, 131 kN (29,449 lbf) each
Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h) at 11,000 m (36,000 ft)
Range: 5,000 km (2,700 nmi) at altitude; (1,270 km, 690 nmi near ground level)(With Internal Fuel Tank)
Service ceiling: 17,300 m (56,800 ft)
Rate of climb: >355 m/s (70,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 401 kg/m² (98 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.07 (at loaded weight & 1.15 with 50% fuel)
Armament:
built-in single-barrel GSh-301 gun (30 mm calibre, 150 rounds)
Air to Air Missiles:
10 × R-77 (AA-12) active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km
10 × Astra active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km
6 × R-27P (AA-10C) semi-active radar guided, long range AAM 130 km
6 × R-27P (AA-10D) Infrared homing extended range version, long range AAM 120 km
2 × R-27R/AA-10A semi-active radar guided, medium range AAM,80 km
2 × R-27T (AA-10B) infrared homing seeker, medium range AAM, 70 km
6 × R-73 (AA-11) short range AAM, 30 km
3 × Novator KS-172 AAM-L 300 km/Russian air-to-air missile designed as an "AWACS killer"
Air to Surface Missiles:
2 × Kh-59ME TV guided standoff Missile, 115 km
2 × Kh-59MK Laser guided standoff Missile, 285 km
4 × Kh-35 Anti-Ship Missile, 130 km
3 × PJ-10 Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile,300 km
6 × Kh-31P/A anti-radar missile, 70 km
6 × Kh-29T/L laser guided missile, 30 km
4 × S-8 rocket pods (80 unguided rockets)
4 × S-13 rocket pods (20 unguided rockets)
Bombs:
6 × KAB-500L laser guided bombs
3 × KAB-1500L laser guided bombs
8 × FAB-500T dumb bombs
28 × OFAB-250-270 dumb bombs
32 × OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs
8 × RBK-500 cluster bombs

 

[ice_man]

yeah ever reliable Times Now. watch this and deciede nBf-5MnoBh0[/media] - JF-17 Simulator

come on this is an INDIAN propaganda besides no one will put up the JF-17 simulator in an area like that! & if you might recall the JF-17 uses an RD-93 engine the same engine that powers the indian MiG29s.....so don't watch what the indians are saying & relax mate!

 

[PakShaheen79]

PAKSHAHEEN ..you got wrong info MKI WILL NOT HAVE AN AESA RADAR IN ITS FIRST MLU.....its operating frequencies will be beefed up with a new antenna or something .....AESA WILL NOT COME UNTIL 2017-2020.....the radar upgrade programme of the mki is in two stages
1 phase new antenna ,more operating frequencies ,original frequencies will be beefed up
2 phase ...aesa radar

and this upgrade path WAS PROPOSED BY THE RUSSIANS ...and IAF has not yet decided ...so we might get a new AESA RADAR --which defenitely is the more costly option or follow the 2 phase upgrade path which is the MORE SENSIBLE OPTION

and for your question why is the USAF not conmprised completely of f-15s ...using f-15s for all the operations will be an overkill its the same with the mki...paritosh has stolen words from my mouth ;-)

i agree to this point but for security you have to go farther than you had ever gone in the present situation

My point was simple .... How depending on tech from one country is dangerous? Even big powers are doing same...though they have an argument that they are most advanced. Now if you comes with agrument that MMRCA is required due to US/Western tech as it is superior than Russians than what you will do with claim "...MKI is 2nd best fighter on planet..." (after F-22) Now all MMRCA contenders are below MKI but still India needs it at such high price.

Security in present situation.... against who. A small AF like PAF or PLAAF I think it is latter one which you meant...if so again PLAAF has nothing like MKI in its arsenal.

 

[unicorn148]

the russian have developed the aesa radar and ready to share it with india because the are jointly developing the 5th generation fighter the su 30 mki upgrade will start soon and mki will have the aesa radar and many other features which will make it more lethal

 

[SEAL]

SU-30mki is stupid.

SU-30MKI is armed with 90km BVR missile.

SU-30MKI can fly only 12-15 hours in one month and one hour flying requires at least 32 maintenance hours of work by its ground crew.

(Written by Prasun K. Sengupta indian)

Indian Air Force [Interviews & News]

 

[raveolution]

come on this is an INDIAN propaganda besides no one will put up the JF-17 simulator in an area like that! & if you might recall the JF-17 uses an RD-93 engine the same engine that powers the indian MiG29s.....so don't watch what the indians are saying & relax mate!

Iceman. The JF-17 uses RD-93, the Mig-29's use the RD-33. The RD-93 engine is a variant, designed primarily for single engined aircraft, of the original RD-33.

In 2005, Russia signed a $250 million deal with India to modernize engines for the MiG-29 fighters of the Indian Air Force. According to the terms of the deal, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will make 120 RD-33 series 3 jet engines at its Koraput plant for the upgrade of MiG-29 fighters.

The difference between these RD-33 series 3 and the RD-93 is substantial. The RD-93 on the JF-17, however is a reliable, efficient and cost effective solution as well.

 

[paritosh]

Thanks for replying.

Well, that was exactly my point that USAF who always set trends in military aviation has learned that it is unified fighter design which can make job done with minimum of effort in design, manufacture, maintain, support, upgrade rather than having 2 or 3 different platform.

the Americans have a problem with their numbers...their economy is not getting them the numbers they've always had...your point of their looking for universally applicable equipment to substitute for more than one type of armament is very valid...but it is actually a tough but a clever choice...
it's not just the navy planes that they are implementing this concept...the US IMO is using the cost-cutting and employee shelving techniques used in a company struggling to make profits...they are trying to slowly get planes that act as force multipliers even in small numbers...their tech advancement allows them to do so...
it is said that the raptor can take out battle groups on it's own with at most the need of a good AWACS link...so inducting a F-22 would save maintenance costs which would have incurred had the USAF inducted say F-16s...doesn't mean that the F-16 is a bad plane now does it?
I would not entirely agree that the future is with the usage of single very capable aircrafts that can be used in different battle configurations...

their tech advancement allows them the freedom to include the best in one fighter...
while the other countries trail...for example...generally it is considered that a navy plane should be double-engined for increased range operating over high-seas....now the JSF is single engined and has a greater range and combat radius than the F-18SH which is a twin-engined plane...
the Su-30 mki has it's own problems...it needs a relatively larger landing strip...when compared to the mig-29 and the LCA...and all our current and under construction /ac carriers haven't got a sizable landing strip.
Su-30 mki also has a large RCS...we'd definitely want different a/cs with different RCSs if we can't afford one VLO or stealth a/c...
but the trend is changing fast...with manufacturers making different versions of the same aircrafts...take rafale...saab...LM...they have different versions of the same a/c...
see the IAF/IN is still third world...and we have dedicated a/cs for different areas...an ELINT a/c would be stuffed with electronic equipment and have lesser armament...
while an interceptor would be a single engined high speed chaser with large AAMs...
an air-superiority would have a capable BVR capability....now we are following the trend...LCA has a naval version as well...which has a more powerful airframe...it's a start and shows our recognition of the changing trend...but countries like india,Russia and China and all other would still have some time before they stick to planes that have very little chance of being shot down...to do all their work.
your orginal qn was the need of the MRCA contract...well the mig-21s make up the bulk of our airforce...they are obsolete by most standards..we need a better plane...a 4.5 gen would be the best...the mig-29 are very good but are still 4 th gen...and so are the mirages...and thye are quite few in numbers...
the MRCA winner and the SU-30 mki would represent the IAf in the future...
you must have also noticed tenders for heavy bombers and airlift platforms..and the development of the LCH...and the acquisition of the AWACS...we are bent on using dedicated single role a/cs...and the MR in MRCA might well be a misnomer...

I am talking about FUTURE not PRESENT or PAST. So future lies with unified platform with multiple configuration (real fruit of true Mulitirole).. I believe MKI is complete multirole fighter which can easily configured with Air,Land and Sea op configurations. Now what MMRCA will server that MKI can't.

we need to fill in the gap fast...the migs are not getting younger and keeping all eggs in one basket wouldn't help India as it did not help you in the past...even if we go for the mig-35 we'd show that we are capable of buying stuff from the west also....and it's the quality that matters and not loyalty.
also as long as the MKI can be shot down...we'd not want our whole a/f to have MKIs only....for
a)a single fault in them would jeopardize our entire fleet
b)it'd give them ruskies and the execs at rosborneexport unprecedented power on us

That's what i am asking because MKI is not a dedicated bomber nor it is a dedicated air dominance thing but it is a huge beast able to take on anyrole carrying all kind of weapons.

so it is an air-dominance fighter...if it can carry a large amount of weapons and of various kinds...it has a PESA radar albeit the most powerful PESA(well the Bars is only superseded by the Irbis and I think we are getting the Irbis now) and a very large RCS...it can't be the first a/c to go into battle deep into enemy lines...it might be very difficult to kill by other a/cs but an easy target for most SAM systems...

"real implication of the contract...." What are those?

well the political ones...I am lazying away from the prospect of having to elaborate on them...but we can discuss them if it is needed..but I guess you mgiht already understand the political implications of the massive 10 billion dollar contract...

 

[raveolution]

SU-30mki is stupid.

SU-30MKI is armed with 90km BVR missile.

SU-30MKI can fly only 12-15 hours in one month and one hour flying requires at least 32 maintenance hours of work by its ground crew.

(Written by Prasun K. Sengupta indian)

Indian Air Force [Interviews & News]

True. What a absolute 3rd grade aircraft this stupid Sukhoi-30 MKI is.

The fact that it has consistently performed alongside the best air-forces in the world means absolutely bull****. It's based on the SU-27 series which has sold more than 700 aircraft and the SU-30 itself has sold around 400 aircraft. Which mentally challenged person runs these Air-forces. The Chinese PLAAF are also morons to use this aircraft. The J-11b, which is on the wishlist of the PAF is also a copy of this aircraft. So they also have no brains.

When an MKI meets the enemy in battle, it should immediately disengage and the pilot should eject because the plane requires 32 hours of maintenance, which clearly the IAF can't manage therefore he should save his life before his powerful radar, suberb engines, western avionics and 20,000 kgs of weapons all explode in one big fireball.

Seriously, someone is living is his own decadent world. Mods please don't delete this post. A stupid statement deserves a stupid reply like this.

 

[raveolution]

My point was simple .... How depending on tech from one country is dangerous? Even big powers are doing same...though they have an argument that they are most advanced. Now if you comes with agrument that MMRCA is required due to US/Western tech as it is superior than Russians than what you will do with claim "...MKI is 2nd best fighter on planet..." (after F-22) Now all MMRCA contenders are below MKI but still India needs it at such high price.

Security in present situation.... against who. A small AF like PAF or PLAAF I think it is latter one which you meant...if so again PLAAF has nothing like MKI in its arsenal.

Good post PakShaheen. When India purchased the MKI, technologies such as AESA radars, Supercruise engines, etc were not available. Also the price of a SU-30 MKI in 1999 figures will differ greatly from the MRCA price in 2010 figures. Plus the fact that Russian aircraft prices are generally 50-70% of western options. The deal is that both the MKI and the MRCA will be a frontline aircraft in the IAF till 2030 atleast. The MKI in its current form will be equal to or marginally less capable than the MRCA, which will come with latest tech. After its MLU, the SU-30 MKI will again takeover as the most potent fighter, barring the FGFA, as and when that gets inducted.

 

[unicorn148]

every aircraft of fourt and fifth generation requires such heavy maintenance even the j11 of chinese have same probs and not only these each and every advance fighter plane needs such heavy maintenance so no need to feel bad about su 30 mki

 

[desiman]

Man this thread is getting really stupid now, no matter what you tell people they wont agree, this is a totally stupid comparison and is basically demeaning the MKI. The JF-17 is nothing but a cheap alternative for countries that cannot afford actual 4.5 generation aircrafts and also incorporates some modern features to at least make it competitive enough against modern air forces. The MKI on the other hand is custom made, air dominance beast fitted with the latest Russian, western, Israeli and Indian tech. Constantly rated among the best in the world, The MKI is by far the best jet in this region. I dont have any blind love for the MKI but the way it be being ridiculed here is totally absurd, please read some facts about it before you start comparing. As a fellow member pointed out before also the JF-17 is an out dated design originally derived from the tiger shark as we all know how good the Chinese are in reverse engineering and copying others. The MKI is derived from the very successful su-27 series and builds on that. Just because it has thunder attached to its name does not mean it will go and compete with an MKI which is miles ahead. And please dont tell me that the JF-17 will get this or get that, nothing is confirmed as of yet and its all speculation till now. The fact is that right now in its current state the jf-17 is best compared to the mig-29 (maybe) but comparing it to the MKI is nothing but a joke and a fanboys dream.

 

[IceCold]

Man this thread is getting really stupid now, no matter what you tell people they wont agree, this is a totally stupid comparison and is basically demeaning the MKI. The JF-17 is nothing but a cheap alternative for countries that cannot afford actual 4.5 generation aircrafts and also incorporates some modern features to at least make it competitive enough against modern air forces. The MKI on the other hand is custom made, air dominance beast fitted with the latest Russian, western, Israeli and Indian tech. Constantly rated among the best in the world, The MKI is by far the best jet in this region. I dont have any blind love for the MKI but the way it be being ridiculed here is totally absurd, please read some facts about it before you start comparing. As a fellow member pointed out before also the JF-17 is an out dated design originally derived from the tiger shark as we all know how good the Chinese are in reverse engineering and copying others. The MKI is derived from the very successful su-27 series and builds on that. Just because it has thunder attached to its name does not mean it will go me that the JF-17 will get this or get that, nothing is confirmed as of yet and its all speculation till now. The fact is that right now in itand compete with an MKI which is miles ahead. And please dont tell s current state the jf-17 is best compared to the mig-29 (maybe) but comparing it to the MKI is nothing but a joke and a fanboys dream.

You know whats even more stupid is that avatar of yours.Add your nick to that and there we have the ultimate stupidity.

 

[desiman]

You know whats even more stupid is that avatar of yours.Add your nick to that and there we have the ultimate stupidity.

LOL ya get personal now that makes so much sense, buddy try to keep it professional and please keep away from personal comments. Jis shool ke tum bache ho beta us school ke hum principal hai lol stay cool mate

 

[hj786]

....the JF-17 is... originally derived from the tiger shark as we all know how good the Chinese are in reverse engineering and copying others.

Keep proving how little you know.

Mikoyan joins Chengdu on fighter-21/06/1995-Flight International

DATE:21/06/95
SOURCE:Flight International
Mikoyan joins Chengdu on fighter

CHENGDU AIRCRAFT (CAC) has teamed with Mikoyan MAPO to design and produce a new single-engine fighter to replace China's now defunct Super-7 project

The FC-1 is being developed as a private venture funded by CAC, China National Aero-Technology Import and Export (CATIC) and Pakistan. The aircraft is aimed principally at the export market, with the Pakistan air force expected to be the initial user.

CATIC is pushing for support from Aviation Industries of China (AVIC) and is confident of selling the lightweight fighter to China's PLA air force.

The aircraft has been under development since 1991, and is now in the detailed design phase. Two partial forward- and rear- fuselage mock-ups have been completed. A single-seat prototype is scheduled for a first flight in 1997. A two-seat aircraft is also planned.

Production is due to start in 1999 at CAC. Pakistan Aeronautical Complex will initially, produce parts for the FC-1 and is discussing the establishment, of a second production line.

Mikoyan is providing design support and has seconded a team of engineers to CAC. The aircraft resembles an earlier Mikoyan design given the internal designation MiG-33. The design, developed in the early 1980s, was intended as a light dogfight aircraft.

The FC-1 has been designed around the 80kN (18,300lb)-thrust Klimov RD-93 turbofan. The engine is an improved modular development of the RD-33 engine, which was also intended to power the MiG-33.

The FC-1 design, however, differs with adoption of twin side-mounted air intakes. Liyang Machinery of Guizhou, plans to produce the RD-93 under licence in China.

It will feature seven hard-points, including wingtip pylons for PL-7/10 short-range air-to-air missiles. A pulse Doppler multi-role radar has yet to be selected. Pakistan is expected to make a decision on its own avionics suite and weapon system within three to five months.

And please dont tell me that the JF-17 will get this or get that, nothing is confirmed as of yet and its all speculation till now.

So lets see:
- The designer/manufacturer's website contains nothing but speculation, even though it is the designer/manufacturer's website.
- The articles published by Air Forces Monthly are nothing but speculation, even the ones that quote PAF officials.
- The articles written by Usman Ansari are nothing but speculation, despite the following:

he began to contribute to UK publications as a freelance journalist mainly to the UK based naval news monthly Warships – International Fleet Review for which he was made the Chief Analyst in 2006. In his capacity as a correspondent and Chief Analyst for Warships – IFR Usman has covered amongst other things the 2005 International Fleet Review off Portsmouth from HMS Cardiff, and the following the International Festival of the Sea; the preparations of HMS Chatham to deploy to the Falkland Islands; and Op Aquila, the deployment of the British strike carrier HMS Illustrious, destroyer HMS Gloucester, and the fleet auxiliary RFA Fort Victoria in the Indian Ocean; the bi-annual Pakistani defence show IDEAS2006; and the international naval exercise AMAN-07 held off the coast of Pakistan.

Usman has also contributed to Classic Military Vehicle, Military Machines International, Combat Aircraft, Land Rover World, Air Forces Monthly, and 4x4.

Usman has been based in Pakistan since 2006, and continues to contribute to various publications as well as explore avenues for creative writing and photography. He became the 'Pakistan Correspondent' for Defense News in October 2008, and rather unexpectedly, 'Pakistan Correspondent' for 4x4 around the same time covering the 2008 off road rally season.

read some facts about it before you start comparing.

I've posted plenty of facts here, its just that you and your ignorant pals are blind to them. It's funny how you guys call me a fanboy for posting evidence with my claims, quite pathetic really.