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Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

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HJ786

you talk about a FC20 as cutting edge which won,t arrive in PAF until 2015.

You claim it will have canards for extreme agility and phassed array radar..

Thats great wen these 36 planes arrive in 2015.

Yet SU30MKI x 5 SQDS have Canards TVC & Bars radar here and now. The best part of 100 planes.

In 2015 THE ENTIRE MKI programmed will have finished. Tranch3 of the SU30MKI IS A Ibris Aesa equipped mki with a KH172 ramjet missle.

Do you honestly believe the next 140 mki are going to be identical to the first 100..

haha u are a funny guy.. i agree that without shadow of dough MKI is supirior to JF-17 but it does not mean MKI is invincible.. JF-17 with BVR missile Plus AEW will be a pain in @ss for MKIs which will be IAF front line fighter for the next 2 decades.
You like a small hearted fanboy that you are tend to believe in fantasy lists.. At the moment IAF only operates 55 MKIs and it will be a feat for HAL to produce 100 in 5 years let alone meet 220 or so goal by 2015 just becasue they say so:lol:... HAL like a fanboy they are they tend to spread romurs about their plans which never ever meets the deadlines.. prime example are Arjun and LCA. and lol fanboy.. it will take aleast 10-15 years for atleast 25-50 MKI to be upgraded to next tranch.. but since u are a fanboy you are most welcome to be deluded and believe in your own list.
 
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haha u are a funny guy.. i agree that without shadow of dough MKI is supirior to JF-17 but it does not mean MKI is invincible.. JF-17 with BVR missile Plus AEW will be a pain in @ss for MKIs which will be IAF front line fighter for the next 2 decades.
You like a small hearted fanboy that you are tend to believe in fantasy lists.. At the moment IAF only operates 55 MKIs and it will be a feat for HAL to produce 100 in 5 years let alone meet 220 or so goal by 2015 just becasue they say so:lol:... HAL like a fanboy they are they tend to spread romurs about their plans which never ever meets the deadlines.. prime example are Arjun and LCA. and lol fanboy.. it will take aleast 10-15 years for atleast 25-50 MKI to be upgraded to next tranch.. but since u are a fanboy you are most welcome to be deluded and believe in your own list.
i simply cannot unnderstand what makes them beleive at there figures!! they point fingers at pakistan poducing 30 JF per year regardless of the fact that it will be produced both in china and pakistan incereasing the numbers to 35 -40 planes per year! on the other hand they think that DRDO will be able to produce 20 MLIs per year regardless of the fact that india have only been able to induct 50 planes since there induction started years back!

anyway i am very happy about the DRDO going to produce the MKI locally because with the word DRDO the other word that pops up in mind in FIALED!!! so i hope it will be the same with DRDO MKIs as it was with lots of other indian military projects!!
regards!
 
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JF-17 with BVR missile Plus AEW will be a pain in @ss for MKIs

JF-17 will be more then that which they dont understand because they thought that their so called mighty SU-30MKI is some sort of their GOD in between their lot's of GOD's you name it. Many of those.
 
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JF-17 will be more then that which they dont understand because they thought that their so called mighty SU-30MKI is some sort of their GOD in between their lot's of GOD's you name it. Many of those.
No, because all FACTS are clearly speaking in favour of the Mki if you compare it one on one!
Just read the last several post and you read about JF 17 with BVR missile and AEW support, upgraded JF 17, J10 with AESA, hj786 even listed up half of PAF to compete Mki. The Mki is not invisible, nor the greatest fighter on earth, but in this region it is one of, or maybe the most capable fighter at the moment. That will only change if China and you might get J10B with AESA radar, or if we get the first squad of MMRCA (which should be earlier). And if that happen you will see the same posts, some will talk about lower RCS and low costs, others about greater numbers and ramjets, or again about future upgrades and 5. gen fighters. You will always find something to complain about Mki if you really want, but still at present and one on one the Mki is superior against JF 17!
 
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haha u are a funny guy.. i agree that without shadow of dough MKI is supirior to JF-17 but it does not mean MKI is invincible.. JF-17 with BVR missile Plus AEW will be a pain in @ss for MKIs which will be IAF front line fighter for the next 2 decades.
You like a small hearted fanboy that you are tend to believe in fantasy lists.. At the moment IAF only operates 55 MKIs and it will be a feat for HAL to produce 100 in 5 years let alone meet 220 or so goal by 2015 just becasue they say so:lol:... HAL like a fanboy they are they tend to spread romurs about their plans which never ever meets the deadlines.. prime example are Arjun and LCA. and lol fanboy.. it will take aleast 10-15 years for atleast 25-50 MKI to be upgraded to next tranch.. but since u are a fanboy you are most welcome to be deluded and believe in your own list.

Yar why are you spoiling his dreams, They can have 300 or 400 MKI's wouldn't matter much, Pakistan's missile tech is way advanced for some Indians to think.
 
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mm hmm

the only missiles pakistan can make are ballistic missiles, that's it.

drdo has designed SUCCESSFUL abm missiles, an aam, a sam (akash), a top attack anti tank, and agni iii mrbm, on top of they isro has designed gslv, and pslv with the gslv mk iii on its way which can carry 4? tons to leo.

yes there have been failures arjun and trishul to name a few, but i wouldn't call lca a failure it actually has higher performance (in terms of engine power) than the jf-17 but that wasn't good enough and their standard in performance is a bit higher so it will take some time to get a new engine. also the lca DOES have an aesa the stockholm peace instutite reported that 5 elta 2052 aesa radars were ordered for the lca.

also even if production is scaled up to 40 a year by 2012, u still wont have 250 by 2015.

thats because for the 1st 2-3 years you'll only produce 20 or so than production can be ramped up.

by 2015 at max 190 jf-17s.
 
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The DRDO is our best friend cause they produce zero. And even if they do... We do not mind. As Murad said... Pak tech has more then most would predict. The Babur, Ra'ad and many other BM are just the top of it... Pak had copied Matra Magic that well that French engineers could not tell the difference. We talk about decades ago.

About JF17... Well, I have told you more then once... They wil have mulitple production lines in China. So the numbers will be realistic and not based on bollywood logic like you are used to.
 
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No, because all FACTS are clearly speaking in favour of the Mki if you compare it one on one!
The facts state that 1v1, the JF has every chance at BVR when supported by an AEWC. The helmet-mounted sights mean it has every chance WVR. If you guys aren't interested in facts, what can I do?


Just read the last several post and you read about JF 17 with BVR missile and AEW support, upgraded JF 17, J10 with AESA, hj786 even listed up half of PAF to compete Mki.
Actually I've been listing 250 JF and AEWC to compete with MKI and that's with the current specification as per the PAC website, no upgrades. You're so desperate you're putting words in my mouth?


The Mki is not invisible, nor the greatest fighter on earth, but in this region it is one of, or maybe the most capable fighter at the moment. That will only change if China and you might get J10B with AESA radar, or if we get the first squad of MMRCA (which should be earlier). And if that happen you will see the same posts, some will talk about lower RCS and low costs, others about greater numbers and ramjets, or again about future upgrades and 5. gen fighters. You will always find something to complain about Mki if you really want, but still at present and one on one the Mki is superior against JF 17!
Doesn't matter to me, it will never fight 1v1 against MKI.

mm hmm
the only missiles pakistan can make are ballistic missiles, that's it.
drdo has designed SUCCESSFUL abm missiles, an aam, a sam (akash), a top attack anti tank, and agni iii mrbm, on top of they isro has designed gslv, and pslv with the gslv mk iii on its way which can carry 4? tons to leo.
yes there have been failures arjun and trishul to name a few, but i wouldn't call lca a failure it actually has higher performance (in terms of engine power) than the jf-17 but that wasn't good enough and their standard in performance is a bit higher so it will take some time to get a new engine. also the lca DOES have an aesa the stockholm peace instutite reported that 5 elta 2052 aesa radars were ordered for the lca.
also even if production is scaled up to 40 a year by 2012, u still wont have 250 by 2015.
thats because for the 1st 2-3 years you'll only produce 20 or so than production can be ramped up.
by 2015 at max 190 jf-17s.
This know-it-all must be the PAF Chief Of Air Staff or something.

Telling a combat veteran who was chosen by PAF to evaluate the F-16 and Mirage 2000, what types of missiles his country can develop. That's just funny.
 
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Thus far Pakistan have ordered 42 JF17 for definite.

There is a loan arrangement of $650m for PAF to buy these from China.

This is a follow on from 8 prototypes that are currently going thru IOC.

Recently a PAF spokesman suggested the first PAF JF17 wil,be raised by the year end 2009 early 2010.

All these other posts of 250 JF17 with western radar and weapons a new engine and AESA etc are threads started on this forum..

Whislt i appreciate that JF17 like LCA SU30MKI or Typhoon. wil have different tranches with each tranche improving on the other what i don,t see happening is the time line being suggested of 250 JF17 by 2015.

If the JF17 is being treated as a true 4TH GENERATION FIGHTER as some claim it is ... Then it can,t be built or acquired in the nos suggested so quickly. Let me explain the argument.

Even the first basic 42 JF17 are coming via soft loans. Where will PAF find enuf funds to buy 250 IN 5 YEARS.

Secondly if the next batch of 50 are to incorporate new engine radar and weapons surely this will take time to intergrate and test before induction. Yet again thev cost issue is also to be factored.

What about the infrastucture and pilots to support these planes . The workshops. JF17 is currently relying on a Russian engine we all know how they take their time delivering hardware/spares/ Ask the indians...

The chinease are asking for 5 years to deliver a improved FC20 for PAF and 36 of these will arrive by 2015. thats 6 years to deliver 36 planes.

Su30mki entered service in 2003. In 2009 we have barely 90 SU30MKI in SERVICE. despite both Russia & india delivering them now. It will take 10 possibly 12 years to deliver 230 planes from 2004.

The Typhoon and i live in UK so i know as barely touched 40 planes. This in 3 years.
I can see why PEOPLE say 250 JF17 by 2014 ITS TO COUNTER the 230 SU30MKI by 2014. But SU30MKI programme started 5 years ago. JF17 will start 2010..

Its takes time to fully build air bases, workshops, license production, tranche improvements and lots and lots of money.

UK France India have between them 10 to 5 times the air force budgets of PAF yet they struggle to induct more than 10 planes per year. The reasons i have listed above.
 
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yes not even china can build 20 jf-17s a year, they have their own af to worry about.

they are also building j-10s, j-11s, and other a/c for their af i dont think they have time for 20 jf-17s.

also they have been known to cut corners to get that cheap 15 million dollar cost, its not all just labour the skin could be thinner, less rivets, cheaper canopy, cheaper electronics, etc...

so its better to build in ur own country than china which i believe will be done.

if u want proof of this

Foreign Policy: The Top 10 Stories You Missed in 2008

Shanghai's steel fails basic tests​
Shanghai’s futuristic skyline—the city has more than 900 high-rises, with hundreds more under construction—is one of the most potent symbols of China’s economic rise. But the materials undergirding all that growth might be shakier than anyone can imagine. In March, the English-language Shanghai Daily reported that fully half of the steel sold to construction companies in Shanghai’s wholesale markets failed basic quality tests. Nearly a quarter of the tested samples failed tension tests, meaning structures built with them would not be able to withstand earthquakes and would be more likely to decay over time.

Of the 52 batches of steel tested by the Shanghai Industrial and Commercial Administrative Bureau, 27 were too light to meet China’s legal standards. Some batches were nearly five times lighter than the legal standard, meaning that they were less than the weight of iron, steel’s primary ingredient. “If your steel is less than the weight of iron, that’s pretty incredible,” says Christopher Earls, professor of civil engineering at Cornell University. “That means you’re replacing the iron with something else, so what you have isn’t really steel at all.”

The bureau ordered construction sites using the inferior steel to halt work, but, troublingly, did not publicly reveal where it was being used. Adam Minter, a Shanghai-based journalist who blogged the story after it broke, asked, “What will happen to twenty-year home mortgages taken out on Shanghai apartments which will only last—structurally—for ten years? At some point, I’m pretty sure this is going to become an issue.” After the collapse of substandard schoolhouses during this year’s Sichuan earthquake, tremors of which were felt in Shanghai, the prospect of something similar happening to an urban high-rise isn’t an issue anyone should take lightly.

and this was in skyscrapers in shanghai where 100s of thousands of people live.
 
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The facts state that 1v1, the JF has every chance at BVR when supported by an AEWC. The helmet-mounted sights mean it has every chance WVR. If you guys aren't interested in facts, what can I do?
Try to understand that this is a fighter vs fighter comparison, not a fighter plus added this and that, just to let the JF 17 look a bit better comparison. And even if you do so, you have to add it on both sides and you will see that it still remains inferior. The Mki has also AWACS support, it has BVR missiles with longer range and can carry more of them, the Mki provides more power to the EWS to jam missiles. These are FACTS!
Compare facts that are given now and not anytime in future, compare it equal with all capabilities on both side not only in favour for JF 17, otherwise you will also look like a fanboy.

I said it often enough, the JF 17 seems to be (it's not operational and not all capabilities are ready yet) a good fighter (against Mig 21 and 27, Jags, Mirage 2k and LCA mk 1), but it will remain BEHIND F16 block 52 and J10 when it comes to capabilities. So a comparison of PAFs and IAFs most capable fighters would make much more sense!
Actually I've been listing 250 JF and AEWC to compete with MKI and that's with the current specification as per the PAC website, no upgrades. You're so desperate you're putting words in my mouth?
Why you always post things first and deny them later?
Wrong. By 2015 PAF, according to an interview with the PAF COAS, PAF will have: ~46 F-16AM and 18 F-16C/D armed with AIM-120C5, at least 36 FC-20 and ~240 JF-17 (upgraded). That's ~340 medium and high tech. fighters data-linked to 4 Erieye + 4 ZDK03 AEWC and refuelled by 4 IL-78. Plus ~50 F-7PG interceptors armed with AIM-9M.
Oh and if the war in SWAT doesn't go to America's liking, PAF will replace ~64 F-16 with FC-20. PAF's high tech. requirement is 150 aircraft, to be fulfilled by F-16 and FC-20. Whether its 150 FC-20 or 150 F-16 and FC-20, these high tech fighters alone could defend against 230 flankers.
So as you can see (again), I don't have to put anything in your mouth and denying his own words instead of arguing is what I would call desperate.
 
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That would make a lot of sense. Couz clearly, JF cannot take down MKI based on 1 on 1. However, maybe on a lucky day, it may happen as you cannot say anything about what may happen, considering the pilot, missles, ECM etc.

I wouldnt say lock the thread, it still has some value.
 
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