SU-30 Deterrence

[blain2]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jan 9 2006, 08:40 PM
Miro is right, and so is Tiger shark. F-16 equiped with the right radar and missiles will give any flanker out there a very hard time. But as miro said. PAF is'nt getting any of that stuff, so i would say the favor is in IAF's hand. Mig-29s however are'nt much of a match since F-16 can see it and kill it right out of the skies, but in a dogfight. Mig-29 has the upper hand sicne it's one of the most mounverable jets out there and will out mounver any western fighter out there.

But then again like i said in a another thread before, alot of things happen in the war. You might see F-16's vs mig-21s or F-16's vs MKI's. A F-16 vs a SAM or a Mirage vs anti air craft guns.

[post=5257]Quoted post[/post]​

Mig-29 is not really more manueverable at all altitudes against the F-16. There are certain flight regimes in which F-16 performs better than Mig-29 and in others the Fulcrum performs better. Avionics wise, IAF Mig-29s do not even come close to the MLU F-16s let alone the blk52s.

Also this impression about PAF not getting this or that with the F-16s is incorrect. It is simply a matter of what PAF can afford in terms of ancillaries and weapons from the US. The underlying deal with the F-16 is that PAF would get what they wanted with their order and the US would be forthcoming. Otherwise PAF would not pay $45 mil/ac if they cannot get the JDAM capability. AMRAAM and AIM-9x is available with older blks MLU'd F-16 as well. Keep that in mind.

 

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by Salmaan@Jan 20 2006, 10:59 AM
The radar detection range of a Su-30 MKI is far greater than a Block-52 F-16 (140-160 kms). Even an LCA can match a Block-52 F-16 in terms of avionics. The MMR of LCA is said to have a range of 100+ kms.

It would be better to compare an F-15 to the Su-30 MKI.

[post=5532]Quoted post[/post]​

"Size does not matter"- Anonymous

As for LCA, its radar has the detection range of about 80KM and is knowere in terms of matching with the F-16 Block-52 Avionics. The LCA can be compared with the very first version of the F-16(f-16A block10). As for F-16 vs. SU-30MKI, Time will tell.

 

[Salmaan]

Originally posted by Kaiser@Jan 20 2006, 09:41 PM
As for LCA, its radar has the detection range of about 80KM and is knowere in terms of matching with the F-16 Block-52 Avionics.

The LCA's radar has range of over 100+ kms.

Link:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=33634

The post of Jai can be refered to. His links are not dated (especially the "lecture" link), thats why I have provided the forum link.
That the radar has 100+ range has also been confirmed by many BRF members who are insiders.

The only difference between the LCA and the Block 60 F-16 is the presence of AESA radar in the latter.

The FBW system of the LCA is quadruplex as compared to the triplex system in the F-16.
The LCA's HUD also meets international standards. It is noiseless as it does not need cooling.

For detailed avionics of the LCA, one can refer to this site:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/lca.htm

 

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by Salmaan@Jan 21 2006, 03:27 PM
The LCA's radar has range of over 100+ kms.

Link:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=33634

The post of Jai can be refered to. His links are not dated (especially the "lecture" link), thats why I have provided the forum link.
That the radar has 100+ range has also been confirmed by many BRF members who are insiders.

The only difference between the LCA and the Block 60 F-16 is the presence of AESA radar in the latter.

The FBW system of the LCA is quadruplex as compared to the triplex system in the F-16.
The LCA's HUD also meets international standards. It is noiseless as it does not need cooling.

For detailed avionics of the LCA, one can refer to this site:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/lca.htm

[post=5550]Quoted post[/post]​

Dude providing a link to another forum doesn't mean anything, the people on that forum are talking about the LCA being better than the EUROFIGHTER :buck: .The LCA is the smallest fighter in the world, smaller than the f-16, smaller than the JF-17, its even smaller than the Gripen.So there is no way in hell the LCA is going to have a Radar with 100+ Range .For a Radar that big you would need a nose thats 800+MM (F-15,SU-27,SU-30).FBW is not necassary to all fightersbut,fighters with unstable deisgns such as the Gripen,F-16,Mirage 2000, etc... need it,FBW is not a huge technology.If Pakistan wanted then they could have gave the JF-17 full Quadruplex FBW but, it wasnt necassary since JF-17's deisgn is very stable.The avionics on the LCA are nowhere near that of F-16 (any version) or any other western fighter.I would rate the LCA is the class of the F-5E.

The LCA used a russian radar that is 600- MM and has the range of about 80KM.

 

[melb4aust]

LCA is better than Eurofighter LOL, :stupid: those people are crazy :crazy2: . Some times these guys make me laugh. I wouldnt rate the LCA to the class F-5E, it could be alot more better than that, but people who are saying its better than typhoon, F16 or grippens, they can make anything. this is some thing like comparing a Brand new Ferrari to Suzuki Alto.

In a dog fight if there is any fighter aircraft who can give tough time to F16 i guess its only mig 29. Su-30 is modern aircraft with avionics mostly supporting BVR combats. In that case F-16 has an edge as it is modified for BVR as well. and has a good track record in dogfight. In WVR combat pilot skills can make a difference, on the other hand in BVR combat its the radar that can make a diff. Its really hard to compare 1 aircraft to the aircraft. Each aircraft has its own features and avionics to fulfill different purposes, so i guess there is no need to smack our heads agianst the wall :wall: for such comparisons. There are alot other people in this world to worry about such things like those in that forum which was mentioned by my fellow member Salmaan.

 

[Salmaan]

Originally posted by Kaiser@Jan 22 2006, 05:49 PM
Dude providing a link to another forum doesn't mean anything,

I have mentioned earlier that the "lecture" link of Jai's post is not working, otherwise that source would have been provided instead of a forum discussion.

It has been acknowledged that the radar range of the LCA is over 100 kms. It has been teted on the Avro trainer aircraft, and is expected to be integrated into the LCA.

The LCA is the smallest fighter in the world, smaller than the f-16, smaller than the JF-17, its even smaller than the Gripen.So there is no way in hell the LCA is going to have a Radar with 100+ Range .For a Radar that big you would need a nose thats 800+MM (F-15,SU-27,SU-30).

The nose of the LCA is larger than that of the JF-17. The pictures of the LCA may be reffered to. It can be seen that it has a large nose.

If Pakistan wanted then they could have gave the JF-17 full Quadruplex FBW but, it wasnt necassary since JF-17's deisgn is very stable.

According to various news reports, many design changes remain on the JF-17, and is first 4 prototypes shall be produced this year. DSI intakes were also installed to
improve the design.

The JF-17 has FBW in the yaw-axis, as pointed by WebMaster. As of now, FBW is a neccessity compared to mechanical controls, as pilot workload is reduced.
All major aircraft employ FBW technology in triplex or quadruplex.

The avionics on the LCA are nowhere near that of F-16 (any version) or any other western fighter.I would rate the LCA is the class of the F-5E.

The avionics of the LCA are upto international standards.

The following link shows the view of the LCA cockpit at Aero India 2003:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread92266/pg5

The LCA used a russian radar that is 600- MM and has the range of about 80KM.

This radar shall be used incase the integration of the indigenous radar is not successful. It is similar to the usage of the GE-404 ngines since the Kaveri has not been developed.

 

[Kaiser]

I have mentioned earlier that the "lecture" link of Jai's post is not working, otherwise that source would have been provided instead of a forum discussion

Yeah, and the last thing I would wanna hear is a lecture from a Indian talking about the LCA being better than the Eurofighter!!!

It has been acknowledged that the radar range of the LCA is over 100 kms. It has been teted on the Avro trainer aircraft, and is expected to be integrated into the LCA.

Enough ranting Give me a link.Your just one of those helpless indians who daydream about the LCA being better than the F-16.

The nose of the LCA is larger than that of the JF-17. The pictures of the LCA may be reffered to. It can be seen that it has a large nose.

Here we go again...The LCA is a small fighter (the smallest in the world) Whereby the Thunder is a medium sized fighter!!! It is not easy (if not impossible) to fit a 100+ KM radar onto a small fighter!!! As I have said the LCA will use a Russian made radar (-550 MM) know thats really, really small.The JF-17 will either use the french radar used on the mirage-2000 or the Grifo s-7 (both 600MM).

According to various news reports, many design changes remain on the JF-17, and is first 4 prototypes shall be produced this year. DSI intakes were also installed to
improve the design.

Yeah and once we induct the Thunder we'll have another fighter thats better than the LCA

The JF-17 has FBW in the yaw-axis, as pointed by WebMaster. As of now, FBW is a neccessity compared to mechanical controls, as pilot workload is reduced.
All major aircraft employ FBW technology in triplex or quadruplex.
The avionics of the LCA are upto international standards.

LOL...International!!! Your so called LCA cant meet to HAL's standard yet alone India's (even though 3/4 of the LCA's components were imported from other nations)! Thats why it has gone through hundreds of modifications in the last 20 years but, still not made, now isnt that discraceful!

The following link shows the view of the LCA cockpit at Aero India 2003:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread92266/pg5
This radar shall be used incase the integration of the indigenous radar is not successful. It is similar to the usage of the GE-404 ngines since the Kaveri has not been developed.

[post=5588]Quoted post[/post]​

LOL! Now your giving me a link to a sitr wich belive that China will take over the world So know you guys are also developing a indigenous radar, I bet its going to end up as your other Indigenous achievments!

Here's a challenge, prove me wrong that more than 3/4 of the LCA's components were imported from other nations (Engine from US, Avionics from Russia). Until then CIAO

 

[Salmaan]

I think I commited a mistake by taking the discussion to the LCA whereas this thread is about the Su-30 vs F-16.
We may discuss the LCA in another thread started by melb4aust.

The Su-30 MKI shall have an advantage with respect to F-16 in WVR combat, since it has smaller turn-radius, has capability of nearly stopping and turning [ due to TVC ] and some other kinds of manoeuvers.

If combat between the F-16 and Su-30 MKI takes place without AWAC support, the SU-30 MKI shall detect the F-16 at range of upto 140 kms.
The RCS of a Su-30 MKI is 4^m, upon usage of RAM coating.

The EW suite of the Su-30 MKI is also very effective, as described by Miroslav.One can refer to his post about it.
One ca also refer to the engaging capabilities of the N011M bars radar of the Su-30 MKI. These are likely to be superior to the F-16.

Regarding weapons, the AMRAAM an the AiM-9x are extremely accurate weapons of the F-16. But, it is widely claimed by Russian sources that the R-77 adder, R-73 Archer and R-27 Aphid are equally effective. That they have not been tested in combat is the negative point about them.

 

[Zeeshan S.]

Salman i admire your post, but indeed you shouldn't have included LCA in this topic, and some shouldn't have go with your post instead they should have ignored you.

Regarding the topic, well everything is possible in the war but there are some advantages of advanced aircrafts. If we are just comparing the two aircrafts Su-30 and F-16 Block 50 its might be ok, though both aircrafts shouldn't be discussed as they are for different roles, though for the sake of discussion as they will both be the main aircrafts from the both sides fighting one another we may discuss.

Su-30 might have the advantage of detecting F-16 before it detects Su-30, but when involvement of AWACs come the factor goes down, because now F-16 no need to use its own radar rather the one AWACs is using. This gives F-16 an edge over Su-30 as even though Su-30 will be a very menuverable aircraft but its huge RCS will kill it, with the advantage of F-16 like the superb advance weapons like AMRAAM, AIM-120 C, i doubt Su-30 even going back to its base, unless dependent on other factors.

R-77 adder and R-73 might be good weapons, but aren't much effective as many claim. The same thing goes with PL-12 (SD-10) it is not effective either. AIM-9X is the most effective weapon as of now, and the others are similar to it, but lack some of the effectiveness.

 

[Sharjeel]

Originally posted by mysterious@Jan 25 2006, 04:14 AM
Salman i admire your post, but indeed you shouldn't have included LCA in this topic, and some shouldn't have go with your post instead they should have ignored you.

Regarding the topic, well everything is possible in the war but there are some advantages of advanced aircrafts. If we are just comparing the two aircrafts Su-30 and F-16 Block 50 its might be ok, though both aircrafts shouldn't be discussed as they are for different roles, though for the sake of discussion as they will both be the main aircrafts from the both sides fighting one another we may discuss.

Su-30 might have the advantage of detecting F-16 before it detects Su-30, but when involvement of AWACs come the factor goes down, because now F-16 no need to use its own radar rather the one AWACs is using. This gives F-16 an edge over Su-30 as even though Su-30 will be a very menuverable aircraft but its huge RCS will kill it, with the advantage of F-16 like the superb advance weapons like AMRAAM, AIM-120 C, i doubt Su-30 even going back to its base, unless dependent on other factors.

R-77 adder and R-73 might be good weapons, but aren't much effective as many claim. The same thing goes with PL-12 (SD-10) it is not effective either. AIM-9X is the most effective weapon as of now, and the others are similar to it, but lack some of the effectiveness.

[post=5623]Quoted post[/post]​

like you say the f16 uses the awacs to spot...it can also be fed data via the PAF digital C41. all the radars in pakistan both in air and on the ground will contribute to this data...thus any indian armour, aircraft etc will be visible on the situational display onboard all PAF aircraft...


russains measure their radar range against larget targets then the americans so the f16s own radar is not as lame as it seems....


in regards to the missiles. god knows as they have not been pitted against each another. the only sure way to be sure is to pit them against each another in a real combat scenario. a lot of other things come into play when in combat...

 

[Salmaan]

It is true that the usage of AWACs shall nullify the advantages of the Su-30 MKI's radar over the radar of the F-16.

The acquisition of Phalcon AWACs with the IAF shall also nullify the advantage of the Erieye AWACs that PAF shall acquire.

There shall also be an an encrypted data link for combat information exchange between aircraft; and command guidance from ground control stations using automatic interception mode.

 

[Tariq Iqbal]

Originally posted by Salmaan@Jan 25 2006, 07:00 AM
It is true that the usage of AWACs shall nullify the advantages of the Su-30 MKI's radar over the radar of the F-16.

The acquisition of Phalcon AWACs with the IAF shall also nullify the advantage of the Erieye AWACs that PAF shall acquire.

There shall also be an an encrypted data link for combat information exchange between aircraft; and command guidance from ground control stations using automatic interception mode.

[post=5632]Quoted post[/post]​

Yes indeed, how is IAF planning to do the data link?

 

[SyedF]

Indian Fighter Copies Costlier Than Russian Originals

By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, NEW DELHI, India
Posted 05/19/06 09:52

A federal watchdog May 19 blasted Indian military plane-makers for spending more on copying Russian-made Sukhoi fighter jets than it would cost to buy them.

Some of the copied Sukhoi-30MKI interceptors are also flying without critical airborne systems, the Controller-Auditor General (CAG) said in a hard-hitting report about India’s military hardware manufacturers.

Moscow allowed New Delhi to locally build Sukhois in the late 1990s as part of a bilateral pact to save India using up foreign exchange reserves.

But the national watchdog said the deal had turned into a futile exercise, especially with India’s once low foreign exchange reserves now brimming thanks to strong foreign investment.

”The indigenous manufacture of the Russian frontline fighters is working out to cost more than imports,” it said in a report published in parliament.

”The total cost of 140 (Sukhoi) aircraft projected by the defense ministry four years ago was $4.91 billion at the 2000 price level but in a project report in 2005 the amount has been shown as $8.71 billion.

”This is an almost a 100 percent price rise,” the watchdog said, rapping India’s largest aircraft manufacturer, the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautical, Ltd for the astronomical cost overrun.

The report did not say how much it would cost to buy the Sukhoi aircraft from Russia.

The air force, which has acquired around 30 Sukhois from India’s largest armament supplier, is on an ambitious drive to expand its inventory with latest imports as well as locally-assembled versions of British and French war jets of its fleet.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1812883&C=asiapac

 

[Munir]

I agree that we should compare 1v1 woth certai parameters. Let us indeed move LCA versus JF17. But do nto forget. If after 3 decades and lots of consultancy, imported parts and dreams the plane is not even up to the average standard then we should not make it holy. LCA is a nice mig21 replacement but it is small and we have to see what it will become. Sofar it is just assmebled parts that ar enot accepted and IAF rather looks at more Jaguars or other foreign planes. The nose seize is not even important cause the have not selected radar or weapons and with interlinks and stealth that part is less worth.

 

[jaman_thakkar]

How can you ppl compare LCA and FC-1???both r not yet even in service...maybe FC-1 will join first to service but there is no way you can compare it with LCA.India has an access to all the western advanced stuff to put on LCA.whereas for FC-1 only china is the source.Chinese tecnology is not so good in comaprison of russian,americans or europeans.because these nations r in this field from decades...how can be chinese first plane will be on par with the western tech?china still depends on russia for so many things.they have long road yet to cross.