Stop maligning the military

[muse]

If you find that narrative persuasive, good and fine -- as you read the "New Pakistani Nationalism" piece, did you note what this new nationalism was informed by?

It is a product of the very realities that the old nationalism helped produce.

Baap jo apni aulaad ko nahi pehjaantah?

 

[53fd]

There is no old or new nationalism. Nationalism in Pakistan was never India-centric, it has always centered around Islam. I have mentioned this in detail in Post # 359. Pakistan is the same amount of India-centric as India is Pakistan-centric. I say this with great conviction, as a son of Indian parents born in Pakistan. I envision Pakistan as a moderate Islamic state that it's always been in its history.

 

[53fd]

There is a difference between the Pakistan Army's central policy & Pakistan's national identity. While the Pakistan Army has always been India & Kashmir centric, Pakistan's national identity has not. For good reason too. Just as the Indian Army has been Pakistan & Kashmir centric as well, deploying almost 800,000 troops in Kashmir alone. Just wanted to make that clarification.

 

[Xeric]

Xeric, you seem to be a good person, thank you for serving our country with honesty and hard work, I salute you for that! Keep up the good work.

Now on the topic at hand, I agree with you to a certain extent, but I have big problem with people (not pointing finger at you) who call civilians as C-class, jahils, gawars and whatnot, I am completely against this kind of behavior, how can we expect others to respect us if we don't respect each other.

The point I will like to make is that you’re comparing the best (Army employees) with the worse (Government employees). My friend, Pakistan has more than fifty million civilian workforce, and only a fraction of them work for the Government, most of them work in rural areas, in privately owned companies or are self employed.

Agricultural workers have to endure hard work, low pay, and no health benefits, they perform strenuous work outdoors in cold and hot weather (temperature can reach as high as 50c, 122F), and let’s not forget how important is their work for our country's food security.

I have many relatives and friends who work for privately run companies like Pearl continental , Nestle, Rafhan, UniLever, ICI, Dewan Salman, Wateen Telecom, World Call Telecom, MCB Bank, KASB Bank (there are thousands of companies like these), they can’t go late or take leave without some solid reasons, and have to complete their work efficiently, effectively and on-time, and at times have to work extra hours and not even get paid, I can go on and on, but the bottom line is, that they have to work very hard to keep their jobs, as there’s no free lunch. The same can be said for the self employed, they also have to work their bu tts off to make ends meet, and if they don’t, they can starve, because there is no welfare system for the civilians in our country.

Farther more, there are approximately five to six million hard working Pakistanis living abroad, remitting six to seven billion dollars to Pakistan annually. Trust me, in foreign countries, money doesn't grow on trees, we really have to work very hard to earn it.

The bottom line is that we civilians work as hard as our compatriots in the Army.

I have nothing further to say on this topic.

Cheers!

Na na..

You got me wrong.

i can assure you that i would be the last person who would belittle the civilians. i am not part of the group who consider you people the 'bloody civilians'. Speaking frankly i am at war with such people, inside or outside the Army. No one is superior or otherwise. But at the same time i am a strong believer of the principle that 'you get what you have leaned for' and that 'her insan ki izzat us kay apnay hath mai hoti hai'. See, i dont do any physical activity and then i complain of obscenity, i dont study hard and then i blame the system for grading me poorly, i cant perform guud in an interview and i then blame the board for asking difficult questions. This doesnt happen in my world! To me, nothing is impossible, believe me, if you want to get something or achieve a certain goal, come what may, you would be successful provided you have the guts to bear the odds. Yesterday i was watching a news report i dont on Geo or ARY where they were showing young kids in schools who complained about the load shedding because of which they cant study properly. Though i sympathized with them but my second thought was, when the odds are against you, it is then when you can show your true potential. If all is goodie goodie then any tommy, dicky and harry can succeed.

i dont know why, but that's how i think. May be because i have seen hardships or people with hardship? i would like to quote you a real example here. When i was in my 10th grade i like any other would seek more luxury as a prerequisite for a proper study. i had my father installed a separate AC in my room, i had the best lighting inside my study, during exams i would get everything at my table starting from food to clothings etc etc. But then everything changed, one day my father informed me about daily wager who worked under him. The guy was an old man, probably in his early 50s, his wife had died long back ago and had 5 children. The eldest one of my age, rather he was a class senior to me. My father told me that the boy has scored 90% marks in matric and that i should feel shame. Not that i was a bad student, but may be my father's exceptions were quite high. The guys was studying in one of the thingar schools of Karachi, he had to walk like 10 km to reach his school because couldnt afford a bus ride. He had been collecting papers from the kabaria so that he can practice his math on them as he couldnt afford a rough register and so on and so forth. So, i having been 'insulted' happened to investigate the issue. i somehow got his address and reached his house to meet him. And what happened next left a grave mark on my life.

His house, or should i call it a small compound consisting of one room, a small kitchen like room and a single bathroom was located at nasty place. i introduced myself to him. Surprisingly he knew me. We then went inside, the one room housed his entire world. Beddings scattered everywhere and his books piled up in a corner. We had a talk and thereafter i visited him for a few more times. And this is his story that i would like to share with you people; His father was suffering from TB, he could hardly work one job. He wanted to work too but his father was more interested in educating him so he decided to study. His mother was dead so he being the eldest had to bear the burden of grooming and feeding his siblings. His father could hardly move so it was he who would cook for the family. In routine the guy would get up at 5 in the morning, make breakfast for his brother and sisters who were between the age of 4-13. He would then take them to school by walk and then he would also go to his school. He would come back at 3, his siblings awaiting him at home. He would then cook lunch for them. His father would come back at around 5 and then he would feed him. He would clean the dishes, wash the cloth of the entire family and service the 'house'. He would study in between. At night he would again cook dinner and wind up the dishes and then again he would study. Off and on he would take his father to the hospital. He would also do the grocery and other chores. So in short he would a brother, a father, a mother, a servant and a door keeper, all in one. Still he studied without any tuition and stuff and managed to shame people around him. The first i met him, he was wearing the same old brown colored shalwar kamiz, and the last time i met him, he was wearing the same cloths. His slippers were not torn but they were all roughed out at bottom and i am sure he would have felt the pebbles when he walked. His school books were either borrowed or bought second hand. His practice 'register' was just a collection of one-sided papers that are discarded out and he had that one ever famous Dollar fountain pen to write with. With all this, he still met glory! When i completed my Fsc he was in NED University doing engineering, i joined the Army then and today he's an executive in a multinational company.

So do you expect me to 'respect' hud harams in this society?!

i know and it's my bad that i generalized the 'civilians'. i always wanted to demarcate the civilians working in the private sector. My target always have been those working in the public sector. But i think i couldnt word it. i know you cant think of being late in a Bank, i know that the private enterprises as some of those you have mentioned are stricter than the military at times, why? Because they pay you well and screw you accordingly - they always mean business. They select the best and then put them to work while making sure that they get their money's worth. Same holds guud for any other hard worker expect those hud harams who have brought down this country to such a shabby condition. My indication is towards the sarkari mulazimeen. Now again, i shouldnt be generalizing every govt official, but we have to accept the fact that the majority sucks. Here, aik or cheez yaad agye mujhy, i remember a story (or two) a friend of mine in police told me. Once a chaudary saab in some village was robbed. During the armed robbery a few shots were fired by the daciots. Thereafter they fled. Meanwhile an ASI happened to be on patrol far away, but he was near enough to hear the shots. While he was resting in his mobile smoking that cigarette he informed his constable that i think we should check this one out. The constable saab as usual said, 'sir jee rehnay dain, pindan thawan vich fair tey hunday he rehanday nay', but the ASI insisted by saying; 'nai yaar, paka fire lagta hai tu nikal mobile', let's check it. Now even before the chaudary saab could have informed police the police was already in 'harkat'. The ASI intuitively had wirlessed the pulce chowkis along that one fringging road (we all know how's the road infrastructure around our villages) and himself drove to the direction of the firing. on reaching there the entire mohallah was out of their homes because of the robbery. He ASI now having confirmed his fears re-wirelessed about the robbery and guess what, they robbers were caught at the very next chowki!! The ASI's 'proper working' had saved the day!

One more, a pulcia standing at a signal saw a guy on a motorbike. When the signal turned green the biker tried a wheely and fell down. The police wala first tried to ignore the dude, but then decided to go ask the idiot. On seeing the policia coming towards him the biker left his bike and ran away leaving a surprised pulcia behind. He picked the bike and then took it to the thana. On checking it was revealed that the bike had been snatched a few days back in a neighboring district!!! The bike was then returned to the owner.

So in short, if we had worked for may be like 10%, Pakistan would have been a better place today!!

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

How do you think Kayani and Pasha got their extensions?

You are talking about extensions and my source was telling me this about Kayani at the time of becoming the COAS... that he received approval/clearance from some of the highest ranking official places within America...

This is why I have always been cautious about Kayani... The Army however is not just Kayani and his extension is a clear indication that Americans are struggling to setup new puppets within this institution... I was watching the Israeli PM's interview yesterday and he clearly states that they dread the day when Iran gets the A Bomb or when Pakistan has ideological Muslims in power (Taliban was such a pathetic term that he used to represent that... lol)

If the Army wants to improve its image amongst people, they need to get rid of people as top brass who are worried about America's image inside Pakistan...

and keep a sharp look on the bank accounts of the Army leaders...

 

[VCheng]

...and keep a sharp look on the bank accounts of the Army leaders...

LOL! The nation is several decades late and several billion dollars short already!

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

LOL! The nation is several decades late and several billion dollars short already!

Never too late to mend whats broken...

 

[khurasaan1]

You are talking about extensions and my source was telling me this about Kayani at the time of becoming the COAS... that he received approval/clearance from some of the highest ranking official places within America...

QUOTE]

Yes! ure right cuz he got clearance from CIA....
and he also got the highest US military award from Pentagon , when he beacome COAS and visited US first or second time.....The one they give to US Army general s...who do a great sacrifice for the country...
Thats why he serving the US brilliantly...

 

[RazorMC]

As I see it, there are several hundreds of thousands of people in the Pak Army alone.
It is natural for some of them to be pro-US or anti-US. It is not appropriate to call someone a US-agent. cimply because we have our own opinion regarding the US policies. Who knows, cooperating with the US might be part of his/her plan to benefit Pakistan in the long-term.

For those supportiing the current govt, please go through numerous WikiLeaks documents regarding our President. A few of them state him requesting for a free-trade deal with the US so that he can prolong his tenure in the Presidency. Who wants the extensions? Who is making deals: Kayani or Zardari? Who says we haven't got the tech to strike the drones: Kayani or R.Malik?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

As I see it, there are several hundreds of thousands of people in the Pak Army alone.
It is natural for some of them to be pro-US or anti-US. It is not appropriate to call someone a US-agent. cimply because we have our own opinion regarding the US policies. Who knows, cooperating with the US might be part of his/her plan to benefit Pakistan in the long-term.

For those supportiing the current govt, please go through numerous WikiLeaks documents regarding our President. A few of them state him requesting for a free-trade deal with the US so that he can prolong his tenure in the Presidency. Who wants the extensions? Who is making deals: Kayani or Zardari? Who says we haven't got the tech to strike the drones: Kayani or R.Malik?

Its not as simple as you would like to think... If Wikileaks documents are any proof then they actually state that Kayani is worried about the negative American image within Pakistan... and a pro US stance in this day and age when America's real face has been exposed to the whole world in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is enough for a verdict of guilty... (specifically in their dealing with Muslims... as America has been brutal towards the Communists before... i.e American brutality is nothing new)... AND just because someone opposes America's imperliasm... its neocon neocolonialist fascism... does nt mean that they are anti US...

If Kayani and Pasha dont want extentions then they should not have accepted extentions... There is no deficiency of talent within our Army... why do these two have to continue serving??

and lastly its not good enough to state that they are doing something because they have the best interest of Pakistan in their hearts BECAUSE what they are doing is upsetting the population, creating law and order problems and placing the Army in negative light... we have heard Musharaf's Pakistan first slogans and what he did after that... "because the Americans were threatening to bomb us into stone age"... if one finds himself between a rock and a hard place, its best to resign and let someone with better capabilities take the lead...

Just how are these constant drone attacks that are killing numerous innocent Pakistanis... in the best interest of Pakistan??

Khair... I strongly believe that there shall be better times... inshaAllah... Everyone has to play its role... be it the Army or civilians or the Pakistani diaspora like ourselves...

 

[khurasaan1]

Yes ! they shold not get extensions...let the juniorz come up and do something good for the Army and country....They r not so exceptionalz....Every person is brilliant in the Army...I guess they got political backup from US thats why they got extensionz....Its a damn shame...trying to make Army their slaves....They should follow the Army rules...They didnt perform good so we dont need them...we just need young blood there...

 

[RazorMC]

But cooperation is one thing and agreeing to everything the US does is another.
The US has to work on its foreign policy esp. towards Muslims, but we are unfortunately indebted to them and need their military hardware. Our current govt. and economic system will never allow us to get rid of this bondage.
The military has done a lot for the country, but let's not see every soldier in the same light as former Pres. Musharraf. We've all seen the kind of modernization he preached.

 

[aatayyab]

military has "NOTHING" to do with Pakistnai politics now.

 

[SparklingCrescent]

Here it is guys, this pretty much summarizes my opinion:

Pakistan would be much more stable if without the US military intervention.

For this to happen, the culture of the Pakistan military services will have to be changed - and thus far, it is clear that the Pakistan military does not recognize her culture as a problem that needs to be reviewed and reformed.

Where as the relationship with China, especially the military relationship is based on helping Pakistan military help itself, the relationship with the West is based on military aid, not a help with sustaining the armed forces with hardware but on aid predicated on the agreement that the Pakistan army will be the mercenary of the West and her Arab Satraps -- this agreement is unsustainable and the quicker the Pakistan military services can see the light or be made to see the light, the quicker and easier the transition to stability.

Perfect Muse.

Alright. I'm out of this thread. call me what ever you guys want.

 

[somebozo]

Pakistan is gradually falling under the secretation sword of safvid which is evident from the promotion tensions since this zardari government has come to power..To achieve the goal the army which holds itself as a coherent force of society shall be constantly demonized until it loses all favourable public opnion.