Stop claiming you're either Arab or Persian or Turk!!!

[Mr Happy]

When persecution of prophets lineage begins, they mostly migrated from Arab land. What do you think about Mohammad bin Qasim who came to Sindh for what?
You cannot put all Syeds into the same category. Because you have a mixed ancestory like chaat cholay chana papri doesn't means that all are same. Sorry for what i said Just.

Even during Arab conquest of Persia, Persians still kept their own unique language and traditions. So in a sense, you could make the case that Persians heavily resisted being ruled by anyone else by being fiercely independent. Similar story is true for Turks although Persians have been around longer than the Seljuks and Ottomans.

Generally, I agree with you. Well, the Achaemenid empire dates back to approximately the 6th century BCE.

 

[SABRE]

Even during Arab conquest of Persia, Persians still kept their own unique language and traditions. So in a sense, you could make the case that Persians heavily resisted being ruled by anyone else by being fiercely independent. Similar story is true for Turks although Persians have been around longer than the Seljuks and Ottomans.

Maintenance of cultural and linguistic identity is different from the maintenance of sovereignty (self-rule), which was your primary argument I presume? It seems that the Arabs in the beginning completely dominated the Persians as far as rulership is concerned and subsequently Turks also took over the rulership in Persia at regular intervals. As for culture and language, it appears that only North Africa, Levant, Aden, and Gulf appears to have been Arabinized. I am not hands-on with the situation in Muslim Spain, so can't comment on that. But Persia and Sindh, which came under the Arab rule, managed to maintain their own cultural and linguistic identities, except for the fact that they replaced their ancient scripts with Arabic alphabets.

 

[Mr Happy]

Maintenance of cultural and linguistic identity is different from the maintenance of sovereignty (self-rule), which was your primary argument I presume? It seems that the Arabs in the beginning completely dominated the Persians as far as rulership is concerned and subsequently Turks also took over the rulership in Persia at regular intervals. As for culture and language, it appears that only North Africa, Levant, Aden, and Gulf appears to have been Arabinized. I am not hands-on with the situation in Muslim Spain, so can't comment on that. But Persia and Sindh, which came under the Arab rule, managed to maintain their own cultural and linguistic identities, except for the fact that they replaced their ancient scripts with Arabic alphabets.

Pakistan did not exist prior to August 14th, 1947. Therefore it could never have lived under the shadow of India. You perhaps mean the Muslims of the subcontinent.

Turks have not always ruled Turks and Persians have not always ruled Persians. Turks of modern-day Turkey are not native to the land. Turkish tribes began arriving in the Middle East and also began settling in Anatolia (now Turkey) during Arab rule. The most prominent tribe among them appears to have been that of Seljuks. House of Usman (Ottoman) arrived later. Ottoman Empire has not been a completely continuous one. The invasion of Anatolia by Temur Lame temporarily brought Ottoman rule to a halt. Likewise, the Persians have been ruled by the Arabs and also Turks. The last Turkic dynasty to rule Persia was the Qajar Dynasty. They ruled from 1797 to 1925. So they have been fairly recent.



In terms of wealth, the Mughals topped just about everyone. Aurengzeb was possibly the richest man of his time and his Hindustan was also perhaps the most powerful empire. If true, this would be a miraculous and surprising economic recovery as his father, Shahjahan, had more or less bankrupted the Mughal treasury for the construction of no-purpose Taj Mahal (he was also planning a black Taj Mahal from himself). One cannot judge the Mughal economic, military, and political strength merely on their developmental projects in Lahore. The city served as the Empire's capital for a short while under Jahangir (more or less for 12 years). You need to consider their other projects like Agra, Fatehpur Sikri, and most importantly, Delhi.

Historically, the Mughals largely have a Hindustani identity. Ethnically, they were mainly Khurasani (Central Asians), belonging to Chugtai tribe. At least, this should hold true for the first three rulers: Babur, Humayun and Akbar.

It depends on what you mean because ethnicity and identity can have numerous meanings:

Ethno-racially.
Ethno-culturally.
Ethno-linguistically.
Ethno-religiously.
Ethno-geographically.
Ethno-nationally.

For example, nobody is an ethno-racial Pakistani because Pakistan does not denote or signify a race.

Also, Pakistan became a country in 1947. There are people who were born before 1947 who are still alive. So, they are contemporary Pakistanis, but not before 1947.

Do you know from which province in Afghanistan?

Good question.

 

[Genghis khan1]

It's actually not Pakistanis claiming to be Arab or Persian that bothers me.

What really pisses me off is the Pakistanis who claim that we have Indian ancestry.

Cuz they do. What’s wrongs having an Indian ancestry, we might look down on them but atleast they aren’t faking their ancestry. People who migrated do claim Indian ancestry.

 

[Mr Happy]

Cuz they do. What’s wrongs having an Indian ancestry, we might look down on them but atleast they aren’t faking their ancestry. People who migrated do claim Indian ancestry.

What was Pakistan before 1947?
Punjabi, Sindhi, Pahari, and Kashmiri are Indo-Aryan languages. So, there is some relationship between Pakistan and India.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Dear users on this wonderful forum of ours

Today I'd like to talk about this notion that almost every Pakistani I've met has, this notion where they claim that they're of Arab ancestry or Persian ancestry or central Asian Turkic ancestry.

I've heard from countless Pakistani claiming they have Arab ancestry or Iranian ancestry, but when they did their DNA ancestry test, it came up 99% South Asian, and I laughed at them.

So let me educate some of you who may have this idiotic notion in your head. Firstly let's talk about Arab DNA. Many pakis want to claim they have Arab blood because of Arab migration during the ummayad and abbassid period, but unfortunately for them, there isn't a single price of evidence that any sort of migration took place ever, and that's because Arabs didn't migrate to the Indus region except for some few places in Sindh, Gujarat and Kerala and even those were minimal, so for pakis to claim they're of Arab ancestry because they "MIGHT" have 0.2% Arab DNA is preposterous and idiotic because you're denying you 99.99% South Asian blood. And all of you so called sayyids who think their lineage goes all the way back to the Prophet, you're just plain ignorant because if you check the history of Muslims in the Indian Subcontinent, it was common practice for Muslims to adopt Arab surnames because of the prestige it brought with it, and the same goes for the sayyid surname, and another common practice in Iran Afghanistan and Pakistan was to falsely link their lineage to one of the 12 imams in order to claim being a sayyid.

An example of this can be easily given with the surname Khan, a Mongolian surname which is the most common surname in all of South Asia. The reason for this is because central and south Asians took on the Khan title as a way of gaining prestige among their society.

So don't go around claiming being sayyid unless you definitively prove you lineage, which none of you can.

Secondly, for those pakis who claim to be of Persian origin. There's no denying that people from the Iranian plateau have been migrating to the Indus region and the Indian Subcontinent for centuries. But if you look at the genetic impact it has had, then you'll see that it'll been next to nothing, and also, Iranian doesn't mean Persian, Iranian is a term for the collective linguistic group of people who vary considerably from one to another and just because your great great great grandfather was from Iran, doesn't make you Iranian.

Thirdly, let's discuss the Turkic migration. The Turkic migration into the heart of the Indian Subcontinent happened after the conquests of northern india by first the samanids and saffarids, both of whom made minimal conquests into what is now Pakistan, and then by the ghaznavids who were a central Asian Turkic dynasty who were persianised. There conquests into India resulted in small groups of people of Turkic, bactrians, and sogdian origin settling into what is now Afghanistan and north-central Pakistan, and even in Pakistan, the Multan and Lahore were the few places where the migrations occurred. After this, another migration did not take place until after the invasion of the ghorid dynasty, but unlike the previous dynasty, the ghorids took control of most of the northern Indian Ganges planes. And yes Turkic migration did happen during this time, but the migration was a drop in the ocean in terms of genetic impact so for Pakistanis who have Turkic surnames like khoja or chagtai, or baig, barlas, Gul, Mirza, pasha, Mughal, etc, for them to only recognize they're far far off allegedly Turkic heritage and disregard they're Punjabi, Gujarati, Sindhi, Balochi, Marathi, kashmiri heritage is pathetic because a surname means nothing to prove where you're from especially in the western-south Asia region because surnames these surnames have been adopted by people for centuries for prestige and respect.

I myself am of 4 different ancestry. My mother is half tajik half Ozebk born and raised in the Soviet Union and my father is half Afghan pakhtun half Pakistani kashmiri born and raised in Scotland. My father didn't give any one of his children his family surname, which is Sharif, because he didn't believe in such things where a surname determines who you are in life, rather, he gave us his first name as our surname.

My whole life people kept telling me I have to chose my father's lineage only because that's how things are done, which is bullshit. Why should I throw away my lineage from my mother's side because of man made ideas of heritage and lineage. I am proud of all 4 of my lineages and I will carry them all with me throughout my life.

So I saw to all of you who are claiming to be this or that. Please stop, you're not fooling anyone other than yourself. You're not Arab, you're not Persian, you're not Turk, you're a P@k! and be proud of it.

These commercially available 23&me, ancestry.com and many other DNA test aren’t sensitive or much accurate for S.Asia or much of Asia. They usually do a quick lump sum outcome for DNA Analysis based on modern day general presence of DNA. Their own website mention that their limited database for region outside European region.
If someone really wants to find out their origin and birth of 3rd, 4th Or 8th great grand father than their are Much experience professional DNA services With really go map out your DNA.

 

[Mr Happy]

These commercially available 23&me, ancestry.com and many other DNA test aren’t sensitive or much accurate for S.Asia or much of Asia. They usually do a quick lump sum outcome for DNA Analysis based on modern day general presence of DNA. Their own website mention that their limited database for region outside European region.
If someone really wants to find out their origin and birth of 3rd, 4th Or 8th great grand father than their are Much experience professional DNA services With really go map out your DNA.

Interesting reply.
Dear brother, just supplicate to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and seek the means. The truth becomes apparent.

 

[Asad Hashmi]

Dear users on this wonderful forum of ours

Today I'd like to talk about this notion that almost every Pakistani I've met has, this notion where they claim that they're of Arab ancestry or Persian ancestry or central Asian Turkic ancestry.

I've heard from countless Pakistani claiming they have Arab ancestry or Iranian ancestry, but when they did their DNA ancestry test, it came up 99% South Asian, and I laughed at them.

So let me educate some of you who may have this idiotic notion in your head. Firstly let's talk about Arab DNA. Many pakis want to claim they have Arab blood because of Arab migration during the ummayad and abbassid period, but unfortunately for them, there isn't a single price of evidence that any sort of migration took place ever, and that's because Arabs didn't migrate to the Indus region except for some few places in Sindh, Gujarat and Kerala and even those were minimal, so for pakis to claim they're of Arab ancestry because they "MIGHT" have 0.2% Arab DNA is preposterous and idiotic because you're denying you 99.99% South Asian blood. And all of you so called sayyids who think their lineage goes all the way back to the Prophet, you're just plain ignorant because if you check the history of Muslims in the Indian Subcontinent, it was common practice for Muslims to adopt Arab surnames because of the prestige it brought with it, and the same goes for the sayyid surname, and another common practice in Iran Afghanistan and Pakistan was to falsely link their lineage to one of the 12 imams in order to claim being a sayyid.

An example of this can be easily given with the surname Khan, a Mongolian surname which is the most common surname in all of South Asia. The reason for this is because central and south Asians took on the Khan title as a way of gaining prestige among their society.

So don't go around claiming being sayyid unless you definitively prove you lineage, which none of you can.

Secondly, for those pakis who claim to be of Persian origin. There's no denying that people from the Iranian plateau have been migrating to the Indus region and the Indian Subcontinent for centuries. But if you look at the genetic impact it has had, then you'll see that it'll been next to nothing, and also, Iranian doesn't mean Persian, Iranian is a term for the collective linguistic group of people who vary considerably from one to another and just because your great great great grandfather was from Iran, doesn't make you Iranian.

Thirdly, let's discuss the Turkic migration. The Turkic migration into the heart of the Indian Subcontinent happened after the conquests of northern india by first the samanids and saffarids, both of whom made minimal conquests into what is now Pakistan, and then by the ghaznavids who were a central Asian Turkic dynasty who were persianised. There conquests into India resulted in small groups of people of Turkic, bactrians, and sogdian origin settling into what is now Afghanistan and north-central Pakistan, and even in Pakistan, the Multan and Lahore were the few places where the migrations occurred. After this, another migration did not take place until after the invasion of the ghorid dynasty, but unlike the previous dynasty, the ghorids took control of most of the northern Indian Ganges planes. And yes Turkic migration did happen during this time, but the migration was a drop in the ocean in terms of genetic impact so for Pakistanis who have Turkic surnames like khoja or chagtai, or baig, barlas, Gul, Mirza, pasha, Mughal, etc, for them to only recognize they're far far off allegedly Turkic heritage and disregard they're Punjabi, Gujarati, Sindhi, Balochi, Marathi, kashmiri heritage is pathetic because a surname means nothing to prove where you're from especially in the western-south Asia region because surnames these surnames have been adopted by people for centuries for prestige and respect.

I myself am of 4 different ancestry. My mother is half tajik half Ozebk born and raised in the Soviet Union and my father is half Afghan pakhtun half Pakistani kashmiri born and raised in Scotland. My father didn't give any one of his children his family surname, which is Sharif, because he didn't believe in such things where a surname determines who you are in life, rather, he gave us his first name as our surname.

My whole life people kept telling me I have to chose my father's lineage only because that's how things are done, which is bullshit. Why should I throw away my lineage from my mother's side because of man made ideas of heritage and lineage. I am proud of all 4 of my lineages and I will carry them all with me throughout my life.

So I saw to all of you who are claiming to be this or that. Please stop, you're not fooling anyone other than yourself. You're not Arab, you're not Persian, you're not Turk, you're a P@k! and be proud of it.

This is the most idiotic post I've seen in a long long time. South Asian is not a single ethnicity. South Asians consist of around 2 Billion people. Punjabi is not a single ethnicity. I'll give you examples.

Rajputs are descended from Vedic Brahmin and Khatris who intermingled with Hephthalites/Ephthalites/White Huns who were central asians. Rajput is a hybrid caste.

Gujjars came from Central Asia 1000 or more years ago. They are of central asian descent but are now known as belonging to South Asia. However, their DNA is not the exact same as the Vedic people. Gujjars in Pakistan are still of pure Gujjar descent while some in Pak have intermingled with Rajputs Jatts and other castes. Awans are also not of South Asian descent. They are of Middle Eastern, Persian descent, who have also intermingled in these regions.

Jat people are the people of the Indus Valley civilization. They are of pure South Asian descent with some exchange with Baloch people from the larger Balochistan area.

The Mirza caste in Pakistan is of Turk descent. Don't try to make them of Vedic descent now.

True. Many people in Pakistan falsely claim to be of Sayyid descent. I am descended from Banu Hashim, and my ancestor of 14 generations came to the Potohar plateau from Tashkent as a senior officer in Timurlane's army and settled there in 1398. He was of Arab/Turk/Persian descent, and we his descendants are of that descent and Gujjar descent, because of generations upon generations of marriages with them.

Summary: South Asian is not a caste. We are a very diverse people. What Indians like Gaurav Arya would like you to believe is that we are all of Vedic descent, and pretending that the invasions never happened. Arabs/Persians/Turks all settled here. Along with many other Indo Aryan castes from Central Asia.

Pakistani is a national identity of many peoples. We are not all the same. I can provide you with solid references upon the origins of Rajput, Gujjar, Jatt, Awan, Mirza, Pashtun, Baloch, Sayyid castes. The true Sayyids in Pakistan are of maybe a few hundred thousand. I am not a Sayyid, I am from a branch family of Banu Hashim, which just means I'm descended from the great grandfather of the Holy Prophet PBUH. who had more many sons. Asad, Abdul Mutallib, Nadh, Sayffayah, Abu Saifi.

Shah Mahmood Qureshi FM is descended from Asad. All Sayyids are from Abdul Mutallib's line throug Hazrat Ali RA and Hazrat Fatimah RA. Abdul Muttalib himself had 7 sons. Al-Harith, Abu Lahab, Abu Talib, Hazrat Hamza RA, Hazrat Abbas RA, Father of Prophet PBUH, Hazrat Abdullah, Az-Zubayr.

For Allah's sake, 6 of these men had many sons who have hundreds of thousands of descendants who exist in these times. Al-Harith had 13 sons. Abu Lahab had 4 sons. Abu Talib had 5 sons. Az-Zubayr had 1 son. Hazrat Hamza RA had 3 sons. Hazrat Abbas RA had 10 sons.

I have not even counted the descendants of Abdul Mutallib's brothers yet. Do you deny the existence of these people? Of the possibility of their sons being spread across the Rashidun Caliphate and later the Ummayad Caliphate? Sindh, Balochistan, and Part of Punjab were conquered during these times, and many people came to these lands and their children are of the current feudal class of Pakistan.

They are now South Asians, not Arabs, because Arab is an identity, and they don't share the culture or language now, but what you are saying is preposterous. They form less than 1 percent of our countries' population but they exist. Musalli Murassi caste pretending to be Sayyid or Qureshi or Hashmi of Siddiqui are obviously excluded.

Peace.

 

[313ghazi]

I've no idea about my ancient ancestory. I know a few hundred years ago we moved from central Punjab to Kashmir and that at that stage my ancestors used to herd cattle. Once they moved to Kashmir they settled as farmers eventually. The recent generations were wealthy and educated including the women, which was rare in our region. We escaped violence during partition and migrated from what is now IoK to AJK. At that point we were dirt poor refugees and Alhamdulillah have re-built up since then.

Never done a DNA test, apparently you get really detailed results if you're western European and the dataset for the rest of the world isn't that great.

 

[Mr Happy]

This is the most idiotic post I've seen in a long long time. South Asian is not a single ethnicity. South Asians consist of around 2 Billion people. Punjabi is not a single ethnicity. I'll give you examples.

Rajputs are descended from Vedic Brahmin and Khatris who intermingled with Hephthalites/Ephthalites/White Huns who were central asians. Rajput is a hybrid caste.

Gujjars came from Central Asia 1000 or more years ago. They are of central asian descent but are now known as belonging to South Asia. However, their DNA is not the exact same as the Vedic people. Gujjars in Pakistan are still of pure Gujjar descent while some in Pak have intermingled with Rajputs Jatts and other castes. Awans are also not of South Asian descent. They are of Middle Eastern, Persian descent, who have also intermingled in these regions.

Jat people are the people of the Indus Valley civilization. They are of pure South Asian descent with some exchange with Baloch people from the larger Balochistan area.

The Mirza caste in Pakistan is of Turk descent. Don't try to make them of Vedic descent now.

True. Many people in Pakistan falsely claim to be of Sayyid descent. I am descended from Banu Hashim, and my ancestor of 14 generations came to the Potohar plateau from Tashkent as a senior officer in Timurlane's army and settled there in 1398. He was of Arab/Turk/Persian descent, and we his descendants are of that descent and Gujjar descent, because of generations upon generations of marriages with them.

Summary: South Asian is not a caste. We are a very diverse people. What Indians like Gaurav Arya would like you to believe is that we are all of Vedic descent, and pretending that the invasions never happened. Arabs/Persians/Turks all settled here. Along with many other Indo Aryan castes from Central Asia.

Pakistani is a national identity of many peoples. We are not all the same. I can provide you with solid references upon the origins of Rajput, Gujjar, Jatt, Awan, Mirza, Pashtun, Baloch, Sayyid castes. The true Sayyids in Pakistan are of maybe a few hundred thousand. I am not a Sayyid, I am from a branch family of Banu Hashim, which just means I'm descended from the great grandfather of the Holy Prophet PBUH. who had more many sons. Asad, Abdul Mutallib, Nadh, Sayffayah, Abu Saifi.

Shah Mahmood Qureshi FM is descended from Asad. All Sayyids are from Abdul Mutallib's line throug Hazrat Ali RA and Hazrat Fatimah RA. Abdul Muttalib himself had 7 sons. Al-Harith, Abu Lahab, Abu Talib, Hazrat Hamza RA, Hazrat Abbas RA, Father of Prophet PBUH, Hazrat Abdullah, Az-Zubayr.

For Allah's sake, 6 of these men had many sons who have hundreds of thousands of descendants who exist in these times. Al-Harith had 13 sons. Abu Lahab had 4 sons. Abu Talib had 5 sons. Az-Zubayr had 1 son. Hazrat Hamza RA had 3 sons. Hazrat Abbas RA had 10 sons.

I have not even counted the descendants of Abdul Mutallib's brothers yet. Do you deny the existence of these people? Of the possibility of their sons being spread across the Rashidun Caliphate and later the Ummayad Caliphate? Sindh, Balochistan, and Part of Punjab were conquered during these times, and many people came to these lands and their children are of the current feudal class of Pakistan.

They are now South Asians, not Arabs, because Arab is an identity, and they don't share the culture or language now, but what you are saying is preposterous. They form less than 1 percent of our countries' population but they exist. Musalli Murassi caste pretending to be Sayyid or Qureshi or Hashmi of Siddiqui are obviously excluded.

Peace.

There are usually signs which help trace one's ancestry. One should seek the means.
Language can play a part. For example, the Pashtun Niazis in Mianwali still speak some Pashto with their Southern Hindko.

Family and genealogical names.
Language.
Names of present or previous towns or villages.
Culture.
Physical features.
Researching and studying, and exchanging information with others.
DNA.
Above all, supplicating to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala.

I've no idea about my ancient ancestory. I know a few hundred years ago we moved from central Punjab to Kashmir and that at that stage my ancestors used to herd cattle. Once they moved to Kashmir they settled as farmers eventually. The recent generations were wealthy and educated including the women, which was rare in our region. We escaped violence during partition and migrated from what is now IoK to AJK. At that point we were dirt poor refugees and Alhamdulillah have re-built up since then.

Never done a DNA test, apparently you get really detailed results if you're western European and the dataset for the rest of the world isn't that great.

Interesting. If you need any help let me know.

 

[jaibi]

closed for moderation