State of teaching (and recording) military history (MH) in Pakistan

[vsdoc]

The fact that you have had an uneasy relationship with Afghanistan doesn't count of course.

Once your borders with Afghanistan and India are taken out of the equation, what remains? Iran?

And the small matter of independent Balochistan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hey Joe, we were not discussing Pathans - you brought them in. Don't try and dig yourself out of your own todd and well habitat. If the Pathans were organised and supported they would not have resorted to some of the acts which they committed - I wish they were. They were later attempts to organise them and many such attempts paid well.

But the main reason was Hindu hordes who invaded Jammu region of IOK as per a well planned operation. And this is a fact which you are running away from. They were not hooligans, many were from the regular forces of those Maharajas. These were organised terrorists who were properly tasked as per a detailed plan with the aim of carrying out mass murders and ethnic cleansing. This is the muck that the Indian people are not exposed to.

Sorry, wrong address. Read your own first post. You brought up the Pathans, and justified them by some dubious history.

 

[Ticker]

It is disputed only by Pakistan. Not by India. India contends, and rightfully so based on the Instrument of Accession, that Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India. ALL of it. Aksai Chin+Azad Kashmir+Whatever is a part of India right now. When we have a Line of Control demarcated, in a territory disputed by only one party, an attack by that party is an attack on the mainland. That is what you fail to understand. So when Pakistan attacks our mainland, we have every right to respond in kind.



History is not your twisted version. History is what it is and you refuse to discuss facts for what they are. This doesnt mean we are twisting facts. It is you that has a distorted view of history.

Please stop living in the dreamworld. Jammu and Kashmir is not an integral part of India. Indian Occupied Kashmir is a UN declared disputed territory and is accepted as such by the whole world except India and Bhutan.

And it is not me who is twisting the facts. It is you people who live in self created and twisted historical environment.

Sorry, wrong address. Read your own first post. You brought up the Pathans, and justified them by some dubious history.

Go back to the discussion. The 1948 war was being discussed. I said the Hindus invaded IOK first and the Pathans are being blamed wrongly for invading first. The discussion related to who invaded or started the war 1948 war first.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Stop running towards the semantics Joe. The international law and the wild west juries running around to hook the noose around an innocent's throat.

The facts are as I stated. And you are talking schmuck which one can smell from miles around.

Have a rest and come back later.

Why are you so averse to learning what you so evidently don't know.

The facts are as you stated? Cite your sources. All mine are in the public domain. Where are yours? With Bharat Karnad, for safe-keeping?

 

[JonAsad]

The fact that you have had an uneasy relationship with Afghanistan doesn't count of course.

Once your borders with Afghanistan and India are taken out of the equation, what remains? Iran?

I was hoping that you will understand and keep afghanistan out- any way- the foreign occupation of afg is the only reason she is now a days little bit hostile towards us- otherwise we had that front covered up since partition- and kindly dont conveniently forget China- we dont hv enough neighbours for people to miss them-

 

[Joe Shearer]

Please stop living in the dreamworld. Jammu and Kashmir is not an integral part of India. Iondian Occupied Kashmir is a UN declared disputed territory and is accepted as such by the whole world except India and Bhutan.

And it is not me who is twisting the facts. It is you people who live in self created and twisted historical environment.



Go back to the discussion. The 1948 war was being discussed. I said the Hindus invaded IOK first and the Pathans are being blamed wrongly for invading first. The discussion related to who invaded or started the war 1948 war first.

The Hindus invaded Kashmir first? Shows your very shallow level of thinking. A religious community does not invade; a sovereign nation invades. And if your dates are correct, these are events that happened in a sovereign country, Kashmir, and if you are to be believed, with the support of the Kashmir state. How was India involved? Not like Pakistan was, with Akbar Khan taking orders right from Liaqat Ali?

Check the dates; none of these states were part of India till much later, after they were told that PEPSU could not be independent.

 

[Ticker]

Would you know what a sovereign nation is, if one came up and kicked you in the goolies? I don't think so.

Consider: either the accession of Kashmir to India was a legitimate act by its sovereign ruler, or it was not.

If it was, Pakistan attacked sovereign Indian soil both in 1948 and in 1965.

If it was not, Pakistan attacked sovereign Jammu and Kashmir both in 1948 and in 1965.

Pakistan herself could have got sovereignty over Jammu and Kashmir Only if the existing sovereign had ceded sovereignty. That never happened. You are in the unpleasant legal position of being on-going aggressors.

Wonder if Bharat Karnad will help you out of this one.

Go ask Bharat karnard yourself. call him on telephone if he is not living in your city - for all I care.

I think I read some place that the actual letter of accession has been lost by India. Only copies are being flashed around. And a lot has been written as to when the letter was signed and the Indian troops had even flown to Srinagar before the actual signing - if the signing took place at all and was not a forgery. But this notwithstanding, the UN declared IOK a disputed territory. India went to the UN and not Pakistan.

And India did not have any justifiable right to declare a disputed territory as its integral part. Like I said, the whole world agrees that IOK is disputed except India and Bhutan.

And - ahhh please go get hold of Bhutan before they also leave India for the Chinese and then it will only be India all alone recognizing IOK as its own territory.

IOK is not part of India. Period.

 

[notsuperstitious]

While its fun to read Joe's posts, can we get someone who comes to his ankles atleast! Joe's responses to the same old broken record of dubious history, sordid polemics, and other signs of acute brainwashing and identity crisis actually elevate that crap to the level of an argument!!! Very sad for the forum.

 

[Wickerman]

Please stop living in the dreamworld. Jammu and Kashmir is not an integral part of India. Iondian Occupied Kashmir is a UN declared disputed territory and is accepted as such by the whole world except India and Bhutan.

And it is not me who is twisting the facts. It is you people who live in self created and twisted historical environment.



Go back to the discussion. The 1948 war was being discussed. I said the Hindus invaded IOK first and the Pathans are being blamed wrongly for invading first. The discussion related to who invaded or started the war 1948 war first.

No one is living in a dreamworld except you. Firstly, India has always contended that Jammu and Kashmir, the entirety of it, belongs to India. And it does, based on the instrument of Accession. It is part of sovereign India that Pakistan has occupied.

Secondly, the United Nations resolution calling it disputed, and calling for a plebiscite is invalid at this point. The resolution called for Pakistan to withdraw all tribesmen and others who had entered the region for the purpose of fighting and that India leave only the minimum number of troops needed to keep civil order. Pakistan itself hasn't adhered to it and has ignored it. Instead of doing as per the recommendations of the resolution, Pakistan to this very day is sponsoring terrorism in that region. And you expect India to abide by UN resolutions? LOL.

So what UN chooses to call it now is their prerogative. As far as India is concerned, that whole state is ours. Our sovereign territory and no one else's. Also, Pakistan wont let the plebiscite happen because it knows taht the majority will vote for India. So they wanna coerce India by sponsoring constant violence. This is not gonna work.

As for 1948, like I said, India REFUSED to even help the state. It was only after accession, India moved in. India was only defending against Pakistani aggression, not invading.

So take your stories elsewhere. I dont think you have a mars mission planned though.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I was hoping that you will understand and keep afghanistan out- any way- the foreign occupation of afg is the only reason she is now a days little bit hostile towards us- otherwise we had that front covered up since partition- and kindly dont conveniently forget China- we dont hv enough neighbours for people to miss them-

Following the Ticker school of instant history, are we?

Read up the facts. Afghanistan, from King Zaheer Shah onwards, was in a state of constant tension with Pakistan over the Durand Line. They wanted that old and unequal stand-still arrangement, not mutually agreed treaty, abrogated, and all Pashtun land reverted. Pakistan didn't want to discuss it.

Check for yourself.

And Congratulations on your warm relationship with China. What the heck. Given your record, one out of four is not bad; it's great!

 

[SamantK]

While its fun to read Joe's posts, can we get someone who comes to his ankles atleast! Joe's responses to the same old broken record of dubious history, sordid polemics, and other signs of acute brainwashing and identity crisis actually elevate that crap to the level of an argument!!! Very sad for the forum.

I agree, respected Sirs, please do not try to explain Ticker. He has done the same thing to every thread, derail.

The thread topic is not justified in the last few pages and I for one would like to hear the respected views of posters like FaujiH, Joe, fatman_17, VCheng and Oscar.

These issues are already discussed at length and any more is just waste of everyone's time.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Go ask Bharat karnard yourself. call him on telephone if he is not living in your city - for all I care.

I think I read some place that the actual letter of accession has been lost by India. Only copies are being flashed around. And a lot has been written as to when the letter was signed and the Indian troops had even flown to Srinagar before the actual signing - if the signing took place at all and was not a forgery. But this notwithstanding, the UN declared IOK a disputed territory. India went to the UN and not Pakistan.

And India did not have any justifiable right to declare a disputed territory as its integral part. Like I said, the whole world agrees that IOK is disputed except India and Bhutan.

And - ahhh please go get hold of Bhutan before they also leave India for the Chinese and then it will only be India all alone recognizing IOK as its own territory.

IOK is not part of India. Period.

More half-baked hysteria.

India went to the UN with a complaint about Pakistani aggression. She mentioned that a plebiscite was planned, but could not be held ad long as a foreign power's troops were milling around. The UN ruling was clear; Pakistan to get out, lock, stock and barrel; no disputed territory business. The plebiscite wad to be held thereafter. Pakistan did the Guest Who Came To Dinner bit.

If you work on reading English, you can read all this for yourself.

 

[Ticker]

The Hindus invaded Kashmir first? Shows your very shallow level of thinking. A religious community does not invade; a sovereign nation invades. And if your dates are correct, these are events that happened in a sovereign country, Kashmir, and if you are to be believed, with the support of the Kashmir state. How was India involved? Not like Pakistan was, with Akbar Khan taking orders right from Liaqat Ali?

Check the dates; none of these states were part of India till much later, after they were told that PEPSU could not be independent.

oho hahaha .... Only religion was left from the discussion and you couldn't help but raise a pointed finger there as well.

And oh .... again the famous Indian ploy, Kashmir being a sovereign state invited India to send its forces because it could defend itself against the same old invaders from the west. wow.

You do have a wild imagination Joe. Incidentally the Indians have repeated the same ol same ol against Sri Lanka and Maldives as well. And if I talk about Junagarrh, Manavader, Hyderabad, Sikkim and Goa etc - they all would say, we were invited.

ha ha ha .... Please Joe - har dafa phuddu nahin chalta.

Following the Ticker school of instant history, are we?

Read up the facts. Afghanistan, from King Zaheer Shah onwards, was in a state of constant tension with Pakistan over the Durand Line. They wanted that old and unequal stand-still arrangement, not mutually agreed treaty, abrogated, and all Pashtun land reverted. Pakistan didn't want to discuss it.

Check for yourself.

And Congratulations on your warm relationship with China. What the heck. Given your record, one out of four is not bad; it's great!

I like that; Ticker school of instant history with Joe Shearer tapping on the plate.

 

[Joe Shearer]

While its fun to read Joe's posts, can we get someone who comes to his ankles atleast! Joe's responses to the same old broken record of dubious history, sordid polemics, and other signs of acute brainwashing and identity crisis actually elevate that crap to the level of an argument!!! Very sad for the forum.

Ticker is a hard case. He is sure that the facts are against him, so he refuses to pay attention to them, and hopes that if he goes on, somebody somewhere among the Pakistanis will be convinced.

It is just propaganda, totally dishonest, not any kind of discussion.

oho hahaha .... Only religion was left from the discussion and you couldn't help but raise a pointed finger there as well.

And oh .... again the famous Indian ploy, Kashmir being a sovereign state invited India to send its forces because it could defend itself against the same old invaders from the west. wow.

You do have a wild imagination Joe. Incidentally the Indians have repeated the same ol same ol against Sri Lanka and Maldives as well. And if I talk about Junagarrh, Manavader, Hyderabad, Sikkim and Goa etc - they all would say, we were invited.

ha ha ha .... Please Joe - har dafa phuddu nahin chalta.



I like that; Ticker school of instant history with Joe Shearer tapping on the plate.

Facts, Ticker, facts, not any more of your boring propaganda, please.

 

[Wickerman]

Facts, Ticker, facts, not any more of your boring propaganda, please.

For Ticker it doesnt tick. FaujHistorian started the thread. TheFalseHistorian (Ticker) is invested in derailing it