Spanish Army prepared to act on Catalonia: chief of staff

rmi5 · Dec 2, 2014

Carlosa said:
There is no practical benefit to have independence, they already have almost everything that they can ask. What they have is not just some sort of autonomy, its one heck of an autonomy.

At this point what they want is based on a nationalistic feeling and is emotionally charged, that's all.

That's right :tup:

It's more about their nationalistic/ethnic feelings/history/tensions than economically based reasons, as they already have a lot of autonomy.

Aepsilons · Dec 2, 2014

For me i what's the point of trying to vie for 'independence' when in the end, they'll be part of the EU anyways, like Spain. For me, the only issue would be the paradigm shift this would mean in Spanish national integrity. If Catalan gains independence, then this will only spur the Basque separatist movement. We're looking at the disintegration of the Kingdom of Spain.

Echo_419 · Dec 2, 2014

Horus said:
Sooner or later Europe is going to find itself doing what it does best.

Shubh Subh bolo

Carlosa · Dec 2, 2014

Nihonjin1051 said:
For me i what's the point of trying to vie for 'independence' when in the end, they'll be part of the EU anyways, like Spain. For me, the only issue would be the paradigm shift this would mean in Spanish national integrity. If Catalan gains independence, then this will only spur the Basque separatist movement. We're looking at the disintegration of the Kingdom of Spain.

Its possible, but unlikely. There are 3 regions in Spain that have a different ethnic identity (meaning a significant one and a different language): the Basque country, Catalonia and Galicia (that's my region). In practice only 2 of them have the resources to make it as independent states, The Basque and the Catalans. It will not be the disintegration of Spain, but it will make a big difference in economic terms.

Carlosa · Dec 2, 2014

Nihonjin1051 said:
For me i what's the point of trying to vie for 'independence' when in the end, they'll be part of the EU anyways, like Spain. For me, the only issue would be the paradigm shift this would mean in Spanish national integrity. If Catalan gains independence, then this will only spur the Basque separatist movement. We're looking at the disintegration of the Kingdom of Spain.

Just to give an example of how big their autonomy is, Catalan language is not only on a par with Spanish, but has de facto priority, I was in Barcelona a few times, if a shop has their name displayed only in Spanish, the local government will fine them and force them to also have a Catalan name or they will close them.

In practice, no Catalans are discriminated against. Spanish are.

Aepsilons · Dec 2, 2014

Carlosa said:
Its possible. There are 3 regions in Spain that have a different ethnic identity (meaning a significant one and a different language): the Basque country, Catalonia and Galicia (that's my region). In practice only 2 of them have the resources to make it as independent states, The Basque and the Catalans. It will not be the disintegration of Spain, but it make a big difference in economic terms.

Carlosa said:
Just to give an example of how big their autonomy is, Catalan language is not only on a par with Spanish, but has de facto priority, I was in Barcelona a few times, if a shop has their name displayed only in Spanish, the local government will fine them and force them to also have a Catalan name or they will close them.

In practice, no Catalans are discriminated against. Spanish are.

I just wish people there could see beyond tribal and ethnic lines. All are , in my opinion, Spaniards. Look for example the Russians; being "Russian" doesnt necessarily mean being White-Slavic; as there are Russians who are of Turkic, Tajik, Kazakh, Mongol, Ainu origin.

Or let's look at China. Being Chinese doesnt' necessarily mean being Han, as Chinese Nationals can be of Manchu, Mongol, Maio, Tibetan, Tai-Kadai, or even Uighyur ethnic groups. Yet they're all Chinese.

Just wish the best for your country, Carlos. And I hope that Spain remains united.

Carlosa · Dec 2, 2014

Nihonjin1051 said:
For me i what's the point of trying to vie for 'independence' when in the end, they'll be part of the EU anyways, like Spain. For me, the only issue would be the paradigm shift this would mean in Spanish national integrity. If Catalan gains independence, then this will only spur the Basque separatist movement. We're looking at the disintegration of the Kingdom of Spain.

Their main argument for independence through out the years has been that they contribute more financially than what they get (but not a big difference). That being said, during the banking crisis a few years ago, the central bank had to bail out Catalan banks and pour billions into them. At that point, the financial argument evaporated. When you are part of a group, you contribute your fair share and the richer ones help the poorer ones. You are rich today, but you don't know what problems you might have tomorrow. Its a very fair system.

I have to point out also that the independence thing is also used by some politicians as a way to get more votes, that has been a big catalyst and explains in many ways why things got to this point.

asquare · Dec 2, 2014

Carlosa said:
Its possible. There are 3 regions in Spain that have a different ethnic identity (meaning a significant one and a different language): the Basque country, Catalonia and Galicia (that's my region). In practice only 2 of them have the resources to make it as independent states, The Basque and the Catalans. It will not be the disintegration of Spain, but it make a big difference in economic terms.

I lived in Barcelona for a year (2012-13)- the year the largest ever demonstrations took place on Catalan National Day. Despite all the excitement around the independence marches, and the gains ERC made, CiU came out way ahead in the elections.

It might make sense to go ahead with a referendum and put this matter to rest for a generation. If Catalonia votes decisively to stay a part of Spain, and all indications are that it will, it will set an important precedent for the Basques as well. Madrid seems a bit overly paranoid about the situation.

Carlosa · Dec 2, 2014

Nihonjin1051 said:
I just wish people there could see beyond tribal and ethnic lines. All are , in my opinion, Spaniards. Look for example the Russians; being "Russian" doesnt necessarily mean being White-Slavic; as there are Russians who are of Turkic, Tajik, Kazakh, Mongol, Ainu origin.

Or let's look at China. Being Chinese doesnt' necessarily mean being Han, as Chinese Nationals can be of Manchu, Mongol, Maio, Tibetan, Tai-Kadai, or even Uighyur ethnic groups. Yet they're all Chinese.

Just wish the best for your country, Carlos. And I hope that Spain remains united.

Thank you, its not a big deal, life goes on. People are mature enough to not get into another civil war or anything like that.

Carlosa · Dec 2, 2014

asquare said:
I lived in Barcelona for a year (2012-13)- the year the largest ever demonstrations took place on Catalan National Day. Despite all the excitement around the independence marches, and the gains ERC made, CiU came out way ahead in the elections.

It might make sense to go ahead with a referendum and put this matter to rest for a generation. If Catalonia votes decisively to stay a part of Spain, and all indications are that it will, it will set an important precedent for the Basques as well. Madrid seems a bit overly paranoid about the situation.

Yes, I agree with you.

asquare · Dec 2, 2014

Carlosa said:
Their main argument for independence through out the years has been that they contribute more financially than what they get (but not a big difference). That being said, during the banking crisis a few years ago, the central bank had to bail out Catalan banks and pour billions into them. At that point, the financial argument evaporated. When you are part of a group, you contribute your fair share and the richer ones help the poorer ones. You are rich today, but you don't know what problems you might have tomorrow. Its a very fair system.

I have to point out also that the independence thing is also used by some politicians as a way to get more votes, that has been a big catalyst and explains in many ways why things got to this point.

I agree that the main point of difference is that the Catalans believe they contribute more than their fair share to Madrid. However, isn't there a bit of a cultural/ethnic element as well? While I was there the Catalans called all the southern Spaniards 'Arabs' (they weren't referring to migrants), and they definitely didn't mean it as a complement.

Carlosa · Dec 2, 2014

asquare said:
I agree that the main point of difference is that the Catalans believe they contribute more than their fair share to Madrid. However, isn't there a bit of a cultural/ethnic element as well? While I was there the Catalans called all the southern Spaniards 'Arabs' (they weren't referring to migrants), and they definitely didn't mean it as a complement.

That's correct, they consider themselves better than all the other spaniards.
So, from my perspective, they can go.