South Korea: Dependence in the Age of OPCON

[Aepsilons]

At present, only Papua New Guinea and Timor Leste are seeking ascension while Bangladesh is supported by Laos as an observer and Indonesia supports Fiji as an observer to the ASEAN.

@Cossack25A1

I think this is a great idea. Papau New Guinea is a potential member, as they are also rich in natural resources (NGs and petro). Timor Leste needs to develop further, definitely their infrastructure is in need. But it is interesting that Fiji, Papau New Guinea, Bangladesh, Timor Leste are all interested in ASEAN.

Thanks for your input, my friend.

 

[Aepsilons]

@UKBengali

I think that Bangladesh has the potential to play the middle ground. Its future is bright if it were to be integrated into ASEAN, the volume of trade between the country and the rest of the ASEAN states would be increased. In fact, I think Bangladesh would even bring more to the table for ASEAN than some of the minor member states such as Cambodia, which is active as a mere pawn of the People's Republic of China. Let alone, the population of Cambodia is only at 13 million. Bangladesh, with a population of over 150 million is a large market for goods and services.

Bangladesh doesn't necessarily have to be a puppet of India. Given its geographical proximity to India, it has the potential to develop a working relationship with India without having to undermine its national integrity.

BD also has the unique problem of being an almost puppet state of India. India will not allow this state of things to change easily. An economically prosperous and militarily strong BD becomes a real threat to Indian strategic interests in the South Asia region as the BD population is naturally anti-Indian. I cannot see Japan breaking with India to help BD eliminate Indian influence.

 

[kalu_miah]

@UKBengali

I think that Bangladesh has the potential to play the middle ground. Its future is bright if it were to be integrated into ASEAN, the volume of trade between the country and the rest of the ASEAN states would be increased. In fact, I think Bangladesh would even bring more to the table for ASEAN than some of the minor member states such as Cambodia, which is active as a mere pawn of the People's Republic of China. Let alone, the population of Cambodia is only at 13 million. Bangladesh, with a population of over 150 million is a large market for goods and services.

Bangladesh doesn't necessarily have to be a puppet of India. Given its geographical proximity to India, it has the potential to develop a working relationship with India without having to undermine its national integrity.

Thanks for your nice comments about Bangladesh, every sane human being would think like that.

What Bangladeshi people (90% Muslims) want and hope is that we have a normal equal relationship with India. But India and their agents in Bangladesh who currently are in ruling position with India's help and support, do not want that. They want to keep and abuse Bangladesh as a subservient vassal state, infiltrating every section of our media, political, bureaucratic, civil and armed forces etc. I heard from multiple people (including an armed forces officer, one of the top businessman etc.) that Indian intelligence agent R&AW virtually runs Bangladesh, from ensuring the security of their puppet Prime Minister Hasina to instructing which opposition party member to kill using local death squad called RAB.

When non-political people like me and @UKBengali try to express our views that goes against the Indian narrative, note that they become hostile and start calling us names like Jamati, Al Qaeda etc. implying that we are members of some Islamist party or could be outright Islamist terrorists etc. This is their standard mode of operation. If people like us would disclose our name or were living in Bangladesh, we could not speak up and tell the truth as we see it like this, because we would be targeted for elimination. To give you a sample of what we are dealing with, please see these two examples:
Murder of Sagar Sarowar and Meherun Runi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mahmudur Rahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you go through these two examples, you will find that none were Islamist or extremist, their only fault was that they spoke up against Indian hegemony in Bangladesh.

Sorry for going OT, but I thought I would mention this as we are already seeing some mud slinging in this thread.

 

[Aepsilons]

@kalu_miah ,

Your points are solid. Agreed. One thing that I do notice is that some insensitive Indian posters call some Bangladeshi posters as "Jamati". Is that some kind of racial slur ? If it is, that has to stop.

 

[Contrarian]

70% of Bangladeshi's have a favourable view of India.
How Asians View Each Other | Pew Research Center's Global Attitudes Project

Those are the facts on the ground, not what some hormone crazed Islamist supporters yell on an online forum.

@kalu_miah ,

Your points are solid. Agreed. One thing that I do notice is that some insensitive Indian posters call some Bangladeshi posters as "Jamati". Is that some kind of racial slur ? If it is, that has to stop.

Its not a racial slur.

Jamaat is a political party in Bangladesh which supported Pakistani Army while it was conducting genocide on their own people - the Bengalis.

For those crimes, the leaders of Jamaat-e-Islami have been reviled by the common people of Bangladesh and India, as they took part in massive human right abuses on their own people.

And as a result, International Crimes Tribunal has tried and convicted Jamaat leaders for War Crimes and treason. Death Penalty was the sentence awarded.

Furthermore, Jamaat-e-Islami is now no longer eligible to contest in elections as declared by Supreme Court of Bangladesh.

 

[Aepsilons]

@kalu_miah ,

With the recent UN arbitration that awarded a considerable amount of territory (maritime) to Bangladesh, and with India's approval, do you think that this is a step towards restitution of relations between Bangladesh and India? Your views, good sir?

 

[Aepsilons]

Its not a racial slur.
Jamaat is a political party in Bangladesh which supported Pakistani Army while it was conducting genocide on their own people - the Bengalis.
For those crimes, the leaders of Jamaat-e-Islami have been reviled by the common people of Bangladesh and India, as they took part in massive human right abuses on their own people.
And as a result, International Crimes Tribunal has tried and convicted Jamaat leaders for War Crimes and treason. Death Penalty was the sentence awarded.
Furthermore, Jamaat-e-Islami is now no longer eligible to contest in elections as declared by Supreme Court of Bangladesh.

Thank you for elucidating me on that @Contrarian . In regards to Bangladesh, let's be objective here, do you think that the Indian Government and the Indian Army in any way takes advantage of Bangladesh? Are there any territorial disputes (land) that sees Bangladeshi soil being violated by Indian Army and/or Indian paramilitary forces ?

Thanks.

 

[kalu_miah]

@kalu_miah ,

Your points are solid. Agreed. One thing that I do notice is that some insensitive Indian posters call some Bangladeshi posters as "Jamati". Is that some kind of racial slur ? If it is, that has to stop.

By Jamati they actually mean a member of this political party:
Bangladesh Jamaat-e-Islami - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is an Islamist political party in the line of Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt. They are followers of the founder:
Abul A'la Maududi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I and I am sure @UKBengali never associated with this party, not that there is anything wrong with it. It is just not our cup of tea.

They are Islamist, but not terrorist and do not believe in violence. They are a bona fide political party that believes in democracy and participates in elections. But why Indians are so scared of Jamaat is because they are a highly organized political party and all along they have been concerned with the long term interest of the 90% Muslim population of our landmass. Still now, this is one organization Indians could not buy off with money and privilege and could not infiltrate.

During 1971, Jamaat in my view correctly opposed our separation from Pakistan. Unlike most Soviet Union leaning communists and China leaning communists who were used by Indian intelligence as useful idiots, they saw through Indian design of instigating a civil war to break Pakistan and thus make two weaker states out of a much bigger and stronger Muslim majority nation, a successor to Muslim ruled Mughal Hindustan.

In the past 1.5 years, thousands of Jamaat activists were killed and eliminated. Most now live in fear of their lives and do not stay in their home at night.

So for very valid reasons, Indians do not like Jamaat and want to see them wiped off from the face of the earth. In their sick delusional mind, they think that by eliminating Jamaat they will forever be able to control Bangladesh, using their puppets. Little do they realize that our public is now becoming more and more aware, but is keeping silent, because of fear of their lives.

And whenever some Bangladeshi members speak up against Inida's naked aggression in internal matters of our country, immediately we are labeled as Jamati's, essentially marking us as target for elimination.

 

[Genesis]

There comes a time when the student must graduate. South Korea has a strong economy, a powerful army, and a widespread and heartfelt scorn for the US--sounds like a perfect combination for transfer of OPCON. Perhaps the US should unilaterally transfer OPCON to force South Korea to face the realities of the region in which it lives, and choose either an alliance with Japan or become a client of China. The US literally cannot afford the status quo any longer.

China doesn't need client states, the US model failed so obviously we should take it? Other countries have navies, they should use it, if one can't guarantee the passage there, maybe you don't need business.

If South Korea wants to work together, they need to decide their own destiny, because we are not going to do it.

 

[kalu_miah]

@kalu_miah ,

With the recent UN arbitration that awarded a considerable amount of territory (maritime) to Bangladesh, and with India's approval, do you think that this is a step towards restitution of relations between Bangladesh and India? Your views, good sir?

Definitely its a step in the right direction, but having an Indian puppet now in control of Bangladesh, many people from the opposition are claiming that Indian puppet rulers have handed over some areas by not claiming a submerged island called South Talpatti as part of Bangladesh:
How Awami League handed over South Talpatti to India
Banglapedia

Note the yellow line is international border.

So we cannot even be sure now that our current govt. in power is really protecting our national interest or protecting Indian interest, as they stay in power solely due to Indian support and backing, holding Bangladeshi people at gun point.

 

[somsak]

My View Only. Cannot generalize to other Thai. But many Bhuddist Thai shares my view.
@Nihonjin1051

BIG NO NO NO NO NO for Bangladesh to join ASEAN.

I think Myanmar people is very likely to agree with me according to the news.

No Bangladesh in ASEAN. No No No.

Reason:
Do you see on going ethnic/religious conflict in Burma?
Do you know Rohingya news?
There was no Rohingya. Rohingya is actually ethnic Bangladesh in Burma. Simply as that. They are Muslim
According to Thai romors, these people are very lazy. They keep reproducing very fast. They can have many wives too, because of their religous. They can have 4 wifes.

Look at the news. Bangladesh Muslim burned Bhuddist temples.
http://www.komchadluek.net/detail/20121001/141247/สลด!เผาวัดพุทธบังคลาเทศวอด.html

From what I read on the net.
Ethnic Burmese in BD are under suppression. They are driven out from their land in BD by BD muslim people, and BD government just pretend to look at other direction. In return, ethnic BD who happened to be Muslim in Myanmar also has a conflict with Burmese Bhuddist in Myanmar. Therefore, population swap already occurring. It seems that Myanmar Bhuddist did the same, and drive out ethnic Bangladesh in Myanmar, and then invite those BD Bhuddist to stay the land of ethnic Bangladesh who happened to be Muslim in Myanmar.

BD is even nearer to Middle East. If we want to avoid middle east type of religious conflict, we need to stay away from BD. Soon ASEAN will be a single community. In long term, people can move regardless of country. Im afraid that some religious will use this opportunity to spread their religious. Islam religious came with islamic culture, which is very very very very different from western culture, or current Thai culture.

If Thailand & Myanmar falls under islam, the next will be Vietnam and China. The fire of middle east will reach all of us.

From my side, Im fully support Myanmar Bhuddist in this conflict. Fight Fight my Burmese friend.

 

[Aepsilons]

@somsak

I can sense the mistrust you and the Thais have for Muslims. But if this is the case, then do you feel the same way for Malaysia and Indonesia? Remember, my friend, that Indonesia has a HUGE population of over 260 million. And it is 97% Muslim, too.

INDONESIA, too, once was plagued with regional crises, and separatist threats, and ethnic problems. But, look, it has stabilized. In fact, Indonesia is growing , and is now the regional leader of ASEAN.

So, if INDONESIA can join and can contribute, i don't see why Bangladesh cannot.

 

[Contrarian]

Thank you for elucidating me on that @Contrarian . In regards to Bangladesh, let's be objective here, do you think that the Indian Government and the Indian Army in any way takes advantage of Bangladesh? Are there any territorial disputes (land) that sees Bangladeshi soil being violated by Indian Army and/or Indian paramilitary forces ?

Thanks.

Just to be sure. Read this on your own so you understand.
Bangladesh Jamaat-e-Islami - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Its a party hated by the common masses in both Bangladesh and India. They committed war crimes the likes of which were conducted in the Baltics.
What we find unpalatable is how can some Bangladeshis(Jamaati) conduct genocide on their own countrymen for Pakistan.

Top Jamaat leader hanged in Bangladesh for war crimes – The Express Tribune


Jamaat is no longer even a recognized political party by the ruling of the Honorable Supreme Court of Bangladesh.

As far as territorial disputes are concerned, yes we do have territorial disputes but nothing on the lines of India-Pakistan.
Both the Government of India and Govt of Bangladesh are fully committed to resolving the disputes peacefully. In fact, the Indo-BD border has already been mutually agreed by the two Governments. The treaty for Land-Boundary settlement has been signed by India and BD.

While the treaty has been ratified by Bangladesh, it is yet to be ratified by Indian Parliament because it requires Constitutional Amendment which is a very tough process. This has been pending because the last Government did not have the majority to pass through legislation.

The new Government of India (which has a majority) has already said that they are committed and will pass the legislation as soon as possible.

The UN arbitration on the Sea boundary though caused a loss to India (The verdict gave majority of what we claimed to Bangladesh) yet we are still happy that the issue has been resolved and happy for the final resolution of the maritime boundary.

Our commitment to Bangladesh can be seen by the fact that after the new Govt of India was sworn in, the first visit of our Foreign Minister out of India was to Bangladesh.

And its not just that, Bangladesh has also helped India immensely by killing anti-India terrorists which were using Bangladesh as a base. They have helped in giving us their river waterways to transport heavy equipment to setup powerplants in North East India.

On the whole you can see that India and BD are not just okay, but are actively working to make their relationship better and better. You can expect that before 2016, India would have passed the Land Boundary Agreement in Parliament that would formally settle the border once and for all. We - Indians - are rather happy with Bangladesh and want common Bangladeshis to become more and more prosperous. We wish them nothing but the best. Its the jamaatis we have a problem with. They have a tendency to lie. You can see from the PEW poll itself that over 70% of Bangladeshis have a favourable opinion of India - that is damn high and should show you the truth.

 

[Genesis]

@Nihonjin1051 :

This would be ideal but the problem would be there would be no absolute leader to keep the group united. I am not saying it is impossible to have a group where initially the likes of Japan, Korea and Indonesia are dominant but it would be difficult.

BD also has the unique problem of being an almost puppet state of India. India will not allow this state of things to change easily. An economically prosperous and militarily strong BD becomes a real threat to Indian strategic interests in the South Asia region as the BD population is naturally anti-Indian. I cannot see Japan breaking with India to help BD eliminate Indian influence.

In the end, us middle-sized countries may have no choice but to try to work out an accommodation with China that recognises Chinese primacy in Asia but also allows other countries to retain their independence to a high degree.

Remember the West will still be strong and so it would be in the Chinese interest to play nice.

What evidence suggest we want to control anyone in Asia.

I don't want to be blunt here, but we don't really consider the rest of Asia that much of a paradise that we must control.

Estimated population in regional countries by 2050:
List of countries by past and future population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ASEAN-10 million
-------------- --------
Indonesia 313
Philippines 172
Vietnam 111
Thailand 70
Myanmar 71
Malaysia 43
Cambodia 22
Laos 10
Singapore 9
Brunei 1
----------------------------
subtotal 822

Proximal
--------------------------
Japan 107
South Korea 43
North Korea 27
Bangladesh 250
Sri Lanka 25
Timor Leste 2
Papua NG 10
-------------------------------
subtotal 464

Total 1286
Muslim regional 540

China 1304
India 1657
Muslim(global) 2300-2800



How long can India keep Bangladesh population hostage under gun point? It is not sustainable. Its only a matter of time that Indian agents are defeated, question is how long.

What you mentioned about China, they are too paranoid to look at any regional alliance not as a threat, but if regional countries depend on each other, it reduces their dependence on outside offshore balancer, such as the US. That is the key point to understand for China, if they want to see reduced outside interference in the region.

But considering real politik, China will be opposed to these kind of ideas and the US will be for it and it can only grow under US/NATO/West umbrella.

When and if Japan makes a move, with US backing, India will have no choice but to step aside and let a sovereign Muslim country of 250 million (2050) people decide their own future and national destiny.

We don't care for any alliances, not because we fear them, I could list the Chinese navy confirmed acquisition up to 2025, but I won't, cause that's lame.

It'll lead to wars, like for example, somebody might get the idea they can win against us, which they can't, and then we go to war.


I don't know about you, but I have some cousins in the military, and I don't want to see them home injured, scarred mentally, or worse.

Oh and to be free of India, the first thing you need to do is mature and stop blaming your problem on others. Even if what you said is true, the problem isn't how could they do that, it's why did you let them.

 

[pher]

Budhism is also Indian, boy.
Infact Budhism is considered by many as one of the philosophies under the aegis of Hinduism.

nobody associate Budhism with india now, kid.

Buddh is a Napelese, beside, Budhism was a dead religion in india thousands of years ago.