South China Sea Forum

[jhungary]

It has nothing to do with playing nice or naughty. There is no written rule defining the freedom of navigation. It is however used as a red herring by the US that any Chinese objection to its conducting military exercise and espionage mission in its near shore is branded as against the freedom of navigation.

And yes you can say everyone plays by the same rule, that if US can conduct military drills in China's EEZ, then China can as well vice versa, but China doesn't want to conduct military drill anywhere near the US, nor does it want the US to so so in its own backyard. So it naturally wants to better define the rule in its favor. And how is China going to convince the US to accept that? It can't. So the only thing it can do is to deter and disrupt US action that it deems unfavorable, so as to become the norm, or an unwritten rule, just like the current interpretation on the "freedom of navigation". Until it is the US interest to better define or change the rule, that's the best China can and will do.

You did not get my point at all.

First of all, there ARE written rule defining the freedom of navigation. Both Navigation Right and Freedom of Navigation were defined as per UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS). While US did not sign in at the convention, the US operate on US Law of Navigation (Or US Navigation Rights) but we are talking about the former, not the later, which China belong to the former convention as a Signed and Ratified Parties.

Both navigational right and freedom of navigation is defined as per Article 87 (FON) and Article 88 (Nav Right)

But this is not my point.

My point is as follow.

China can protest or they can ignore the law by its own merit. To be honest, the only thing Chinese Government need to do is to withdrew from the UNCLOS once and for all and issue their own Navigation Right, as per US. The problem is. You can do either one but not both.

You can withdrew from the Convention, then use your own law, but then you cannot protest other being "aggressive" as you lost the right to be protected by the convention, should you choose to leave. And if you are going to do what you do unilaterally, then what do you expect on other party response?

You can protest against the US aggression, if you stick by the UNCLOS. If you think the US is the aggressor per international law, you can speak up in the international forum you belong to. But by doing so, you would be need to respect and abide to the law as we speak. Building Island on an international waterway is not permitted as per UNCLOS.

You can leave, or you can protest, but you cannot do both. Doing one will concede the right of doing the other. What Chinese Government and to some extend PDF Chinese member here doing at this moment is they are doing both.

we are the true believers of freedom of navigation, it is US who cries every time we navigate in front of you.

Look to me it's the Chinese who are doing the crying.

South China Sea: China slams US over warship sailing near artificial islands; US ambassador 'summoned' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
South China Sea: Beijing calls US Navy warship's route a 'provocation'
South China Sea: US Navy warship sails by China's artificial islands, says US

The US, on the other hand, just do what they want to do....They did not protest, they simply challenge it.

 

[seven7seven]

If you have to say that you're winning, then you probably are not.

A real winner is more secure and let their actions do all the talking for them. China will keep building in SCS and let the US continue peacock strutting all they want. China gets stronger every day and US soothes their fragile ego so everyone's happy right?

 

[jhungary]

You think the yankies dare to bomb our islands?

You just never change didn't you??

Yankee/Yank is the quite Degradtory to North American.

Quote your favourite authoritative dictionary reference - The oxford Dictionary

Yankee - definition of Yankee in English from the Oxford dictionary

Yankee - definition of Yankee in English from the Oxford dictionary

Definition of Yankee in English:
informal

often derogatory An American
Yank 2

Yank - Oxford Dictionary
yank - definition of yank in English from the Oxford dictionary

See definition in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
Line breaks: Yank
Pronunciation: /jaŋk/


noun
informal
1chiefly derogatory An American.

also my favorite, The racial slur database

The Racial Slur Database


Please do not insult any nationality again. If you have to say Vietnamese, say Vietnamese, don't say Vietcong, if you have to say American, say American, don't say Yankies or Yank or Yankee, unless you are referring to the New York Yankee, I don't understand what's the point for nicknaming nationality like you did?

Fact is there are even internet talk about banning the word Yankee in official use in the US

The Racial Slur Database - "Yankee" (Is it time to ban the 'Yankees'?)

@jhungary @gambit im sure this would charge the boys near Virginia Beach , eh? lol.

lol. We are just doing our job.....

Nothing new about this.

Didn't they do this when the PLA sent five naval ships off the coast of Alaska last September?

Actually, I have explained on Post #174 on the differences between the PLAN sail across the 12 NM territorial limit on the Aleutian in Alaska and the US sail to within 12 NM in SCS in term of International Law.

But nobody seems to care, so here it goes again

The different is China is not disputing the sovereignty of Aleutian Island. While the Sea in SCS is disputed. Also, the Chinese transit thru Aleutian strait through Innocent Passage, while the US transit thru planned bearing.

Under International Law of the Sea, Innocent Passage would be granted if a country transit thru another country territorial water given the bearing is for a simple transfer. For example. If one want to pass thru Panama Canal (Which is international water DOES NOT belong to Panama, as it was neutralized international waterway), one have to pass thru Panama Territorial water to be able to access the canal, thus an innocent bearing is granted.

International Waterway works in 3 levels.

Strait - Such as Aleutian/Bearing Strait
Canal - Such as Suez Canal and Panama Canal
Rivers - Some River also designated International waterway

International Waterways legal definition of International Waterways
What Chinese did in Aleutian is completely different than what the US ship did in SCS, the Chinese have the international right to access the Aleutian strait, which mean even if they are to enter US territorial water without notified and granted permission of the American, as long as they are to transit from Aleutian to the other end and enter Russia Water, US cannot do anything to them, if US fire on Chinese ship entering Aleutian Water under innocent passage, US would have committed war crime.

On the other hand, there are no restriction on SCS as they are not Canal nor Strait that was internationalized waterway, the claim, is that they are sole territorial water of China, but by allowing the US ship to transit under constant bearing, the Chinese could be seen as relief on duty of care to their alleged border. That is not the same as entering someone else water for innocent passage to the canal or strait. It was a challenge to disputed territories.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/u-s-navy-to-send-destroyer-within-12-miles-of-chinese-islands.405468/page-12#ixzz3prSXiuyh

 

[Sanchez]

so how is Canadian dollar doing with low oil price? does that benefit you?

The guy is a Viet.

 

[Slav Defence]

Please,have your discussions,but without any offence.If this thread succeed in having peaceful discussions till 23 posts,then I will be getting a real good heart attack
On serious note,it is not a game.US-China needs to reconsider such cases and should sit together to resolve them.
To the thread op,he should grow up and learn that war is a bad game.If US wasted all it's economy on this,then she will eventually lost her position,a really sincere advise.Economical and regional stability comes first.
Regards

 

[Place Of Space]

Good action, very necessary.

 

[Place Of Space]

What's going on there today?

 

[Place Of Space]

Actually, according to UNCLOS, there are no different between transiting and conducting military operation. China can hold a military Drill in US EEZ as much *** the US having the same right to hold a Military Drill in China EEZ.

The definition of "Rules" is that it Applies to EVERYBODY and no one was in exception.

Even the US observe this "rules" even tho the US has not ratified the UNCLOS.

The problem with what you and most Chinese thinking is, since China wasn't "Around" when the rules was set, the China should not by all account respect and obey the rules and instead having their "Own" set of rules.

Well, I did not say China cannot do that, but you cannot do that and say China is not escalating anything. You can change the rules by having it heard internationally, and then when all other party agree to and ratified the amendment, then the rules can be change. You cannot unilaterally change the "rules" when you deem fits and call other aggressive. When you change the rules unilaterally, you are the party that act aggressively.

Baseline is, if you don't play nice, you automatically refused the right to call other foul.

"Even the US observe this "rules" even tho the US has not ratified the UNCLOS."

You guys are very funny, but can tease nobody.

Need to know, all the America action has no actual effect upon China in SCS.

 

[Jlaw]

The best response is keep quiet from our media stand point, meanwhile aggressively tracking their ship and lock on to them. Continue to build on our islands and install defense post in case of the worse.

the best response would be for Chinese warships to lock missiles onto the USS Larsen. Give CNN more things to write about. Chasing and giving warning is not good enough.

Psychological warfare, China keep her head cool and do what it does best: BUILD BUILD and BUILD

Psychological warfare is to intimidate the opponent, not keeping a cool head.

 

[Sanchez]

Seriously I think that the 12 mile thing is going to be heated up or escalate. It's the best time for US to wage a war against China. A war between China and US might be inevitable after all. Our government has to weigh the gains and losses. It's only the top bosses who know our cards.

 

[Jlaw]

Did you hear bro? Viet Nam navy invited JMDF Fleet to joint patrol near your islands in SCS.

Hmm, excited ? I am.



Nothing new, they've always patrolled this region. Freedom of navigation , I suppose, is guaranteed .

And that was exactly what I was talking about. Now the US have given a false sense of security to Vn and Jp due to a nonchalant first response from PLAN.
@TaiShang @Martian2

China didn't start a shooting war with Japan over the Diaoyu island dispute for far more serious transgression, why do you think it would do anything beyond the symbolic with the US?

The fact China did very little with Diaoyu island exposed its weakness. In fact Chinese government arrested partriotic Chinese for staging anti Jap protests in Diaoyu island
Sometimes you cannot wait for full modernization because when trouble comes to you, you can't just deflect it and hope to modernize until 2025.

 

[jhungary]

"Even the US observe this "rules" even tho the US has not ratified the UNCLOS."

You guys are very funny, but can tease nobody.

Need to know, all the America action has no actual effect upon China in SCS.

lol, did you actually bother to read both UNCLOS and US Navigation Right? The "Freedom of Navigation" part are the same.

And it's true the other way around too, all Chinese Action have no effect on the US, the US will still sail and fly around and to the island regardless.

 

[prima99]

Indonesian President Widodo Calls For 'Restraint' In South China Sea As US Warship USS Lassen Tests China Claim

Speaking in Washington, D.C., Indonesian President Joko Widodo called for "restraint" in the South China Sea hours after a U.S. warship sailed close to an island claimed by China despite Chinese warnings not to do so.

Widodo didn't refer directly to the USS Lassen's journey in his prepared speech at the Brookings Institution, but he said Indonesia is neutral and supports freedom of navigation, the Associated Press reported.

"Indonesia is not a party to the dispute, but we have a legitimate interest in peace and stability there," AP reported Widodo as saying. "We call on all parties to exercise restraint and refrain from taking actions that could undermine trust and confidence, and put at risk the peace and stability of the region."

China in the past year has made concrete its claim to most of the South China Sea, including parts claimed by the Philippines and Vietnam, by using reclamation to build and expand islands on which it has built airstrips and other facilities.

Widodo also reiterated his statement that Indonesia will play an active role in the situation, declining to say how.

According to the Diplomat, Widodo's defense minister, Ryamizard Ryacudu, this month said if the countries with claims in the South China Sea can calm tensions on their own, “there’s no need to involve other parties in resolving the dispute.”

 

[anon45]

We will speed up our build up. No need to make a big deal out of nothing especially it is our territory. Why can't we build in our territory? It makes no sense to anyone looking at this.. Those islands will be useful to gather intelligence in time of war against all kinds of enemy. There are indeed a good stationary carriers that are unsinkable.

Rest of the world says SCS is not your territory, we will continue sailing where we want to prove it.

Also be specific, they are not Islands, they are *Artificial* Islands.


*shrug* believe they are unsinkable if you want to, there is a reason the US navy calls them grapes, and GPS coordinates are all we need to sink them.

 

[Place Of Space]

lol, did you actually bother to read both UNCLOS and US Navigation Right? The "Freedom of Navigation" part are the same.

And it's true the other way around too, all Chinese Action have no effect on the US, the US will still sail and fly around and to the island regardless.

The America still sail and fly around, still has no effect upon China.