South China Sea Forum

[pigtaker]

position all out of our EEZ waters. correct me if I am wrong.

who knows, it is mobile, depend on where the oil is.

 

[cirr]

Fishing vessels Shun Feng-001 and Shun Feng-002 launched at ZPMC's Qidong Marine Engineering Co. Ltd：

Eight such ships will be built for starters。

Our Vietnames friends need to expand their fishing fleet in a major way，both in terms of the size and the number of the ships。

Bigger，higher and faster。

 

[Rechoice]

Fishing vessels Shun Feng-001 and Shun Feng-002 launched at ZPMC's Qidong Marine Engineering Co. Ltd：

Eight such ships will be built for starters。

Our Vietnames friends need to expand their fishing fleet in a major way，both in terms of the size and the number of the ships。

Bigger，higher and faster。

ships of chinese sea pirates.

 

[liubang]

As a viet nationalist, it is rather pointless to argue whose e-penis (nationalism/national pride) is bigger. I want to ask all the Chinese here. What is China's end goal? Chinese-spoke people kept taking that it want peace and that China's rise in power is not a threat to anyone. Is that a lie? Is the current China still harbor historical expansionism attitude or these recent events are just really over much needed fuels? To be honest, I don't really care for some islands or some oil rigs. But the whole trading route of South China Sea? And I am afraid to think what beyond that. Internet armchair strategists like you people or the people who thought up the 6 wars China had to fight in the coming years, what is the end goal?? To conquer all the territories under the map of national shame? Or being the second coming of the British and American Empire? Well, there is after a recent Taiwanese's article in regard to China invasion in 2020 which coincide with the 6 wars China had to fought article.

How do China prevent major consequences while keeping its interest? I had already resign that Vietnam really is a nobody in this conflict. It doesn't have a superpower or an emerging superpower as its backing unlike some other countries. America talk a big game but it won't do jack shit and will sell Vietnam to China like it had done in the past. India and Japan flirting around with Vietnam but it won't commit jack shit either. Unless China start a real fight with say Taiwan, Philippines, South Korea, and Japan, then the Americans will act. But until then, nothing.

The problem is this. It isn't within China's interest to go to war with Vietnam. Even the nations that kissing China's *** like say Malaysia. All those nations are beefing up their defense and military while saying "China is our friend. China is so peaceful. Go and police our water all you want." One can see where they stand with their actions regardless of their words. Although, a war with Vietnam is not planned however with such a high tension at sea, either parties can go overboard and with horrible consequences. A war with Vietnam will forever change China's role in the region. ASEAN, Japan, South Korea, and India will even more on edge. And the type of shitty diplomacy like "we are your friend... we came in peace" won't work ever again.

The American had already show their resolve over curbing the rise of China. They committed 2 wars (Vietnam and Korea) on precisely that. Messing with Vietnam is one thing. But going way overboard in South China Sea/East China Sea will interfere with American's interest. And the neocons over here are itching for a fight. At that time, the USA will fund all separatist movements in China like they did for ethnic minorities during the Vietnam War. Russia maybe friendly now after the Ukraine incident. But it had shown in the past to be wary of China. After all, it is the 6th out of 6 wars that the Chinese have to fought. Even now after shaking hand with China, it still selling weapons to countries that are against the Chinese's interest.

Chinese economy is but a paper tiger. Global industries are already put their "race to the bottom" in effect. In a few years time, jobs will left China and moving down to ASEAN nations. Chinese's investments abroad are meeting resistance and fueling anti China sentiment. From Africa, to South America, to South East Asia, people felt the Chinese are taking over everything. Ask the so call Chinese friends? The Laotians are getting there on the verge of being fed up. As for Malays, the government may say one thing, but how long will it be until another May 13. Same thing happening over Burma and elsewhere in Africa, how many million of dollars will the Chinese buy these people off like they did in Cambodia?? Is it sustainable using only hard power?

If China think it will exercise only hard power and that other nations will led it emerge as a superpower peacefully, then think again. The establishments: USA, European Union, and Russia will compete more with China on diplomacy, economy, and military. Rising regional powers and emerging superpowers like Indonesia and India are wary of China. Unless, you completely screw over Vietnam, if not, then the Vietnam and Philippines will also play the catch up games.

China should learn from the USA. The American's exercise of only hard power doesn't work and getting more trouble than its bargain. China should really gave up its expansionism dream. It may had work 100 years ago but not in this global climate. So you cheerleaders are so happy with the recent developments are very very shortsighted. Winning allies in the region is much better for China in the long run. Soft Power?? What are China's image around the world?? Dog eaters with the Dog eating festival (embarrassingly for Vietnam too for that), poaching Rhino for quack medicines (same with Vietnam), lead in children toys, melamine in infant milks??? Low quality and fake products that even Chinese don't want to buy (that is the exact Chinese customers' behavior at my store)? Air pollution so bad that it migrating toward all countries around it and even to America half way around the world (and not to mention is visible from the moon)? Chinese fled China in huge population because they felt there is no opportunity for them there. I meant, jesus, a Chinese farmer going to Africa to farm. What is the freaking world coming to. As much as the world seemed to hate Americans, they still seemed to love them a ton more than the Chinese.

 

[terranMarine]

It's a stupid question asking what China's end goal is. There's no end goal for every country. One can ask that silly question 500 years ago , 100 years ago, today, 100 years from now, 500 years from now. Every country, every leaders have different sets of goals.

 

[liubang]

It's a stupid question asking what China's end goal is. There's no end goal for every country. One can ask that silly question 500 years ago , 100 years ago, today, 100 years from now, 500 years from now. Every country, every leaders have different sets of goals.

It isn't stupid. I asking how far is China going to take it. As a viet, I wouldn't know. I am hoping for some Chinese insider. Because the information I gather is all over the place. Before Vietnam War, China had an expansionism attitude. Then it had the attitude of doing businesses with everyone. Now, it using it navy to patrol the entirety of the entire South China Sea and almost pushing into Indian Ocean. So how far will China go?? A war like the Chinese article said? Or just pushing and pushing with these oil rigs and then pull back when it got too tense. How far is China willing to go at least during the current time? I think I am speaking English. I don't know if you can understand me while I am being as clear as I am.

It's a stupid question asking what China's end goal is. There's no end goal for every country. One can ask that silly question 500 years ago , 100 years ago, today, 100 years from now, 500 years from now. Every country, every leaders have different sets of goals.

Just to be clear, I will actually take whatever you say seriously. So don't post stupid irrelevant shit like this again. I am ain't here to play the pointless dumbfuck flame war like I have seen on this thread.

 

[terranMarine]

It isn't stupid. I asking how far is China going to take it. As a viet, I wouldn't know. I am hoping for some Chinese insider. Because the information I gather is all over the place. Before Vietnam War, China had an expansionism attitude. Then it had the attitude of doing businesses with everyone. Now, it using it navy to patrol the entirety of the entire South China Sea and almost pushing into Indian Ocean. So how far will China go?? A war like the Chinese article said? Or just pushing and pushing with these oil rigs and then pull back when it got too tense. How far is China willing to go at least during the current time? I think I am speaking English. I don't know if you can understand me while I am being as clear as I am.

Just to be clear, I will actually take whatever you say seriously. So don't post stupid irrelevant shit like this again. I am ain't here to play the pointless dumbfuck flame war like I have seen on this thread.

Let me ask you this "how far is the US willing to go for world domination?" We have seen Vietnam War, 2 Wars in Iraq, Afghan War, US involvements in the ME, Africa. You should try to count how many countries the US has bombed for the past few decades. Is eager to bomb Syria and Iran too. Did i mention the US has blacksites all over the world? As a Viet living in the US don't you have anything to say about this rather pointing the finger at China how far it is willing to go?

 

[liubang]

Let me ask you this "how far is the US willing to go for world domination?" We have seen Vietnam War, 2 Wars in Iraq, Afghan War, US involvements in the ME, Africa. You should try to count how many countries the US has bombed for the past few decades. Is eager to bomb Syria and Iran too. Did i mention the US has blacksites all over the world? As a Viet living in the US don't you have anything to say about this rather pointing the finger at China how far it is willing to go?

Very far... In fact I am against the neocon. In fact, I don't think the USA is a moral agent in the past nor it is now. Only stupid people think we go to the Middle East to spread Democracy, or going to the Philippines to Christianize the heathens. If you want my opinions on that sure. But it would be off topic for this thread. Vietnam always had to chose one of two devils. They went to the USSR against France. And now, they want to drag America in via allying with Japan and Philippine to combat China. That is call the politics of a weak nation. I thought you guys would be well verse, I meant geez, you guys have the warring states and the 3 kingdoms.

I had spent the last few years defending China against every damn ignorant Western views. But during that whole time, I know China is just the same USA sooner or later. But I do believe the title of this thread has nothing to do with this. Feel free to send me messages in regard to this. But this isn't the 70s, at least in the perspective of Vietnam at the moment. Will Vietnam be like Bhutan where China occupy like 10% of its land. Or if China going far enough to Vietnam like it did with Tibet. I don't know. I was under the impression the Chinese citizens don't think the same way as their government do. But it turn out the Chinese are prideful and nationalistic like everyone else. And some surveys had indicate they are happy with the direction of their government. Unlike the viet who say shitty stuffs against the viet government over this whole issues. It seemed like the Chinese government had a bunch of cheerleaders online and elsewhere. Even the Chinese ethic viet in my family are very prideful of China. But yeah, if you don't want to answer, just say it and stop wasting my time.

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EDIT: The viet, the filipinos, the chinese, the westerners, etc. They are all wrong when they tackle this issues in a moral perspective. That is just plain stupid. There is no morality here. It doesn't matter if all the chinese maps are fake or if there is no ancient chinese on those islands. Might is right. And it always had been that way. But too bad, China isn't the sole power here.

 

[terranMarine]

Very far... In fact I am against the neocon. In fact, I don't think the USA is a moral agent in the past nor it is now. Only stupid people think we go to the Middle East to spread Democracy, or going to the Philippines to Christianize the heathens. If you want my opinions on that sure. But it would be off topic for this thread. Vietnam always had to chose one of two devils. They went to the USSR against America. And now, they want to drag America in via allying with Japan and Philippine to combat China. That is call the politics of a weak nation. I thought you guys would be well verse, I meant geez, we have the warring states and the 3 kingdoms.

I had spent the last few years defending China against every damn ignorant Western views. But during that whole time, I know China is just the same USA sooner or later. But I do believe the title of this thread has nothing to do with this. Feel free to send me messages in regard to this. But this isn't the 70s, at least in the perspective of Vietnam at the moment. Will Vietnam be like Bhutan where China occupy like 10% of its land. Or if China going far enough to Vietnam like it did with Tibet. I don't know. I was under the impression the Chinese citizens don't think the same way as their government do. But it turn out the Chinese are prideful and nationalistic like everyone else. And some surveys had indicate they are happy with the direction of their government. Unlike the viet who say shitty stuffs against the viet government over this whole issues. It seemed like the Chinese government had a bunch of cheerleaders online and elsewhere. Even the Chinese ethic viet in my family are very prideful of China. But yeah, if you don't want to answer, just say it and stop wasting my time.

The viet, the filipinos, the chinese, the westerners, etc. They are all wrong when they tackle this issues in a moral perspective. That is just plain stupid. There is no morality here. It doesn't matter if all the chinese maps are fake or if there is no ancient chinese on those islands. Might is right. And it always had been that way. But too bad, China isn't the sole power here.

Chinese are nationalistic just as everybody of every nation. The degree might vary and there are always those who don't care about politics, same with Chinese. But i disagree with you that China is the same as the US. You should know that China with a history of 5000 years as a civilization state hardly had the expansion drift like the British, Mongols or Europeans. All you have to do is look at the maps of the colonies of these Empires and you can see how far they went. With so many neighbors China only invaded Vietnam in the past and ruled your country for a very long time until Vietnam gained independence. Today Australia and America are ruled by people whose ancestors came from EU and the American foreign policies with its hegemony characteristics are no better than the Europeans back in those days, and i haven't even talked about slavery. I understand your worries for Vietnam but the border conflict between China and Vientam has already been solved. The only disputes left lies in SCS where other SE Asian countries also claim sovereignty of certain islands/shoals. I will not debate about sovereignty of these islands, it's pointless as you can tell by now. China's goals related to sovereignty are crystal clear: reducing American influence in SCS, gettng Taiwan back, Diaoyu island and dealing with the border conflict with India.

 

[Soryu]

Let me ask you this "how far is the US willing to go for world domination?" We have seen Vietnam War, 2 Wars in Iraq, Afghan War, US involvements in the ME, Africa. You should try to count how many countries the US has bombed for the past few decades. Is eager to bomb Syria and Iran too. Did i mention the US has blacksites all over the world? As a Viet living in the US don't you have anything to say about this rather pointing the finger at China how far it is willing to go?

So US does, and you must do like that !?

what are you going to do now?
why not either inhale the smog, jump off the window and end your useless life or join the PLA to start a war against Vietnam?

No need to talk with mock-grape, he's idiot clown want to troll around by his stupid, non-knowledge comments ...
Look at his avatar, dark-mask soldier... but only in here ...

 

[liubang]

Edit: can't post freaking links....

Chinese are nationalistic just as everybody of every nation. The degree might vary and there are always those who don't care about politics, same with Chinese. But i disagree with you that China is the same as the US. You should know that China with a history of 5000 years as a civilization state hardly had the expansion drift like the British, Mongols or Europeans. All you have to do is look at the maps of the colonies of these Empires and you can see how far they went. With so many neighbors China only invaded Vietnam in the past and ruled your country for a very long time until Vietnam gained independence.

This is not because China is benevolent but rather I believe there are 2 main factors. China always had northern aggressors whether it is the Xiongnu, to Khitan, to Mongolians. to Jurchens/Manchurians. The second factor is that it is hard to reign over millions upon millions of people. China didn't just become the most populous nation recently. It had always been that way. To quote the Three Kingdoms, "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been." It isn't easy to please 2 to 3 people much less millions and millions people. During the time when everyone is fed and that there is peace, and everyone happy. But when there are natural disaster, people are starving and unsatisfied , there will be unrest. Up course, usually dynasty rise and fall is also due to people in power is unsatisfied with what they have. But when the empire had a period of peace and flourish, it will turn to expansion.

This was China. (initially I have a picture of Xia and Shang dynasty)

compare to USA (meh initially I have a link to a USA map with all the Native American countries and tribes)

The China of today comprise of many many nations like that of the United states comprise of many many Native American countries. If you don't know where Vietnam was, let me tell you. Look at where the Burmese people used to live.

Google Van Lang and Nanyue.

If you can see there, Vietnam is where China's most southern tip was. So it would made sense that the people who first navigate South China Sea would be the Austronesian peoples that include the ancestors of the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, the ancient Champa kingdom, etc.

For each of the 55 ethnic minorities in China, there are ancient countries and kingdoms associate with them.

Zhuang- google Zhuang history
Nanzhao/Dali (the Bai people)- Yes I know Dali is conquered by the Mongolians but I don't believe the Bai people ever recover their own state after. There are plenty other examples like MinYue. Or even Taiwan and the Taiwanese aborigines, though their story is a bit more complicated.

EDIT: I was going to actually find out each one of the ethnic minority but it gonna take forever. Even during the warring states and Autumn Spring period, how many of those states are actually all han Chinese.

The sad part is some of our ancestor's remnant in term of archeology are in China's land right now.

Today Australia and America are ruled by people whose ancestors came from EU and the American foreign policies with its hegemony characteristics are no better than the Europeans back in those days, and i haven't even talked about slavery.

I think our viet identity really boil down to one thing over the 2 millennia is that we try really really really hard not to become Chinese. One of the biggest China's practices back in the day is cultural genocide. The Americans are extremely guilty about this one with the Native Americans. And the Manchurian kinda did this to the Han Chinese for a while. Although the Chinese didn't go as far as White people did, but I wonder if history turn out differently would they?? Sinocentrism is very much similar to the racist attitude that a lot of white racists have. A chinese just tell me the other day that the viet should thank China for bringing them out of barbarian and tribal phase. That is the same excuses that old colonist power give. That is the same rhetoric that some conservatives would say to black people over slavery. But how would you know if you never give that country a chance. I took this from wiki, "The history of Vietnam is one of the longest continuous histories in the world, with archaeological findings showing hominid settlements as far back as around half a million years ago and a cultural history of around 20,000 years. Ancient Vietnam was home to some of the world's earliest civilizations and societies—making them one of the world's first people who practiced agriculture." Our history may not be as old as the Chinese but we had deep root in history. If it wasn't for 1000 years of imperialism, couple hundred years of colonialism, and decades and decades of continuous warfare, Vietnam could been a very powerful regional power and no less than that of South Korea and Japan.

I understand your worries for Vietnam but the border conflict between China and Vientam has already been solved. The only disputes left lies in SCS where other SE Asian countries also claim sovereignty of certain islands/shoals. I will not debate about sovereignty of these islands, it's pointless as you can tell by now. China's goals related to sovereignty are crystal clear: reducing American influence in SCS, gettng Taiwan back, Diaoyu island and dealing with the border conflict with India.

Thank you for your post. At least this time around, there sound like some empathy between 2 people of different nationality. I really wish there is a NATO among ASEAN, and India getting a bit stronger to balance out China and USA in the region. But if you think the conflicts will stop there. It won't, China needs fuel. An economy of a billion people is not easy to manage. China had jeopardize its natural environment and now its image among ASEAN just to able to provide jobs for people and fueling the economy. Unless China mastered alternative energy, conflict will still arise. This is one thing I actually respect China over the USA, although it trashed its environment out of necessities. But China always think about the future and invest heavily on alternative energy. While our freaking politicians still argue over global warming.

 

[Grand Historian]

The China of today comprise of many many nations like that of the United states comprise of many many Native American countries. If you don't know where Vietnam was, let me tell you. Look at where the Burmese people used to live.

Not really,ever since the Qin-Han dynasty there was a concept of one "China" under an Emperor,efforts to revive Zhou era feudalism ie Rebellion of the 7 states were crushed.

That is the reason why there are no efforts to establish individual state today ie there are no acts of Chu,Zhao,Qin separatism.

Google Van Lang and Nanyue.

Van Lang doesn't exist,the first text to mention it was the Taiping Yulan written thousands of years after it supposed founding date.

Furthermore there is no archaeological backing for the Van Lang myth.

The Au Lac state is what Vietnamese claim heritage from so how can Nanyue be Vietnamese?

Refer to my earlier thread for a general FAQ.
Vietnamese nationalist fabrications

For each of the 55 ethnic minorities in China, there are ancient countries and kingdoms associate with them.

No there isn't, projecting a Han or minority identity on past states is simply erroneous as the ancients did not have the modern day perception of nationality/ethnicity.

Whether the outlying states of Chu,Wu,Yue,Shu and Ba identified with Sinitic states of the Central Plains is up to debate,rather the elite of these semi-barbaric states were most likely Sinicized or of Sinitic origin while the bulk of the population was multiethnic.

 

[liubang]

Not really,ever since the Qin-Han dynasty there was a concept of one "China" under an Emperor,efforts to revive Zhou era feudalism ie Rebellion of the 7 states were crushed.

That is the reason why there are no efforts to establish individual state today ie there are no acts of Chu,Zhao,Qin separatism.

Same shit as manifest destiny. Even if I give you China is Qin and Han. The current China encompassed still many ethnic kingdoms since the Han dynasty. China currently probably 2 to 3 times Han dynasty. There are separatist movements since the Han dynasty and there are still now.

Van Lang doesn't exist,the first text to mention it was the Taiping Yulan written thousands of years after it supposed founding date.

Furthermore there is no archaeological backing for the Van Lang myth.

The Au Lac state is what Vietnamese claim heritage from so how can Nanyue be Vietnamese?

Don't know what your point is from the overall of this thread nor how is it addressing my point of the post. Nanyue may not be vietnamese but is vietnamese as how the Chinese claimed the Qing dynasty is Chinese. Or how they try to rewrite history and claim Genghis Khan is Chinese. I don't need to refer back to your thread. Western historians had said vietnamese historians do not particularly have a truth perspective but rather a nationalistic perspective. They try too hard to tie ancient history to that of vietnamese history. Dong Son culture may not even belong to the Kinh Vietnamese. Likewise, whatever ancient craps that are found in China may not necessarily stem from the ancient Han Chinese. I don't think there is a strong enough link to said all those countries back during Spring Autumn are all HAN CHINESE. My point still stand. China was a tiny country. Its southern border changed all the time. Taiwan wasn't even populated by Han Chinese at one point. How can it claimed that it had navigate South China Sea much more so than the ancient Austronesian peoples.

I am a seeker of truth. What I can say is that the Viet did well to kept themselves separate from the Chinese and not just one of the 55 minorities in China. The trend of nationalism and tying identity to history past whether if there is kennel of truth or not just explain out identity. It is no more absurd than many things the chinese believe in ages past.

But what is your motive?? Trying to discredit every other points I have by bringing this up? Or are you trying to get me to admit what a shameful fake *** our history is? Those shit doesn't matter. Tran Hung Dao, Quang Trung, Ngo Quyen, Trung sisters, lady Trieu, Le Loi. As long as those are real it doesn't matter. I hope you are not baiting me.

But seemed you are someone I could learn from because you have at least proven yourself to me that you know what you are talking about. So I will ask the expert, how many kingdoms, dynasty, nations, and states that aren't started by Han Chinese that is right now in the current space that is People's Republic of China? I don't meant anything by this. It actually an intriguing thought for me and it just started since I began the conversation on this forum. To be honest, I was one of those ignorant person who don't think about these things prior to this.

And what is Han Chinese? When it came to existence? And what is Vietnamese according to your truth?

=============================================

Edit: I am debating if I am should entertain you further. Because it kinda derailing the topic of this thread, also if you don't know, I am more interested in current events. I only delve into this because a lot of people on the net seemed to think China had always been a benevolent, peaceful country that like never never into expansionism.

 

[liubang]

===================================================

PEOPLE I am new, I don't know how to send private messages. Anyhow, Grand Historian should send me a private message or something, I want your opinions on a few things just for the sake of my own education.

================================================
terranMarine- I believe this is on topic since Taiwan does matter to South China Sea. You mentioned that one of China's current goal is to get Taiwan back. How does China will go about this? Not straight up invasion right?? Is it planning to use some sort of democratic process or some sort of populace movement?? And how far do you think that is the reality that Taiwan will be back in China's hand. Look like a lot of Westerners are regretting giving HongKong back.

 

[Nike]

Not really,ever since the Qin-Han dynasty there was a concept of one "China" under an Emperor,efforts to revive Zhou era feudalism ie Rebellion of the 7 states were crushed.

That is the reason why there are no efforts to establish individual state today ie there are no acts of Chu,Zhao,Qin separatism.


Van Lang doesn't exist,the first text to mention it was the Taiping Yulan written thousands of years after it supposed founding date.

Furthermore there is no archaeological backing for the Van Lang myth.

The Au Lac state is what Vietnamese claim heritage from so how can Nanyue be Vietnamese?

Refer to my earlier thread for a general FAQ.
Vietnamese nationalist fabrications


No there isn't, projecting a Han or minority identity on past states is simply erroneous as the ancients did not have the modern day perception of nationality/ethnicity.

Whether the outlying states of Chu,Wu,Yue,Shu and Ba identified with Sinitic states of the Central Plains is up to debate,rather the elite of these semi-barbaric states were most likely Sinicized or of Sinitic origin while the bulk of the population was multiethnic.

We are discussing about South China Sea matter not about Ethnicity history or old man stories from you, **** off

Same shit as manifest destiny. Even if I give you China is Qin and Han. The current China encompassed still many ethnic kingdoms since the Han dynasty. China currently probably 2 to 3 times Han dynasty. There are separatist movements since the Han dynasty and there are still now.



Don't know what your point is from the overall of this thread nor how is it addressing my point of the post. Nanyue may not be vietnamese but is vietnamese as how the Chinese claimed the Qing dynasty is Chinese. Or how they try to rewrite history and claim Genghis Khan is Chinese. I don't need to refer back to your thread. Western historians had said vietnamese historians do not particularly have a truth perspective but rather a nationalistic perspective. They try too hard to tie ancient history to that of vietnamese history. Dong Son culture may not even belong to the Kinh Vietnamese. Likewise, whatever ancient craps that are found in China may not necessarily stem from the ancient Han Chinese. I don't think there is a strong enough link to said all those countries back during Spring Autumn are all HAN CHINESE. My point still stand. China was a tiny country. Its southern border changed all the time. Taiwan wasn't even populated by Han Chinese at one point. How can it claimed that it had navigate South China Sea much more so than the ancient Austronesian peoples.

I am a seeker of truth. What I can say is that the Viet did well to kept themselves separate from the Chinese and not just one of the 55 minorities in China. The trend of nationalism and tying identity to history past whether if there is kennel of truth or not just explain out identity. It is no more absurd than many things the chinese believe in ages past.

But what is your motive?? Trying to discredit every other points I have by bringing this up? Or are you trying to get me to admit what a shameful fake *** our history is? Those shit doesn't matter. Tran Hung Dao, Quang Trung, Ngo Quyen, Trung sisters, lady Trieu, Le Loi. As long as those are real it doesn't matter. I hope you are not baiting me.

But seemed you are someone I could learn from because you have at least proven yourself to me that you know what you are talking about. So I will ask the expert, how many kingdoms, dynasty, nations, and states that aren't started by Han Chinese that is right now in the current space that is People's Republic of China? I don't meant anything by this. It actually an intriguing thought for me and it just started since I began the conversation on this forum. To be honest, I was one of those ignorant person who don't think about these things prior to this.

And what is Han Chinese? When it came to existence? And what is Vietnamese according to your truth?

=============================================

Edit: I am debating if I am should entertain you further. Because it kinda derailing the topic of this thread, also if you don't know, I am more interested in current events. I only delve into this because a lot of people on the net seemed to think China had always been a benevolent, peaceful country that like never never into expansionism.

You too, you are derailing this topics. Stops your yaps about Vietnam ethnicity or so on