South China Sea Forum

[mycutegirl]

There are no Justice and Law in chinese blood, China should educate their people. specially those little young guys. they like robbing, they dont like to talk

i think its no necessary to talk with guys like you,image there's not a nation china inloved SCS dispute,do you think you,philipin&viet will be peace?
we have no patience and interest to talk or explain the SCS sovereign rights.
you completely free to distort、slander even abuse china govt or people,we answer you for manners.
but you cant change your weak govt and counterattack in SCS,and we can see,maybe chinese can totally disinterest dispute in SCS ,and viets try best to make a impassioned speach here,but whats the result,maybe decades later,chinese will watch a live show on TV that the PLAN expel the viets living on the SCS islanding which they robbing from china,and you viet can do nothing.

 

[xesy]

I hope Vietnam learn from this episode and start their nuclear weapon program right program right away. Because, the next time (there will be more )they won't be so lucky. With the North Korea help ($$) Vietnam can have a nuclear weapon in less than 10 years. Vietnam should not worry about economic sanction from the west as they had already survived one (USA embargo until 1994).

Who is Vietnam going to blame in 6-10 years, when China put them in a position that have they have to comply with its demand. The incompetent generals and politicians of today will then be in the ground or retirement home. Vietnam needs to create a weapon that the future generation can use to deter their enemy and be thankful for.

It is never simple as that when it comes to nuclear weapon.

As of now Japan is "one screw a way from nuclear weapon". Japan is capable of completing a nuke in 6 months, starts mass producing in 8 months. They can have ICBM in 8 months, mass produce in 12 months. But Japan does not take the step forward.

Nuclear weapon put too much power in a nation. It's never a mean to protect, but a mean to threat. The world is hanged from total destruction of an all out nuclear war because nations with nuke threat each other. The more countries join the nuclear circle, the more tension is built up. It's not comfortable living next to a neighbour having tons of explosive in his house, even if you too have some. The world must be careful when it come to countries which have nuke.

Also nuclear weapon is power. If too many countries have nuke then countries who already own nuke become less powerful. Their voices will not be as strong as before and they cannot allow that to happen. See what US is doing to NKorea and Iran to stop their nuclear program. And don't forget poor Iraq.

 

[TaiShang]

China sends note to UN chief to clarify Xisha situation

A Chinese envoy on Monday sent a note to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, presenting documents making clear Vietnam's provocation and China's stance regarding the Xisha Islands in the South China Sea.

In the note, Wang Min, China's deputy permanent representative to the United Nations, also asked Ban to circulate the documents, as UN General Assembly documents, among all UN member states...

"China sent the note to tell the international community the truth and set straight their understanding on the issue," Wang told reporters here after delivering China's second note to the UN chief on Vietnam's provocative actions on the sea. The first note was sent to Ban on May 22.

He noted that the actions of the Vietnamese side, which illegally and forcefully disrupted the Chinese operation, were serious infringements upon China's sovereignty, sovereign rights and jurisdiction, grave threats to the safety of Chinese personnel and the HYSY 981 drilling rig, and gross violations of the relevant international laws, including the Charter of the United Nations, the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) and 1988 Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Maritime Navigation and the Protocol for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Fixed Platforms Located on the Continental Shelf.

"Such actions also undermined the freedom and safety of navigation in these waters, and damaged peace and stability in the region," Wang added.

The Chinese envoy stressed that Xisha Islands are an inherent part of China's territory, over which there is no dispute.

Wang quoted the documents as saying that, prior to 1974, none of the successive Vietnamese governments had ever challenged China 's sovereignty over the Xisha Islands.

"Vietnam had officially recognized the Xisha Islands as part of China's territory since ancient times," he said. "This position was reflected in its government statements and notes as well as its newspapers, maps and textbooks."

But now, Wang noted, the Vietnamese government goes back on its word by making territorial claims over China's Xisha Islands, which is a gross violation of the principles of international law, including the principle of estoppel, and the basic norms governing international relations.

Wang also underlined that China is a staunch force for maintaining peace and stability in the South China Sea and promoting cooperation between and development of countries in the region.

He went on to say that China wants good relations with Vietnam, but there are principles that China cannot abandon.

Wang reiterated that China urges Vietnam to bear in mind the overall interests of the bilateral relations and peace and stability in the South China Sea, respect China's sovereignty, sovereign rights and jurisdiction, immediately stop all forms of disruptions of the Chinese operation and withdraw all vessels and personnel from the site, so as to ease the tension and restore tranquility at sea as early as possible.

"China will continue its effort to communicate with Vietnam with a view to properly addressing the current situation," he added.

 

[EastSea]

China sends note to UN chief to clarify Xisha situation

A Chinese envoy on Monday sent a note to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, presenting documents making clear Vietnam's provocation and China's stance regarding the Xisha Islands in the South China Sea.

In the note, Wang Min, China's deputy permanent representative to the United Nations, also asked Ban to circulate the documents, as UN General Assembly documents, among all UN member states...

"China sent the note to tell the international community the truth and set straight their understanding on the issue," Wang told reporters here after delivering China's second note to the UN chief on Vietnam's provocative actions on the sea. The first note was sent to Ban on May 22.

He noted that the actions of the Vietnamese side, which illegally and forcefully disrupted the Chinese operation, were serious infringements upon China's sovereignty, sovereign rights and jurisdiction, grave threats to the safety of Chinese personnel and the HYSY 981 drilling rig, and gross violations of the relevant international laws, including the Charter of the United Nations, the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) and 1988 Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Maritime Navigation and the Protocol for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Fixed Platforms Located on the Continental Shelf.

"Such actions also undermined the freedom and safety of navigation in these waters, and damaged peace and stability in the region," Wang added.

The Chinese envoy stressed that Xisha Islands are an inherent part of China's territory, over which there is no dispute.

Wang quoted the documents as saying that, prior to 1974, none of the successive Vietnamese governments had ever challenged China 's sovereignty over the Xisha Islands.

"Vietnam had officially recognized the Xisha Islands as part of China's territory since ancient times," he said. "This position was reflected in its government statements and notes as well as its newspapers, maps and textbooks."

But now, Wang noted, the Vietnamese government goes back on its word by making territorial claims over China's Xisha Islands, which is a gross violation of the principles of international law, including the principle of estoppel, and the basic norms governing international relations.

Wang also underlined that China is a staunch force for maintaining peace and stability in the South China Sea and promoting cooperation between and development of countries in the region.

He went on to say that China wants good relations with Vietnam, but there are principles that China cannot abandon.

Wang reiterated that China urges Vietnam to bear in mind the overall interests of the bilateral relations and peace and stability in the South China Sea, respect China's sovereignty, sovereign rights and jurisdiction, immediately stop all forms of disruptions of the Chinese operation and withdraw all vessels and personnel from the site, so as to ease the tension and restore tranquility at sea as early as possible.

"China will continue its effort to communicate with Vietnam with a view to properly addressing the current situation," he added.

.
China’s southeastern border ends at Hainan Island: Chinese Emperor’s map
VietNamNet Bridge – Another ancient document showing that China’s southeastern frontier ends at the Hainan Island has been found: a map that was drawn at the order of Emperor Kangxi of the Qing Dynasty in 1717.

An electronic version taken of the original map kept in the British Library. The photo is provided by the Library.

China’s territory included land and waters where Chinese emperors had sovereignty over and controlled. Therefore, the easiest way to see China’s official territory is to consider China’s historical documents or Chinese maps published by Chinese emperors.

The map that was drawn and published at the order of Emperor Kangxi in 1717 is such evidence. This is an official document of China, with international values that China can use to determine their sovereign lands.

This article aims to identify an event that Emperor Kangxi sent Western Jesuits everywhere for topographic surveying and mapping of the Qing Dynasty’s territory.

This work took almost 10 years and its result was the map of China entitled “Huangyu quan lan tu” in 1717.

According to this map, the southeastern border of China ends at the Hainan Island. This is a new contribution because the maps by the Qing Dynasty that have been used so far have unknown origin and are unofficial.

On March 28, 2014, the German Chancellor Angela Merkel gave the copy of the map drawn by Jean-Baptiste Bourguignon d'Anville and printed in Germany in 1735 to Chinese President Xi Jinping.

Introduction

The Huangyu quan lan tu map.

Before 1909, the Chinese government had not regarded the islands and the East Sea out of the southern island of Hainan as their waters and islands. At the same time, the Nguyen Lords and then Emperor Gia Long of Vietnam sent soldiers to the Paracel Islands.

This is recorded in the book “Phu Bien Tap Luc” by historian Le Quy Don (written from 1776-1784), in the official history in 1848, and foreigners also recorded the statement of sovereignty by Emperor Gia Long over the Paracel and Spratly Islands in an article published in 1837, and there were no objections from China.

Notably, many Chinese scholars have not used official historical documents or the official maps of the Chinese dynasties, especially the last Qing Dynasty to determine where the official border of China is. They have only used documents by travelers and explorers who only passed through and noted down what they heard. The maps they have used were all drawn by individuals, and not official maps.

To identify whether China previously considered Paracel and Spratly Islands as their territories, we should research the official historical documents of the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644), the Qing Dynasty (1644-1912) and the official maps of these two dynasties, because according to the International Court of Justice in 1933, the intention, will and effective implementation of the sovereignty must be at least identified in official historical documents and official documents.

The history of the Ming Dynasty and Qing Dynasty showed that China’s border ends at the Hainan Island. They did not care about the Southeast Asia Sea beyond Hainan, so China cannot say that the East Sea is their long historical area.

The documents noted by individuals are not considered evidence for sovereignty of their country in the areas where they passed.

In the Qing Dynasty, the Hainan Island included Qiong Zhu and Zhu Ya, later merged into the Qiong province. Thus the Paracel and Spratly Islands are not located within China’s border.

At that time, Vietnam’s Nguyen Lords (1558 - 1777) and the Nguyen Dynasty (1802-1862) exercised their continuous sovereignty over these islands without being opposed by China.

Under international law, a claimant for sovereignty based on the continuous exercise of sovereignty consists of two elements, and must prove that each element shows the intention and will to act as the owner, and some activities to prove that ownership.

In the case of Vietnam, the activities of Nguyen Lords in Paracel Islands were recorded by Vietnamese famous historian Le Quy Don in the official historical book entitled “Phu Bien Tap Luc”, and King Gia Long’s claims of sovereignty over the Paracels were recorded by Frenchman Taberd and published in 1837. The activities exercising Vietnam’s sovereignty over Paracel Islands conducted by the emperors after the death of Emperor Gia Long were also recorded in the official history.

Official map of Qing Dynasty

The Da qing yi tong quan tu map.


There are many ancient Chinese maps published in China until the end of the Qing Dynasty that did not consider Paracel and Spratly Islands as Chinese territory.

The map below is the official map of the Qing Dynasty that was drawn by Western priests at the order of Emperor Kangxi (1644-1912) over 10 years.

Therefore, the purpose of this article is to examine this map. We can say this is the first time this map is reviewed for the purpose of determining the border of China.

According to the article “Traditional Chinese Cartography and the Myth of Westernization” by Cordell DK Yee, before the Jesuit Matteo Ricci (1552-1610) and Michelle Ruggieri (1543-1607) went to Guangdong in 1583 for missionaries, the Chinese knew how to use squares to express the spacing on the map, but they did not know that the earth is not flat, but spherical, and they did not know how to use the Ptolemaic system for expression.

Priest Matteo Ricci introduced the precise technical drawing of the West into China and considered it as the way to carry missionary work. Ricci redrew the map of China based on Chinese information, using Western drawing principles.

These maps just copied the available information, not based on topographic surveying. Some Chinese were interested in these maps and reprinted them. However, they changed the maps by their artistic vision since, at that time, Chinese intellectuals considered maps as art objects like paintings and calligraphic works, not precise sciences.

Even Ricci put China in the middle of the world map, presumably to make the Chinese happy. Emperor Kangxi was very interested in Western science, like mathematics and astronomy. He built an observatory in 1644 and decided to use a western calendar from 19/10/1644 because it was more accurate.

In 1698 the Jesuits asked for Emperor Kangxi’s approval to measure topography of China to draw the Chinese map, saying that the old maps were inaccurate and even misleading.

According to Cordell D.K. Yee, in 1698, after hearing the proposal by Jesuit Dominique Parenin (1665-1759), Emperor Kangxi asked Joachim Bouvet (1656-1730) to return to France to recruit those who had good knowledge of astronomy, mathematics, geography and topography measurements and take them to China to help redraw China’s map.

He returned to China with 10 specialists. Emperor Kangxi asked these people to draw the map of Tianjin in 1705. The task was completed in 70 days. In 1707 the emperor told French specialists to draw the map of the area around Beijing, which was completed in six months. In 1708, they were instructed to draw the Great Wall and the task was completed in 1709.

After considering the above maps, Emperor Kangxi found that the Western techniques in mapping were much better than the traditional way of China so he assigned the Western Jesuits to draw the map of entire China. This map was completed in 1717, called the “Huangyu quan lan tu”.

This map is mentioned in the historical book of the Qing Dynasty – Qing shi gao - as follows: "In the Kangxi 58th year, the entire map is completed. This is a comprehensive map consisting of 32 sheets. There are separate maps of provinces, one sheet for one province.”

The "Qing shi gao” is though not entirely the official history because it was completed in 1927 after the Qing Dynasty had fallen, but it was compiled at the order by the Qing King so it can be considered official.

The woodblock print by proportion 1:1.200.000 in 1721 also has 32 sheets, one sheet for each province, just like the map in 1719. This woodblock was sent by the Western Jesuits to Europe and it was used as the basis for the book “Description, Geographique, Historique, Chronologique, Politique, et Physique de l'empire de la Chine” (1735) by Du Halde and the book “Nouvel atlas de la Chine” by JB Bourguignon.

In 1726, the Kang Hsi Imperial Encyclopedia was completed, consisting of 216 administrative area maps, without Mongolia and Tibetan. These maps were similar as the maps drawn by the Jesuits, but not having the longitude and latitude lines.

The Kang Hsi Imperial Encyclopedia was printed by the Qing Dynasty in 1728, with 5,020 episodes, including illustrations and writings from the earliest times to the modern period, written under the Kangxi and Yongzheng dynasties. This encyclopedia includes 800,000 pages and 100 million words and there are only 60 printed copies.

The Chinese map was reprinted in Traditional Chinese Cartography and the Myth of Westernization by Cordell DK Yee as mentioned above (see photo). The photo also shows that the Chinese territory to the southeast ends at the Hainan Island.

The “Huangyu quan lan tu” map is the foundation for other maps published later in China, which do not have clear origin.

Here are some maps that are kept in Western libraries, which can be referred to online. All show that China or Guangdong province does not have the Paracel or Spratly Islands:

1. Huang yu quan lan fen sheng tu map is archived in the US Library of Congress. This map can be found online. This map was donated to the US Library of Congress in 1884, and the year of publication is 1693. The map was drawn by Western principles so it could not be made before the Emperor Kangxi asked Western priests to draw the new China’s map in 1705. The year of publication 1693 should be a mistake. The map must be drawn after 1717, after the Huangyu quan lan tu map was printed and it seems to be a copy.

2. Da qing yi tong quan tu map is currently stored in the National Library of Australia. This map, based on analysis by Cordell DK Yee (mentioned above) as well as maps in the Kang Hsi Imperial Encyclopedia, are just the copies of the official map Huangyu quan lan tu, without the two provinces of Xinjiang and Tibet, but it was drawn in the combined style of Western and Chinese. This map consists of 12 individual parts; part 1 is the whole of China; part 12 is Guangdong, which ends at the Hainan Island.

3. Huangyu Quantu is the official map published in late Qing Dynasty. In 1890 the Qing government wanted to standardize the mapping of provinces and administrative regions so it set up “huidianquan” and told these huidianquan to draw local maps, using the Western method, but many localities redrew the maps based on the maps of the Jesuits because they did not understand the drawing principles.

As a result, the Huangyu Quantu, 1899, in Qinding Da Qing huidian, includes 24 sets (Beijing Huidianguan, 1899). It is the official map because it was printed by Huidianguan.

Conclusion

It can be concluded that there is a map that was drawn by Western Jesuits at the order of Emperor Kangxi, i.e., China used to have a formal map.

According to this map, China’s border ends at the island of Hainan and nothing has changed then. This is also consistent with the history of China during the Ming Dynasty (History of Ming) and the Qing Dynasty (Draft History of Qing).

Ho Bach Thao, a Vietnamese researcher, had researched the History of Ming and the Draft History of Qing and found that these books did not mention Paracel and Spratly Islands and also showed that China’s border ends at Hainan Island.

The China map with the nine-dash line was made in 1947 by Bai Meichu, an official of the Chinese People's Republic (now Taiwan).

This homemade map that does not reflect the true history of China’s border, which has been used by the Chinese state, contrary to international law, to claim its sovereignty over the islands and sea areas within the U-shaped line, covering up to 85% of the East Sea.

They have used unorthodox and vague materials about the waters where Chinese people passed to prove that these waters belong to China from the Han Dynasty (206 BC - 220 AD).

This claim is completely contrary to the history of the Ming and Qing Dynasties and the map drawn at the order of the Qing Emperor Kangxi, which was drawn over 10 years by Western priests.

Until 1909, China - and only the government of Guangdong province - sent people to learn about the Paracel and it was not until 1952 that Zhou Enlai raised claims over the Spratly Islands for the first time.

Given that, Paracel and Spratly belonging to China since ancient times is fabricated and untrue.

Vu Quang Viet

 

[fromdesert]

Chinese guys take a shout loudly "all is ours...all is ours from 2,200 year before" OMG. china leaders like above so here some chinese guys try to brainwash every body.

 

[fromdesert]

9 dash lines is child's play. if you have 2 maps from difference publishers of china, I am sure that 9 dash lines are not the same because they are no coordinate, they base on nothing.

 

[xesy]

China always wants to become a big brother. And here is China:
Power: checked.
Authority: checked.
Responsibility: not checked.
It seems the one-child policy make China forget how to be a brother/sister.

 

[fromdesert]

i think its no necessary to talk with guys like you,image there's not a nation china inloved SCS dispute,do you think you,philipin&viet will be peace?
we have no patience and interest to talk or explain the SCS sovereign rights.
you completely free to distort、slander even abuse china govt or people,we answer you for manners.
but you cant change your weak govt and counterattack in SCS,and we can see,maybe chinese can totally disinterest dispute in SCS ,and viets try best to make a impassioned speach here,but whats the result,maybe decades later,chinese will watch a live show on TV that the PLAN expel the viets living on the SCS islanding which they robbing from china,and you viet can do nothing.

Not only china has not sovereign in SCS but china also has not anything there, here are some ancient china maps.
please look South Morning Post writes what phillipines said
Chinese guys do not talk, because they are wrong, They cant explain, they fear the trust, real and law.

 

[Nike]

I hope Vietnam learn from this episode and start their nuclear weapon program right program right away. Because, the next time (there will be more )they won't be so lucky. With the North Korea help ($$) Vietnam can have a nuclear weapon in less than 10 years. Vietnam should not worry about economic sanction from the west as they had already survived one (USA embargo until 1994).

Who is Vietnam going to blame in 6-10 years, when China put them in a position that have they have to comply with its demand. The incompetent generals and politicians of today will then be in the ground or retirement home. Vietnam needs to create a weapon that the future generation can use to deter their enemy and be thankful for.

is not wise and very stupid idea, ASEAN will expel Vietnam for sure if they suddenly arming themselves with Nuke, we had conclude the agreement about ASEAN is nuke free region and organizations. And Vietnam will lose more diplomatic support for their cause in South China Sea. And all of their economic advance will be halted because of embargoed and sanctions put by international community just like Iran and North Korea suffer till now. In the end, is Vietnam people who will suffer not the China not the international community.

 

[EastSea]

is not wise and very stupid idea, ASEAN will expel Vietnam for sure if they suddenly arming themselves with Nuke, we had conclude the agreement about ASEAN is nuke free region and organizations. And Vietnam will lose more diplomatic support for their cause in South China Sea. And all of their economic advance will be halted because of embargoed and sanctions put by international community just like Iran and North Korea suffer till now. In the end, is Vietnam people who will suffer not the China not the international community.

don't worry bro, nuke ? it is our last cart.

 

[mycutegirl]

I hope Vietnam learn from this episode and start their nuclear weapon program right program right away. Because, the next time (there will be more )they won't be so lucky. With the North Korea help ($$) Vietnam can have a nuclear weapon in less than 10 years. Vietnam should not worry about economic sanction from the west as they had already survived one (USA embargo until 1994).

Who is Vietnam going to blame in 6-10 years, when China put them in a position that have they have to comply with its demand. The incompetent generals and politicians of today will then be in the ground or retirement home. Vietnam needs to create a weapon that the future generation can use to deter their enemy and be thankful for.

viet developing nuke techs is a good excuse for china,even USA to overthrow the viet's govt with the use of force.

 

[EastSea]

viet developing nuke techs is a good excuse for china,even USA to overthrow the viet's govt with the use of force.

aggressive china is excuse for that USA transfer nuke technology to Viet.

BEIJING - The "advanced negotiations" between the United States and Vietnam to share nuclear fuel and technology disrupt international stability, Chinese analysts have said.

"The US is used to employing double standards when dealing with different countries ... as a global power that has promoted denuclearization, it has challenged its own reputation and disturbed the preset international order," said Teng Jianqun, deputy-director of the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, on Thursday.

US-Vietnam nuke deal 'destabilizing'

 

[Zero_wing]

Gayjing is stupid dont worry too much my vietnamese friend you kick their imperial behinds ones heck did that too so no problem this this time you got world backing

 

[cirr]

CCG 3402 launched on 13.06.2014 at HPS

More pics when available。

 

[TaiShang]

CCG 3402 launched on 13.06.2014 at HPS

More pics when available。

I think the mighty Viet Navy will sight that before anybody else. Damn, they are a lucky bunch!