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South China Sea Forum

R&R activities with our neighbor on Song Tu Tay island

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What is Vietnam thinking? China and the US is participating in military exercise called "Rimpac" and the least Vietnam could do is have her own military exercise. No, Vietnam decides to have a party. How can Vietnam expect other nations to voice their support for Vietnam if it is too busy having a party.
 
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What is Vietnam thinking? China and the US is participating in military exercise called "Rimpac" and the least Vietnam could do is have her own military exercise. No, Vietnam decides to have a party. How can Vietnam expect other nations to voice their support for Vietnam if it is too busy having a party.
Vietnam is in a situation where she cannot freely mobilizing her force around without getting a respond from China. Especially when specialists around the world expect a navy clash between Vietnam and China. Furthermore, China put their fleet at Hainan ready, and can reach Vietnam mainland in less than 1 hour. Vietnam does not have the freedom to do as you say.
 
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SC justice debunks China sea claims
By Edu Punay (The Philippine Star) | Updated June 10, 2014 - 12:00am

MANILA, Philippines - China’s own ancient maps would debunk its supposed “historical” claims over disputed areas in the West Philippine Sea, according to a senior magistrate of the Supreme Court (SC).

In his recent lecture at the De La Salle University-College of Law, Senior Associate Justice Antonio Carpio said an examination of such maps would show that the “historical facts” being claimed by China do not exist.

“All these ancient maps show that since the first Chinese maps appeared, the southernmost territory of China has always been Hainan island, with its ancient names being Zhuya, then Qiongya, and thereafter Qiongzhou,” he stressed.

The magistrate said this shows that Hainan island, which was for centuries a part of Guangdong until 1988 when it became a separate province, is the boundary of the Chinese territory in the Southeast Asian region.

Carpio said even the maps of the Philippines and other countries also did not show the contested islands as part of China.

He recalled that China only claimed its alleged “historical facts” as basis for its maritime claims in the South China Sea after the Philippines filed in January 2013 an arbitration case against it before an international tribunal, invoking UNCLOS (United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea).

Headlines ( Article MRec ), pagematch: 1, sectionmatch: 1
The SC justice also pointed out that the use of “South China Sea” as basis for China’s historical claims holds no water.

“The South China Sea was not even named by the Chinese but by European navigators and cartographers. The Song and Ming Dynasties called the South China Sea the ‘Giao Chi Sea,’ and the Qing Dynasty, the Republic of China as well as the People’s Republic of China call it the ‘South Sea’ without the word ‘China’,” he pointed out.

Citing foundations of international law by Hugo Grotius in the early 17th century, he said that “the oceans and seas of our planet belonged to all mankind, and no nation could claim ownership to the oceans and seas.”

“India cannot claim the Indian Ocean, and Mexico cannot claim the Gulf of Mexico, in the same way that the Philippines cannot claim the Philippine Sea, just because historically these bodies of water have been named after these countries,” he further stressed.

Lastly, Carpio explained that historical facts dating back to the age of discovery in the early 15th century until the 17th century or even earlier “have no bearing whatsoever in the resolution of maritime disputes under UNCLOS.”

The magistrate reiterated that China’s claim of a “historical right” to the waters enclosed within the 9-dash lines in the South China Sea is utterly without basis under international law.

He explained that UNCLOS had extinguished all historical rights of other states within the 200-nautical mile exclusive economic zone of the adjacent coastal state.


This, he said, is the reason why the zone is called “exclusive,” as no state other than the adjacent coastal state can exploit economically its resources.

China claims that Panatag (Scarborough) Shoal, which it branded Huangyan Island, is the Nanhai island that 13th century Chinese astronomer-engineer-mathematician Guo Shoujing allegedly visited in 1279 on orders from Kublai Khan – the first emperor of the Yuan Dynasty – to conduct a survey of the Four Seas to update the Sung Dynasty calendar system.

This supposed visit of Gou Shoujing to Panatag Shoal in 1279 is the only historical association of China with the shoal.

But in his speech during the 19th National Convention and Seminar of the Philippine Women Judges Association last March, Carpio stressed that China already used the same claim in its dispute with Vietnam over the Paracels.

He also cited a Jan. 30, 1980 document entitled “China’s Sovereignty Over Xisha and Zhongsa Islands Is Indisputable” published in Beijing Review, in which the country’s foreign ministry officially declared that the Nanhai island that Guo Shoujing visited in 1279 was in Xisha or what is internationally called the Paracels, a group of islands more than 380 nautical miles from Panatag Shoal.

Carpio said Guo could not have gone ashore to “visit” the shoal because “it was just a rock, with no vegetation, and did not even have enough space to accommodate an expedition party.”

The SC justice also argued that a state may only claim “historical rights” over waters that are part of its internal waters or territorial sea.

He also said China failed to satisfy any of the conditions to claim historical rights under the general principles and rules of international law, such as formal announcement to the international community, continuous exercise of sovereignty over the waters it claims as its own internal waters or territorial sea, and recognition from other states.

He added that China’s 9-dash line claim was “never effectively enforced.”


Since last year, Carpio had been bringing up the West Philippine Sea issue in a number of public speeches.

In a speech before members of the Philippine Bar Association in August last year, Carpio expressed fear that territorial claims over disputed areas of the West Philippine Sea could end up being dictated by naval strength and not by the rule of law, citing the tendency of China to ignore arbitration proceedings.

In a speech three months earlier before law students of the Pamantasan ng Lungsod ng Maynila, Carpio noted that under the United Nations Charter, the International Court of Justice can ask the UN Security Council to enforce its decision. The International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea or ITLOS is also a UN body.

Carpio wrote the Supreme Court decision that unanimously affirmed the constitutionality of the Philippine Archipelagic Baselines law of 2009, beating an UNCLOS deadline.

Diplomacy vs aggression

At Malacañang, presidential spokesman Edwin Lacierda said the administration would continue to match China’s growing aggressiveness with diplomacy.

“People seem to underestimate... the power of the diplomatic track but there has been a growing approval from the international community,” Lacierda said in a press briefing.

“We believe that with the international community’s support, we can persuade China to act as a responsible member of the international community,” he added.

He said they still have to verify a report from the South China Morning Post that China would establish a military base after the planned expansion of an artificial island located on Kagitingan (Fiery Cross) Reef.

Chinese Naval Research Institute expert Li Jie was quoted in the SCMP report as saying that the military base would feature an airstrip and a port. The base will also have storage for military supplies. China has already constructed an observation post on the reef, the report said.

Jin Canrong, a professor of international relations in Renmin University in Beijing, said in the same report that the artificial island would be twice the size of the US military base in Diego Garcia, which occupies an area of 44 square kilometers in the Indian Ocean.

Jin also said that the proposal to construct the artificial island was submitted to the Chinese central government and that its approval would depend on the progress of reclamation on Mabini (Johnson South) Reef. – Aurea Calica, Pia Lee-Brago

SC justice debunks China sea claims | Headlines, News, The Philippine Star | philstar.com
 
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Vietnam is in a situation where she cannot freely mobilizing her force around without getting a respond from China. Especially when specialists around the world expect a navy clash between Vietnam and China. Furthermore, China put their fleet at Hainan ready, and can reach Vietnam mainland in less than 1 hour. Vietnam does not have the freedom to do as you say.
Since the Vietnam war, I dont recall Vietnam participating in any military exercises with any countries. China, on the other hand have participated in countless military exercise with western countries. Discounting military hardware, China has more experience than Vietnam in naval warfare.


Strange thing is, North Korea which have smaller military budget than Vietnam does as it please without fear of China.
 
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North Korea ever exercised with others? Vietnam same. Vietnamese troops also produced foods for themselves anywhere they located.
 
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Since the Vietnam war, I dont recall Vietnam participating in any military exercises with any countries. China, on the other hand have participated in countless military exercise with western countries. Discounting military hardware, China has more experience than Vietnam in naval warfare.


Strange thing is, North Korea which have smaller military budget than Vietnam does as it please without fear of China.
Didn't Vietnam have a live-fire drill with US last year or the year before last? Vietnam always wants to maintain a peac-loving image so she restrains from building a strong army, just keep it at a capable level (now it turns around and bits her).

To be honest, North Korea is a pupet of China. We used to joke about how North Korea former PM called Beijing before he made decisions, even what he would have for lunch (not so sure now, as Kim Jong Un replaced his father, North Korea is not as hostile toward the West as before). Jokes aside, North Korea has smaller military bidget, but a much larger force, 1 million ground troops if I am not mistaken. North Korea has an unhealthy economy, focusing only on heavy industry, medical and military, ignoring education, cultivation and light industry. Simply put, NK puts around 1/3 of its earned money on military, while in Vietnam the number is around 10%(or less, I am not sure). And most importantly, NK has nukes.
 
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Didn't Vietnam have a live-fire drill with US last year or the year before last? Vietnam always wants to maintain a peac-loving image so she restrains from building a strong army, just keep it at a capable level (now it turns around and bits her).

To be honest, North Korea is a pupet of China. We used to joke about how North Korea former PM called Beijing before he made decisions, even what he would have for lunch (not so sure now, as Kim Jong Un replaced his father, North Korea is not as hostile toward the West as before). Jokes aside, North Korea has smaller military bidget, but a much larger force, 1 million ground troops if I am not mistaken. North Korea has an unhealthy economy, focusing only on heavy industry, medical and military, ignoring education, cultivation and light industry. Simply put, NK puts around 1/3 of its earned money on military, while in Vietnam the number is around 10%(or less, I am not sure). And most importantly, NK has nukes.
The drill you are talking about, has to do with search and rescue at sea, nothing military about that as no weapon were involved. Its a pretty useful exercise, after the enemies have sunken your ships and you need to save your sailors. Ho chi minh was quoted as saying that he rather kiss an American *** for ten years than smell Chinese sh1t for 1000 years. Its funny that the apple has fallen so far from the apple tree. I wonder what Vietnam would be like if he had live for another 20 years.
 
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What is Vietnam thinking? China and the US is participating in military exercise called "Rimpac" and the least Vietnam could do is have her own military exercise. No, Vietnam decides to have a party. How can Vietnam expect other nations to voice their support for Vietnam if it is too busy having a party.
Viets are backstabbers. First they aggressively try to disrupt China's oil drilling in our own waters then they try to fool other countries like Indonesia into fighting and dying for their lies. Meanwhile they are partying and laughing at other countries fighting China for them. When the fight is over, they will invade those other countries that tried to help them. Look at how Vietnam invaded Cambodia and Laos after both countries helped Vietnam in their time of need during the war against USA.
 
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^ LOL at a Pinoy judge. Go back to being a servant.

Chinese judges have already ruled. The South China Sea legally belongs to China. There is no further dispute.

Now we can legally unleash our nuclear arsenal on our enemies!
 
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Dongmenjiao(Hughes Reef):yesteryear、yesterday and today:

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The future is bright,the future is orange。:enjoy:
 
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Have you seen any smaller and weaker countries invading bigger and more powerful countries? When Germany invaded CCCP, Germany had already put the whole Europe (expect for UK) and North Africa in their pocket. Japan and 7 other countries joined force before taking down the Quin dynasty China. Israel had advanced weaponry and was backed up by the US before they attacked Iran.

It's very logical for China to play the victim, for the "Peacful Rise". While China is still counting the number of ramming, we lost count already. China ships ram and fire water cannon at Vietnam ships on daily basis, who care any more. Now we care about how many ships China will sink before Chinese citizens realize they are the aggressor.
Vietnam tried to attack China because you thought Putin will back you up. Just like you thought Soviet Union would back you up in 1979. Now you are humiliated because everybody laughs at you while China spanks mercilessly. Even Putin is laughing at the stupid Viets who gave all their money to buy weapons.

Soon our tanks will roll into Hanoi and Saigon. Then it is time for the real slaughter to begin!
 
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The drill you are talking about, has to do with search and rescue at sea, nothing military about that as no weapon were involved. Its a pretty useful exercise, after the enemies have sunken your ships and you need to save your sailors. Ho chi minh was quoted as saying that he rather kiss an American *** for ten years than smell Chinese sh1t for 1000 years. Its funny that the apple has fallen so far from the apple tree. I wonder what Vietnam would be like if he had live for another 20 years.
Funny, can you source what Uncle Ho said? Ho Chi Minh admited that he was a nationalist before a communist, so he did what was best for Vietnam. Many Vietnamese are not happy with what our govt is doing now, but we have few choices left.
Viets are backstabbers. First they aggressively try to disrupt China's oil drilling in our own waters then they try to fool other countries like Indonesia into fighting and dying for their lies. Meanwhile they are partying and laughing at other countries fighting China for them. When the fight is over, they will invade those other countries that tried to help them. Look at how Vietnam invaded Cambodia and Laos after both countries helped Vietnam in their time of need during the war against USA.
Let's leave at that who is the backstabber, China or Vietnam. Too many posts have argued about that.

I will try to be logical here. If China was putting the rig in her water, then the flow of events should be: China deploys the rig with a small number of transport ships, Vietnam reacts and sends ships to force China rig to leave, China sends more ships to protect the rig. But in fact, from the beginning China sends over 80 ships with the rig including warships and fighters, way overkill if you ask me. It's is illogical that a civil operation like deploying a rig should be accompanied by warships. Or China has warships escort the rig even in its water? China must have expected Vietnam to react violently to bring warships with the rig. And when Vietnam did not fall for their trap, China then take the aggressive side and provoke Vietnam to fight back. If Vietnam fights back, China can use its navy. If not, then Vietnam ships are damaged. Either way China wins.

Vietnam was the major force fighting the US in the Vietnam war. Cambodia and Laos were used as bases of operation, no more. Vietnam did not conscript Laos or Cambodia citizens and force them to fight in South Vietnam. And we fought the Khmer Rogue because they provoked and massacred Vietnamese first. If China can call the 1979 war Counter Offensive, why can't Vietnam use the same reason to call the Vietnam Cambodia war?
 
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Vietnam tried to attack China because you thought Putin will back you up. Just like you thought Soviet Union would back you up in 1979. Now you are humiliated because everybody laughs at you while China spanks mercilessly. Even Putin is laughing at the stupid Viets who gave all their money to buy weapons.

Soon our tanks will roll into Hanoi and Saigon. Then it is time for the real slaughter to begin!
So much for a peac-loving country, eh, China?
Even if we are backed up, we are still the one who fight and die. Just because somebody gives you a weapon, you have to go out and start a shoot out with the police? What kind of moron to do that, and to bilieve someone would do that?

The world did not laugh at us, but at China who is crying in the UN about Vietnam bullying its rig.
 
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Funny, can you source what Uncle Ho said? Ho Chi Minh admited that he was a nationalist before a communist, so he did what was best for Vietnam. Many Vietnamese are not happy with what our govt is doing now, but we have few choices left.

Let's leave at that who is the backstabber, China or Vietnam. Too many posts have argued about that.

I will try to be logical here. If China was putting the rig in her water, then the flow of events should be: China deploys the rig with a small number of transport ships, Vietnam reacts and sends ships to force China rig to leave, China sends more ships to protect the rig. But in fact, from the beginning China sends over 80 ships with the rig including warships and fighters, way overkill if you ask me. It's is illogical that a civil operation like deploying a rig should be accompanied by warships. Or China has warships escort the rig even in its water? China must have expected Vietnam to react violently to bring warships with the rig. And when Vietnam did not fall for their trap, China then take the aggressive side and provoke Vietnam to fight back. If Vietnam fights back, China can use its navy. If not, then Vietnam ships are damaged. Either way China wins.

Vietnam was the major force fighting the US in the Vietnam war. Cambodia and Laos were used as bases of operation, no more. Vietnam did not conscript Laos or Cambodia citizens and force them to fight in South Vietnam. And we fought the Khmer Rogue because they provoked and massacred Vietnamese first. If China can call the 1979 war Counter Offensive, why can't Vietnam use the same reason to call the Vietnam Cambodia war?
Viets are backstabbers. First they aggressively try to disrupt China's oil drilling in our own waters then they try to fool other countries like Indonesia into fighting and dying for their lies. Meanwhile they are partying and laughing at other countries fighting China for them. When the fight is over, they will invade those other countries that tried to help them. Look at how Vietnam invaded Cambodia and Laos after both countries helped Vietnam in their time of need during the war against USA.
Even Australia is wary of Indonesia's military buildup.
 
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^ LOL at a Pinoy judge. Go back to being a servant.

Chinese judges have already ruled. The South China Sea legally belongs to China. There is no further dispute.

Now we can legally unleash our nuclear arsenal on our enemies!
Using nuclear weapon is always illegal. You are welcome to do so if you are ready to take punishments from the whole world. So much for a peac-loving country, bring nuke around to scare people. You are giving us reasons to develop or buy nuke of our own.
 
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