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that is your view not mine. As you know, first, Han people do not mean Chinese in China. I´ve learned from a Chinese member, the term "Han" is more a cultural umbrella than a definition of ethnics. The Vietnamese elites under the Nguyen dynasty saw themselves as Han, they did not say they were Chinese. That is the difference. Vietnam was and is still a confucism state.

Second, for almost 1,000 years (many Chinese members here on the forum like to mention it at every opportunity), VN had been a province, a part of Imperial China, the Viet/Yue people were Chinese. So being a Chinese means Chinese. People in Jiaozhi (Vietnam) were no difference to the ones of Canton or Beijing. 1,000 years! that period is longer than history of most countries in the world today. Even after being as independent nation in year 939, under the first ruler of Ngo dynasty, Vietnamese have kept this as part of their identities till today. As for vassal state, Vietnam paid tributes, but never followed orders from China.

Third, as you mentioned it, the myth the creation of Vietnam, Hung Vuong, is indeed disputed.

If theoretically Taiwan declares independent, the Taiwanese will become to what the Viets today.

a little bit off-topic
Han was a ethnoym of the Sinitic speakers in the central plains ever since the Northern Wei,for the Tang it was applied that Han meant the Tang dynasty while Fan are foreign states though not in the sense of ethnicity but nationality,during the Ming it was applied to both Northern and Southern Chinese,and the Qing made "Han" the official term for the Sinitic people they conquered while Hua was applied to Manchus and other minorities.

What I'm trying to establish is that Han was used to mean either as a toponym(Central Plains),the common Chinese man(regardless of ethnicty) or the native Sinitic speakers.

The Nguyen were identifying themselves as "Chinese" in culture.

For more information about the Han ethnicity read:

Critical Han Studies: The History, Representation, and Identity of China's Majority

Becoming Zhong Guo,Becoming Han: Tracing and Re-conceptualizing in Ancient Northern China , 770 B.C.- A.D. 581

Fan and Han: The Origins and Uses of a Conceptual Dichotomy in Mid-Imperial China,ca. 500-1200


No,it is unknown what ethonym the non Sinitic speakers of Southern China called themselves,they differed in language family and often warred with each other.

Furthermore the people of Northern Vietnam called themselves and were written as men of Jiao Zhi/Giao Chi they did not reuse the term Yue whether it be 越 or 粵 as an ethonym.

Despite the misconception that Vietnam was always struggling to break away from Chinese rule there was periods of relative peace such as rule by Shi Xie,so Northern Vietnamese only rebelled when there was a harsh governor,the regions of Guangxi and Guangdong were not pacified and heavily settled with Chinese until Tang.

Even Ly Bi called his kingdom Wan Quan/Van Xuan not Dai Viet,hell the Cantonese state of Southern Han was previously named Da Yue.

You should realize that the Vietnamese language has a lot of native Vietnamese words(I'm not talking about Sino-Vietnamese) that are Chinese in origin one theory is that Northern Vietnamese switched from a Sinitic language to a Muong language

Laqured Words : The Evolution of Vietnamese Under Sinitic Influences From the 1st Century BCE Through the 17th Century CE


There is no dispute,there is absolutely no historical or archaeological proof to back up the Xich Quy or Van Lang existence

I still find it hilarious how some Vietnamese use it as an excuse that they owned Southern China or that China was influenced by Vietnam.

The problem with your analogy is that the overwhelmingly majority of the ethnic Han population of Taiwan are descendants of those that migrated either during the Qing as farmers/merchants or arrived later due to the KMT fleeing to Taiwan.

Furthermore the theory that Taiwanese Han are actually sinicized aborigines is a minority view.

Since I can't post links to sources due to insufficient permissions, pm me if you need them.
 
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grand historician, thank for your post. that explains me a bit more.

I read in a book over the history of China that the Manchus or Qing followed a very racism policy after they defeated the Ming. The Manchus rulers demanded as a sign of submission that all Han men had to shave their heads. Further they forbade mixed marriages between the native Manchus and Hans, and even any settlement into their homeland of Manchuria. The Qing failure to support and protect Vietnam in the 19 century when France attempted to conquer Vietnam was a major historic mistake. When Vietnam fell in 1874, the days of the Qings were numbered.

As for VN, it has been always very problematic in dealing with China. If Vietnamese rulers followed Chinese rules, their legitimacy was in question, and sooner or later, the emperor would be dethroned, for instance the Emperor Lê Chiêu Thống. So what Vietnamese rulers did was they officially submitted as vassal of China and agreed to pay tribute, but remained independent from Chinese commands.

Ten Great Campaigns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Campaign in Vietnam (1788–1789)
Chinese officials receiving the deposed Vietnamese Emperor Lê Chiêu Thống

Chinese_officials_receiving_depossed_Vietnamese_Emperor_Le_Chieu_Thong.jpg
 
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I´m amazed by your good Viet language. We call China/ Middle Land as "Trung Quoc". So the word Quoc (nation or country) stands as second in the word order.


where is the source? I don´t believe it.
I cant copy the link since my class is too low. But you can copy that in Google and the first link is what you need. The key Word is "越南回应安倍参拜靖国神社吁日本妥善处理".

I´m amazed by your good Viet language. We call China/ Middle Land as "Trung Quoc". So the word Quoc (nation or country) stands as second in the word order.


where is the source? I don´t believe it.
Before the New Year, Chinese Minister of Foreign Affair Wang Yi and Vietnamese Minister of Foreign Affair Pham Binh Minh made a phone call, the two ministers unifieded the attitude of two countries to the issue of Japanese Prime Minister Shinze Abe making the official visit to Yasukuni Shrine. The next day, when the Spokeman of Socialist Republic of Vietnam Luong Thanh Nghi had stated that opinion when answered the quesition of the journalist of Japan's Kyodo News.
 
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I´m amazed by your good Viet language. We call China/ Middle Land as "Trung Quoc". So the word Quoc (nation or country) stands as second in the word order.


where is the source? I don´t believe it.
About Viet Language, I can tell you it is a language in my daily Life, and I absolutly know "giai thich cua "Quoc" la Quoc Gia", The reason I put the namn at the first is the respect of Viet custom now, and I Think you can understand. Anyway, any stupid discussion can be talked in the forum, whatever how hot the insult is, or just a joking, no problem. However, the Japan and China's history should not on the joking list. Thang 11, Nam 1946, when the French army landed the Haiphong City, they killed over 6000 Vietnam civilians. I Think it is a serious, also no funny.
 
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Coming from a guy that still believe its country still own Cambodia & believe that Hun Sen is Pro Vietnam, who's more delusional do you think?

You know what else is even faster? Chinese retaliation against Vietnam for Aggression against Cambodia.
I am not aware but can you tell me since when you indonesians start to lick chinese boots?
if any Cambodia is a field where Vietnam and China fight for control. Indonesia has no stake here.
Hun Sen was installed by Vietnam after the defeat of Khmer Rouge, and he is still in power today. Even his oposition leader Rainsy calls Hun Sen as a puppet of Vietnam.

I cant copy the link since my class is too low. But you can copy that in Google and the first link is what you need. The key Word is "越南回应安倍参拜靖国神社吁日本妥善处理".


Before the New Year, Chinese Minister of Foreign Affair Wang Yi and Vietnamese Minister of Foreign Affair Pham Binh Minh made a phone call, the two ministers unifieded the attitude of two countries to the issue of Japanese Prime Minister Shinze Abe making the official visit to Yasukuni Shrine. The next day, when the Spokeman of Socialist Republic of Vietnam Luong Thanh Nghi had stated that opinion when answered the quesition of the journalist of Japan's Kyodo News.
I´m afraid something is missing. here is the official announcement:

Vietnam expresses concerns, urges Japan to handle issue properly
Vietnamese Foreign Ministry spokesperson, Luong Thanh Nghi, has said Hanoi hopes Tokyo to handle the issue properly in a bid to maintain regional stability and cooperation. This is the first time Hanoi has responded to such visits in years.

Vietnam expresses concerns, urges Japan to handle issue properly CCTV News - CNTV English
 
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I am not aware but can you tell me since when you indonesians start to lick chinese boots?
if any Cambodia is a field where Vietnam and China fight for control. Indonesia has no stake here.
Hun Sen was installed by Vietnam after the defeat of Khmer Rouge, and he is still in power today. Even his oposition leader Rainsy calls Hun Sen as a puppet of Vietnam.

Action speaks louder than word & his action is not consistent to what you claimed him to be. Just because your country put him to power doesn't mean he will do what you says to the letter. Just take a quick glance at any history book & you will find numerous example. Because you have comprehension problem Hun Sen himself hijacked the last meeting calling Vietnam claim absurd. Rainsy is a demagogue that uses the "V-word" in order to rile up anti Vietnamese sentiment in order to get vote.

During his speech, Mr. Rainsy again used anti-Vietnamese rhetoric, and repeatedly referred to the Vietnamese and Vietnam as “yuon,” a word some consider derogatory to describe the Vietnamese.

“It [Vietnam] goes and invades everywhere, and it steals land from Cambodians because the illegal government is a puppet of yuon,” he said in his speech.

The islands belong to China, but yuon is trying to occupy [the islands] from China, because yuon is very bad,” Mr. Rainsy said.

If you take his word seriously you just admit that your kind the "Yuon" is very bad.

When will you stop with your delusion of grandeur? Cambodia is in China's camp since Pol Pot's era not the Vietnamese.
 
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Action speaks louder than word & his action is not consistent to what you claimed him to be. Just because your country put him to power doesn't mean he will do what you says to the letter. Just take a quick glance at any history book & you will find numerous example. Because you have comprehension problem Hun Sen himself hijacked the last meeting calling Vietnam claim absurd. Rainsy is a demagogue that uses the "V-word" in order to rile up anti Vietnamese sentiment in order to get vote.

If you take his word seriously you just admit that your kind the "Yuon" is very bad.

When will you stop with your delusion of grandeur? Cambodia is in China's camp since Pol Pot's era not the Vietnamese.
You should look from a neutral distance to understand the situation.

It is no secret that China is behind the fool Rainsy. He plays the racial card, he is dangerous, but luckily he has not the backing of the majority of Cambodians, and more importantly he has not the support from the army and police forces. Everybody knows China tries to buy Cambodia, $2bn loans and grants are a strong argument. Hun Sen thanked the Chinese by sabotaging the last ASEAN summit. Hun Sen has many faces. He was trained in Vietnam, and he speaks Vietnamese. Sure, historcially Cambodia as a whole wants to stay neutral, but it is impossible as its mighty neighbors China, Vietnam and a century ago Thailand want to hijack the country for their purposes.

And again, this event was just one of the many moves China and Vietnam played and will make in this high stakes poker game. Don´t overrate one single event. Chinese now say they want to negotiate the Code of Conduct. If you believe to their words, you are just naive.

The game is not decided. Moreover Vietnam holds stronger cards. You will see what I mean. Hun Sen just visited Vietnam as he faced difficulties at home, why doesn´t he visit China? and surprisingly Vietnam PM is visiting Cambodia today. I am just realistic, far from delusion of grandeur. Cambodia is on the crossroad, either it slips towards to a chaos like Thailand or turns to a police state.

Or, again, Vietnam will be forced to step in and restore law and order. This time with international backing.

Vietnamese PM to visit Cambodia - Xinhua | English.news.cn
 
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Action speaks louder than word & his action is not consistent to what you claimed him to be. Just because your country put him to power doesn't mean he will do what you says to the letter. Just take a quick glance at any history book & you will find numerous example. Because you have comprehension problem Hun Sen himself hijacked the last meeting calling Vietnam claim absurd. Rainsy is a demagogue that uses the "V-word" in order to rile up anti Vietnamese sentiment in order to get vote.
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Viet is right, Cambodia army never support anti-VN party.
Lt. Gen. Meas Sophea, Deputy chief of the general staff widely believed as a Vietnamese national, Meas Sophea has a strong connection with Hun Sen. His father was known to be a north Vietnamese (Vietcong) Colonel. He played a major role during the 5-6 July coup.
Do u know which position of Mr Gen. Meas Sophea now ??

If you have to dig that up,don't forget Vietnam was under Chinese rule for over 1000 years.
this is fake history to make cheap Chinese happy, u have no video clip or picture to prove it. In fact , we killed ur cheap PLA so easily in 1979 and pushed u back in few weeks just by basic trainning women millitia forces.
 
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Now this is the stupid. No video ? Genius...

Now this is the stupid. No video ? Genius...
 
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You should look from a neutral distance to understand the situation.

It is no secret that China is behind the fool Rainsy. He plays the racial card, he is dangerous, but luckily he has not the backing of the majority of Cambodians, and more importantly he has not the support from the army and police forces. Everybody knows China tries to buy Cambodia, $2bn loans and grants are a strong argument. Hun Sen thanked the Chinese by sabotaging the last ASEAN summit. Hun Sen has many faces. He was trained in Vietnam, and he speaks Vietnamese. Sure, historcially Cambodia as a whole wants to stay neutral, but it is impossible as its mighty neighbors China, Vietnam and a century ago Thailand want to hijack the country for their purposes.

And again, this event was just one of the many moves China and Vietnam played and will make in this high stakes poker game. Don´t overrate one single event. Chinese now say they want to negotiate the Code of Conduct. If you believe to their words, you are just naive.

The game is not decided. Moreover Vietnam holds stronger cards. You will see what I mean. Hun Sen just visited Vietnam as he faced difficulties at home, why doesn´t he visit China? and surprisingly Vietnam PM is visiting Cambodia today. I am just realistic, far from delusion of grandeur. Cambodia is on the crossroad, either it slips towards to a chaos like Thailand or turns to a police state.

Or, again, Vietnam will be forced to step in and restore law and order. This time with international backing.

Vietnamese PM to visit Cambodia - Xinhua | English.news.cn

I'm Indonesian if anything I'm as Neutral as humanly possible. Perhaps the word you're looking is Objective. It is you who should be Neutral.

Are You serious? :omghaha:

lens17715957_1300114205conspiracy_theory.jpg


It is no secret that China is behind the fool Rainsy.

Hun Sen is already in China's pocket. Why in hell do the Chinese need to back Rainsy which want to abolish the Totalitarian 1 Party state & trying to introduce democracy! If Sam Rainsy get any backing from its probably from the Western Power because he was educated there. Most probably the French.

So Hun Sen went to Vietnam? Idi Amin used to visit a couple of places in the West until he went full Soviet. Abe also visit ASEAN do you actually believe he's gonna move ASEAN to support him? Once again delusion of Grandeur. If Hun Sen is really your puppet as you claim it to be or "friend" or whatever you want him to be. Then why did he not support you in your desperate hour? The answer for that is simple he's a Chinese puppet. Don't make mistake that was no small event that was THE event. For the first time since ASEAN founding there's no consensus & when have you heard a supposed ally or the puppet of a country publicly denounce its friend or overlord in an international meeting?

For example its like Israel publicly denounce the US. So it's a kind of a big deal that need to be noted.

Whatever Hun Sen was he's now belong to the Chinese.
 
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@Grand Historian

Hello GrandHistorian, have you read the article (about how Vietnam mistook China's islands to theirs) I handed to you few weeks ago? I tried to translate some of the main points, but lack the language skill.



we kicked Han chinese *** and regained our independence. Man Qing Kanton Governor admitted in the past that Island not belong to China, that is truth.

We have been controled Islands many hundred years ago with out trouble with China. China is just changed his claim from 1948. Hans Chinese are liar.

The islands you have been owning for hundred years are nothing related to 西沙&南沙 and China never changed their claim.

[Man Qing Kanton Governor admitted in the past that Island not belong to China]
Reference?
 
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Funny how Vietnamese thinks Cambodia is their puppet, just because they installed a sh*tty communist government in 1979.

Typical Vietnamese boasting. They think they are world power just because they "control" Cambodia and Laos, two sh*thole nations.
 
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I'm Indonesian if anything I'm as Neutral as humanly possible. Perhaps the word you're looking is Objective. It is you who should be Neutral.

Are You serious? :omghaha:

lens17715957_1300114205conspiracy_theory.jpg




Hun Sen is already in China's pocket. Why in hell do the Chinese need to back Rainsy which want to abolish the Totalitarian 1 Party state & trying to introduce democracy! If Sam Rainsy get any backing from its probably from the Western Power because he was educated there. Most probably the French.

So Hun Sen went to Vietnam? Idi Amin used to visit a couple of places in the West until he went full Soviet. Abe also visit ASEAN do you actually believe he's gonna move ASEAN to support him? Once again delusion of Grandeur. If Hun Sen is really your puppet as you claim it to be or "friend" or whatever you want him to be. Then why did he not support you in your desperate hour? The answer for that is simple he's a Chinese puppet. Don't make mistake that was no small event that was THE event. For the first time since ASEAN founding there's no consensus & when have you heard a supposed ally or the puppet of a country publicly denounce its friend or overlord in an international meeting?

For example its like Israel publicly denounce the US. So it's a kind of a big deal that need to be noted.

Whatever Hun Sen was he's now belong to the Chinese.
Indonesia dont even have an important location like Cambodia, dont try to lie. No one care abt ur country.
 
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