Sophistication of Indian tech is now sufficient to build a Rafale

[Koovie]

you are forgetting

in the ancilliaries are alredy setup

they already have many things in place and many workers in place

sor requirement of 108 units they are not going to hire new workers

so there are no thousands of Jobs

eg

when HAL will close down Su30 line to convert it to PAKFA line

it will utilise the same

Land /plant ( machines will differ)
same employees ( earlier working with Su30 now with pakfa)
mostly the same vendor base
etc etc

so now come back to reality

thousands of new job created is myth

No, the entire Rafale program will need a complete overhaul... the current Indian aviation industry is NOT capable of producing and maintaining such a machine... let alone a 5th gen fighter.

 

[sancho]

kit assembly. yes.
building/manufacturing? no.

Not really, the intial production will be done with kits, but the bulk will be produced in India from raw materials, or even with production completely diverted to India. The FSO system for example will be built under ToT at Samtel, the IRST channel might be completely diverted to Samtel, since Thales has stopped the production. Most of the engine parts are meant to be build in India by HAL and other subcontractors. AESA radar under ToT at BEL...:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 600

If you are making maruti.

Then you go buy 5 BMWs.

This will not help maruti. It will remain basic basic basic car, never to become BMW ever.

Who said that it should be a BMW? That was never the aim, but to gain know how with advanced manufacturing procedures, the use of modern engines, systems or materials, to improve the company not the Maruti. The improvement of the company will make it possible, that the next version of the Maruti will be more advanced and capable than the current one. It improves the production rate and efficiency, just as the higher capability will make it possible to develop more than a Maruti alone. It still might not be a BMW, but clearly not a Maruti anymore either!

 

[sancho]

Yes... And that exactly is what the import lobby in Delhi propagates to every Indian.

It's actually the other way around, since you don't look at what IAF or MoD wants and just state your preference.

If you want a fighter that is...

...making us less dependent on Russia

…ready today (or at least according to the timelines of MMRCA and 3 years earlier than even the first LCA MK2s)

...roughly as capable as the MKI, but more cost-effective to operate

...offering technical and industrial benefits for our industry


MMRCA is the way to go as simple as that. More Su 30 and even FGFA doesn't make us less dependen on Russia and only increases the operational costs, since it' highly expensive to operate such a larger heavy class flett, especially when the NG fighters come in. LCA on the other side is by far not capable enough to be an MMRCA, let alone to take over roles of the MKI to reduce operational costs, besides that non of them offers the industrial advantages the whole tender is about.
So you can complain about Rafale, EF or about costs, but that doesn't take away the aims of the competition and of IAF / MoD!

 

[SQ8]

besides that non of them offers the industrial advantages the whole tender is about.
So you can complain about Rafale, EF or about costs, but that doesn't take away the aims of the competition and of IAF / MoD!

But just as with the helicopter tender(and a host of other tenders involving the Indian military). Perhaps it is prudent to look at the feasibility of the deal from today. Perhaps an alternative solution might be possible?

 

[sancho]

But just as with the helicopter tender(and a host of other tenders involving the Indian military).

No, the helicopter tenders were mainly about licence production and had far less impact on the industry as a whole. MMRCA gives us also the capabilities to modern radar, engine and electro-optics, fields where we lack behind and where we need inputs.

Perhaps it is prudent to look at the feasibility of the deal from today.

That's what I say too, but only within the shortlisted options and based on the fact that the original RFP timeline hardly can be met and some things had changed in the capabilities of Rafale and EF, compared to the initial offers.

Perhaps an alternative solution might be possible?

Like?

 

[SQ8]

ike?

A stop gap solution for direct purchase of say the EF or F-18.. and speeding up the AMCA process.

 

[sancho]

A stop gap solution for direct purchase of say the EF or F-18.. and speeding up the AMCA process.

I also consider the EF to be the best chance to get the squad number issue (if that is one at all) under control, but again, the main aim is advantages for the industry, that's why they want to build as many as possible in India. So a fast procurements of EFs from abroad, would most likely only possible if the total order is increased. F18 was not shortlisted and therefor is no alternative. AMCA is a paper project of ADA / DRDO that not even IAF wants at this point and if at all will be an option in 15 years or so, but IAF wants modern fighters now and that's only possible with MMRCA.

 

[FaujHistorian]

--
Thanks ...
yes . our industry .. or govt.. our aerospace is secodnary scool
if you compare with USA/Russia/ France who have double doctorate and have own university of above..
we learning with LCA .. we are proud to fail now..
those who fail .. its shown theya re working.. and need to work more..
“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”
― Thomas A. Edison
now world respect the guy who failed before..
--
we are failure (to keep in simple.. LCA on ground ) but sure tommrrow word will respect us .. bases on yesterdyas ha work
--
“The three great essentials to achieve anything worthwhile are, first, hard work; second, stick-to-itiveness; third, common sense.”
― Thomas A. Edison
--
high tech job..
high tech job comes from high tech companies ... intel, mircosoft, google, ibm , boing, Lockheed, NASA
high tech people come fomr high end University ,, hardward, yale , MIT. standford , carnegie mellon
---
max india have is IIT in techinals .. and IIIM in managet
stil most IITs guys used to be IIM grad and become finance , marketing guy sometime even writer
( i am fine with it)
so cutting age research was few people prerogative..
now since decade or so ... govt pusing reasech ,, changng univeristy to go beyong bread and butter
invingting high end companies for R and D and yeiled few result too .. exa. banglore .. GE Rand D
--
So ideal is not always reality..
so reality is we cant beulid same quality of RAFael NOW so need to import ..


--
suppose in war waht you woudl pref to face your F16 , JF
a Squdren of LCA .. why
a Sq of Rafael .. why

looks like I am fortunate to have found a brother poet.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I also consider the EF to be the best chance to get the squad number issue (if that is one at all) under control, but again, the main aim is advantages for the industry, that's why they want to build as many as possible in India. So a fast procurements of EFs from abroad, would most likely only possible if the total order is increased. F18 was not shortlisted and therefor is no alternative. AMCA is a paper project of ADA / DRDO that not even IAF wants at this point and if at all will be an option in 15 years or so, but IAF wants modern fighters now and that's only possible with MMRCA.

@sancho, what exactly is your issue with the Rafale? The Rafale is superior to the EFT in almost every way today, yes the EFT will be developed but the Rafale won't be standing still. Not to mention the EFT consortium are not some innocent victims, they placed a bid higher than Dassualt and that is the reason they are not in line to secure the contract. And anyway even if talks were to be started for the EFT it would take another 2-3 years to get to the point where India is with Dassualt today. You are all for reducing delays, this would add a huge delays for little tangible gain.

Is it a case of the grass is always greener on the other side?

Sometimes it feels as though people are just looking for solutions for the sake of it, the Rafale deal as merit and is pretty much ideal for India/the IAF.

 

[sathya]

The way they buggers fkd things up is more anti national. I mean a Marut built with German Kurt Tank's help and then a limping LCA - that's all we have to show for in this field? Not enough. Just not good enough.

If any parents have kids who are interested in aerospace, I will urge them to cultivate that interest and not push them into Computer Science or medical fields.

.

My interest bloomed just after joining elsewere..

 

[sancho]

@sancho, what exactly is your issue with the Rafale?

We have discussed this before and we both know that you are simply too focused on the fighter itself, while I look at the larger aim of the tender and to get as much benefits for India in return for the money we spend. That's why if the aim is to get as many fighters in a short time like Oscar said, the EF T3A would be the better choice because of it's 4 production line, compared to the 1 of Dassault. Simialarly, producing upgrade parts far hundreds of EF's obviously is better for our industry, than mainly for ours only, just as jointly developing AESA or engines gets us what we need for future developments like an AMCA, compared to "just" getting ToT and all this together can form a package that is better for India in the long run, even if it's costlier and an the fighter less capable at the moment.
So even if I think that the Rafale is the best 4.5th gen fighter, it doesn't automatically mean that the EF or the EF package wouldn't offer benefits for India too.

 

[Cat Shannon]

I see so many Indian posters who are fan boys of Dassault Rafale.

This shows they have no confidence in their own engineers and sientists. Which is really sad to see.

Aerospace industry and capacity of India is now among the best.

So do not waste money on buying 100s of Dassault Rafales. By a squadran or two.

Save the hard earned billions and build your own.

Sure it may take a bit of time, but it will be yours.


And above all, it will give high tech jobs to 1000s of Indians instead of exporting them to EU>

No, We yet do not have the tech to make a Rafale. LCA yes, Rafale No. Thank you.

 

[Lostsoldier]

Those western countries know that you are cash cow and they know you won't and can't reverse engineer their products. We have very strong indutrial infrastructure which you lacks of to deter the arm embargo. As a citizen of UK, you should prefer typhoon to show you are a patriot.

That's the difference in being a slave or citizen or China and being a citizen of UK or India.

 

[帅的一匹]

That's the difference in being a slave or citizen or China and being a citizen of UK or India.

oh come on. blah blah blah......slave my A$$

A stop gap solution for direct purchase of say the EF or F-18.. and speeding up the AMCA process.

India don't have the ability to go for AMCA along, they need a partner.

 

[Lostsoldier]

oh come on. blah blah blah......slave my A$$

It's world known that Chinese citizens have a lot of liberties.Wait let me add you on Facebook Biatch!

oh come on. blah blah blah......slave my A$$


India don't have the ability to go for AMCA along, they need a partner.

早安
I reckon it's morning there.Have a liberal day m8.