Some questions related to number of tanks in Pakistan Army

[TaimiKhan]

okay just tell me why are we still not retiring our old t-85
in the presence of much more advance t-80 and al-khalid

and also tell me can we make sure to consider al-zarar
to fight well against more advance t-72 and t-90

A good question, well i am not an expert but the logical answer that i see would be that T-85 is not an outdated kind of tank, it has a 125mm gun, autoloader, armor sufficient with capability for ERA installation. So the Al Khalids are replacing T-85, T-59 and other T-series of tanks, if my memory stands correct we also had some american M48s, current status not knows but most probably they have been replaced.

So if u see the ratio, we have more of the old tanks, and priority would be to get rid of them rather get rid hurriedly of the T-85 series which is better then the older T-series. Plus, T-85s parts are being used in Al Khalid, so decommissioning of T-85 also depends on the speed of manufacturing of Al Khalids. So first we get rid of the really old tanks and then we get rid of T-85 series.

Now as for Al Zarrar, it can sure take on T-72 head on, but for T-90 not suitable. If u see the specification of Al Zarrar and T-72 there isn't any major difference. Same guns, same kind of auto loader, engine power nearly same, FCS, night fighting ability, Al Zarrar can fire nearly all kind of ammunition, even DU rounds & ATGMs. Armor wont be bad too because PA make the AL Zarrar taking into perspective the Indian T-72 in mind, ERA is there, rather it may be better then T-72 in battle as Chinese & PA know well about T-72, chinese had tested it after getting some samples from friendly countries, so the upgrade to Al Zarrar must be equal or little bit superior to T-72s.

T-90 is totally another generation of tank, and AL Zarrar and Al Khalid share a lot of things too.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Taimikhan Sahib:

I agree with you observations, however the practical production capacity depends upno what you can produce in the limited time available --when the "50 tanks per year" production figure was quoted it must have been under pressure to give a respectable figure -- it is easier to retrofit available tanks requiring less man hours than building a tank from ground up.

The logical assumption would be that the retro fit would be at a faster pace beacuse of less man-hours needed as compared to building new tanks. Thus higher figure of AZ in "50 Tank" figure.

As far as your confusion on my statment on the souped up armoured brigades -- let me explain:

For security reasons, the two indendant armoured brigades stationed at Karachi are classified as brigade while in reality they are more closer to divisional strenght when counted together. As you may very well know the chinese t-85 and t 80UD equipped these brigades and the one in Pano Aqil. Now some of them are being replaced with AK.

AZ is a stop gap for Punjab plains. You do not require an MBT in Punjab due to close proximity of built up areas and trees/foliage -- those who fought in Punjab in Tanks will testify to this -- duels at extreme ranges do not happen therfore no need for a larger gun but a more effective armour suit -- that is why AZ has been given the new armour suit.

I hope a lot more clarity is there.

I do share ur views, but do take into consideration that both these tanks are not new, Al Zarrar upgraded version of an old tank having many new additions, Al Khalid is made up of 50% from the parts of old tanks. Both share the same gun, same auto loader, FCS & night fighting would most probably be same, as cost save in economy of scales concept. So the work to be done on these tanks would be same or falling in a very close time period. Whatever the issues in Punjab, we can't lower our guard based on this as Indians can exploit this due to their superior armor and numbers. AZ had to be added with additional armor to make it survivable against the new indian armor up gradations, specially their T-72 up grade program in mind.

As for armor divisions, yes there was some rumor sometime ago, but if u look at the strength of PA tanks, lets suppose its 2000 tanks, this number is sufficient enough for a 4+ divisions of armor if we take 3 brigades as a divisional strength. But Pakistan has 2 proper armor formations equipped with MIB to counter the Indian Cold Start doctrine, and these divisions would be working with the 2 elite strike corps.

So now one wonders that where does the strength of the other 2 armor divisions go, well they are divided in Independent Armor Brigades, attached to different divisions or work as mobile armor to strike at different locations when needed, or in case the main line of defence is broken, they can counter attack. These brigades sometimes mostly consist of all armor units or a mixture of armor with MIB as a mobile rapid reaction small forces to hit unexpectedly or as counter attack forces.

This is the reason we don't have 4 armor divisions, as we have broken them into independent armor formations to make it mobile, as armor divisions are deployed across a specific area of extreme strategic importance, places where u may think the enemy can make a big push, so a big force required to stop or do the offense-defense strategy of PA, aiming to capture some valuable land and put presure on the enemy or use it at the negotiations table. And the little armor brigades would be attached to the normal infantry divisions or dispersed to places where ever required. Or as mobile Shock Troops.

And making of 3rd Armor division shouldn't be a surprise as it will happen today or tomorrow, due to the increase in enemy armor strength as it will let them target more areas for their cold start doctrine. So to counter them we would be raising more formations and increase the number of tanks too.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

A good question, well i am not an expert but the logical answer that i see would be that T-85 is not an outdated kind of tank, it has a 125mm gun, autoloader, armor sufficient with capability for ERA installation. So the Al Khalids are replacing T-85, T-59 and other T-series of tanks, if my memory stands correct we also had some american M48s, current status not knows but most probably they have been replaced.

So if u see the ratio, we have more of the old tanks, and priority would be to get rid of them rather get rid hurriedly of the T-85 series which is better then the older T-series. Plus, T-85s parts are being used in Al Khalid, so decommissioning of T-85 also depends on the speed of manufacturing of Al Khalids. So first we get rid of the really old tanks and then we get rid of T-85 series.

Now as for Al Zarrar, it can sure take on T-72 head on, but for T-90 not suitable. If u see the specification of Al Zarrar and T-72 there isn't any major difference. Same guns, same kind of auto loader, engine power nearly same, FCS, night fighting ability, Al Zarrar can fire nearly all kind of ammunition, even DU rounds & ATGMs. Armor wont be bad too because PA make the AL Zarrar taking into perspective the Indian T-72 in mind, ERA is there, rather it may be better then T-72 in battle as Chinese & PA know well about T-72, chinese had tested it after getting some samples from friendly countries, so the upgrade to Al Zarrar must be equal or little bit superior to T-72s.

T-90 is totally another generation of tank, and AL Zarrar and Al Khalid share a lot of things too.

so in present situation we have al-khalid and t-85 tanks in our
army to face-off against indian t-90bhishmas
am i correct khan sahab?

 

[TaimiKhan]

so in present situation we have al-khalid and t-85 tanks in our
army to face-off against indian t-90bhishmas
am i correct khan sahab?

AK, AZ, T-85, T-69, T-55/59 and may be a few other older models.

 

[zraver]

so in present situation we have al-khalid and t-85 tanks in our
army to face-off against indian t-90bhishmas
am i correct khan sahab?

Pakistan -

Planned- AKII
1st rate- AK, T-80UD
2nd rate- AZ, T-85IIAP
3rd rate- Type 59 and 69 (reserve formations and infantry support)

India-

Planned- Arjun Mk 2
1st rate- T-90M
2nd rate- T-90S, Arjun
3rd rate- T-72
4th rate- Vijayanta, T-55 (reserve formations and infantry support)

The newest T-90 version ordered by India is a beast. it has a Swedish APS, Kacktus HERA, uses Kachan ceramic inserts, the improved auto-loader, Israeli climate controls, and an improved French/Russian FCS, improved 2A46m5 L56 125mm gun with MRS. Not sure when they will start rolling out in numbers. However they will outnumber the T-90S being second only to the T-72 in number of total systems of front line equipment (677 T-90M vs 310 T-90S or 124 Arjun)

The T-90M is bad news for Pakistan. It gives India a tank that is arguably one of the best in the world. If India gets the newer Russian rounds like the 3BM42M/3BM46 etc so that gun power matches the tanks other strengths.....

The T-90M threatens to throw the whole regional balance out of whack. It gives India the same type of technological edge on the ground that the IAF enjoys in the air. China doesn't really have a counter to offer, not even the latest Type 99. Pakistan needs to start looking at ways she can defend herself that do not require a head to head win to achieve victory. These include political allies, technologies where Pakistan can jump ahead and stay ahead etc. India leads in numbers, tanks, planes and long range rocket artillery.

Some areas include getting the AH-64D Longbow. The Longbow can fire from behind cover using buddy laze meaning the hellfires can wreak hell without exposing the helicopters to the Indian ADA which includes dedicated anti-helo platforms like the Tunguska. Other options include the Eurocopter Tiger ARH or UHT which has the same capability. or the WZ10 but with the MMW FCS on a mast mount for the HJ-10 heavy ATGM.

With attack helicopters, Pakistan would need a better air defense net to keep the Indian fighters and fighter bombers at bay. The FC2000 does this to a great extent, and the MBDA 2000 will help over the direct battlefield. The SAM's also help even the odds in the air over Pakistan. India is unlikely to risk its SU-30MKI in a low level tactical role, or risk them to close up high in range of the FC2000. This gives the PAF the chance to keep the IAF busy. The PAF won't win, its a numbers game, but they should be able to let the attack helicopters work.

 

[Dazzler]

Zraver,

You are comparing the present configuration of Al Khalid with the T-90M which is yet to be inducted in the Indian Army. According to Usman Ansari, a new configuration of Al Khalid MBT has been tested and the rest of Al Khalids will be comprised of this standard. It is called Al Khalid 1 which was made to counter anything in the league of T-90M. Although the link is posted before but i think it will be appropriate to post it here. This news was also confirmed by a senior member at Pakdef.info forum. Al Khalid 2 will be in a different league altogether.

 

[Dazzler]

The reason why the Indians ran to buy t-90S from Russia was T-80 ud which we bought in the late nineties. At that time Al Khalid was in development. So the induction of T-80s was more of a stopgap measure. For some reason people underestimate the capabilities of Al Khalid. I read an analysis by a Russian Tank expert (can't recall his name right now) who analyzed that Al Khalid will be more than a match for Indian T-90S and that analysis was made in 2002. Al Khalid 1 is an upgraded version of the original and features new Electronic turret control, a reconfigured autoloader, capable to fire 9 rounds per minute instead of original 8, newly developed IBMS (possibly Rehbar2?), same but more improved engine (6TDF), improved sensors with more range and protection, new tracks, Catherine FC thermal imaging camera, newly developed ERA which was tested against all types of ammunition (both 120 and 125 mm), a new APU developed with Ukrainian corporation, Active protection system and many other improvements. Also the internal weapon storage capacity is drastically improved. So after all it appears to be quite a match for even T-90M

 

[nightrider_saulat]

NO! NO! NO! YOU CAN'T UNDERSESTIMATE T-80UD IT IS STILL THE MOST HEAVIEST TANK IN THE WORLD
AND RUSSIA AND OTHER FORMER USSR STATES ARE STILL RELYING HEAVILY ON T-80UD.
T-80 AND T-90 ARE STILL IN THE SAME GENERATION BUT DIFFERENCE
IS T-90's SWIFTNESS AND AGILITY
I THINK AK2s BY 2012 INSHA'ALLAH WILL REPLACE OLD T-85II IN OUR ARMY

 

[zraver]

NO! NO! NO! YOU CAN'T UNDERSESTIMATE T-80UD IT IS STILL THE MOST HEAVIEST TANK IN THE WORLD
AND RUSSIA AND OTHER FORMER USSR STATES ARE STILL RELYING HEAVILY ON T-80UD.
T-80 AND T-90 ARE STILL IN THE SAME GENERATION BUT DIFFERENCE
IS T-90's SWIFTNESS AND AGILITY
I THINK AK2s BY 2012 INSHA'ALLAH WILL REPLACE OLD T-85II IN OUR ARMY

Your backwards, the T-90 is slow, the T-80/T-84 is called the flying tank because it has such a high power to weight ratio.

 

[zraver]

Zraver,

You are comparing the present configuration of Al Khalid with the T-90M which is yet to be inducted in the Indian Army. According to Usman Ansari, a new configuration of Al Khalid MBT has been tested and the rest of Al Khalids will be comprised of this standard. It is called Al Khalid 1 which was made to counter anything in the league of T-90M.

BS and here is why

T-72 auto-loader severely limits gun power
lack of heavy explosive reactive armor
no active protection system
Chinese FCS
Its based on the MBT2000 a design the PLA rejected in favor of the type 96/98/99 series.

The Al Khlaid's only advantage over the T-90M is agility.

While the T-90M is not inducted yet, it will be soon. This will be the dominant Indian tank within 5 years. This is the Tank Pakistan needs to challenge, unfortunately China does not have an effective counter to offer.

 

[Dazzler]

Oh man!

I didn't expect this answer from you. You really don't know much about the Al Khalid do you? The fire control system is of western origin (chinese one is on MBT 2000, not Al Khalid !). Trust me the autoloader on Al Khalid 1 is upgraded to provide higher and even better fire power than the previous model. Read the history of Al Khalid and MBT 2000 before calling both of them the same tanks. Pakistan took an entirely different route for Al Khalid than Chinese MBT 2000. Different fire control system, different night vision devices, datalink, IBMS and sensors are of Western origin. The autotracker is of french origin unlike the MBT 2000 which has a Chinese one. You said no ERA on Al Khalid?? It has ERA from the very start and is atleast in the league of Kontakt 5. HIT has developed a new generation of ERA that was tested in late 2007 against all kinds of ammunition. I don't say it. There is evidence to prove it. Read Usman Ansari's post given on previous pages. He is among most knowledgeable military journalists in Pakistan at the moment. The gun is Ukrainian origin instead of Chinese and is 48 caliber instead of Russian\ Chinese 52 caliber. That means more accuracy. Please read the history of Al Khalid available on many forums.

 

[hj786]

Oh man!

I didn't expect this answer from you. You really don't know much about the Al Khalid do you? The fire control system is of western origin (chinese one is on MBT 2000, not Al Khalid !). Trust me the autoloader on Al Khalid 1 is upgraded to provide higher and even better fire power than the previous model. Read the history of Al Khalid and MBT 2000 before calling both of them the same tanks. Pakistan took an entirely different route for Al Khalid than Chinese MBT 2000. Different fire control system, different night vision devices, datalink, IBMS and sensors are of Western origin. The autotracker is of french origin unlike the MBT 2000 which has a Chinese one. You said no ERA on Al Khalid?? It has ERA from the very start and is atleast in the league of Kontakt 5. HIT has developed a new generation of ERA that was tested in late 2007 against all kinds of ammunition. I don't say it. There is evidence to prove it. Read Usman Ansari's post given on previous pages. He is among most knowledgeable military journalists in Pakistan at the moment. The gun is Ukrainian origin instead of Chinese and is 48 caliber instead of Russian\ Chinese 52 caliber. That means more accuracy. Please read the history of Al Khalid available on many forums.

The AK has a 125 mm gun and auto-loader of Chinese origin according to Usman Ansari, not a Ukrainian 48 caliber (120 mm) gun.

 

[Dazzler]

Yes the gun is 125 mm smoothbore but is 48 caliber hence better accuracy than 52 caliber as fitted on MBT 2000 and T-90. Remember Saudi Tank gunner achieved 100 % hit story? it was because of this reason. It is based on Ukrainian KBA series and developed by Chinese for Al Khalid hence called Chinese.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

Your backwards, the T-90 is slow, the T-80/T-84 is called the flying tank because it has such a high power to weight ratio.

t-90 being rated as slow machine
I am quit surprised actually to hear this from a former yank commander

 

[Dazzler]

To nightrider_saulat

No one can call the T-80 ud an inferior tank by any means. In fact, when fielded, it was the most advanced mbt in the Sub continent and is still a serious challenge to Indian T-90S. Al Khalid 1 in current upgraded form is definitely superior to T-90S and should be at least in the league of T-90M.


To hj786

Brother, 48 caliber doesn't necessarily mean 120 mm. Read the army-guide Ukraine section. They manufacture a variety of 125 mm smoothbore guns with different calibers and the KBA3 series which is the latest Ukrainian 125 mm smoothbore 48 caliber gun, is fitted on T-80 ud, T-84, Oplot and BM BULAT mbt's.