Socialist mindset destroyed Pakistan in the 1970s

[ziaulislam]

Blaming socialism is taking the easy way out. The problem was quite simply a lack of good leadership. Socialism in its different forms has been implemented successfully in some parts of the world and caused chaos in others. The difference is in the leadership. Bhutto was a feudal landlord. Feudal elites can hardly ever be expected to engage in genuine societal reform willingly. He was a great talker however and people bought his stance.

Bhutto was a good leader with bad idea of nationalisation and inciting anti capitalism sentiments (sarmaya dar) causing capital to leave country and settle in other countries

 

[Jf Thunder]

And Gen. Zia was even more brutal. Frankly Bhutto was too soft on PNA. By having Bhutto removed and placing the savage Zia in power USA cleared the chessboard to rape Pakistan's a*ss for the next 11 years as cheap cannon fodder against Soviet Union. After having raped Pakistan USA left in 1990, duly sanctioning the country. The ramifications of that period still play out in Pakistan.

cannot disagree with that

More then Altaf bhai? More then Gen. Zia?

cannot disagree with that either

I already covered that. It was WP that refused to give Banglas their due. Would you accept Bengali as national language and Dhaka as capital?

I would accept Mujib as PM
as PM he could do anything he wanted with the consent of the NA
it should be noted that the NA had a sizable amount of WP as well
they would now allow anything that would damage Pakistan
heck, the current 18th Amendment if made into law at that time would have been acceptable to the EPs

 

[ziaulislam]

Ps: i dont believe bhutto was good leader but others do

And Gen. Zia was even more brutal. Frankly Bhutto was too soft on PNA. By having Bhutto removed and placing the savage Zia in power USA cleared the chessboard to rape Pakistan's a*ss for the next 11 years as cheap cannon fodder against Soviet Union. After having raped Pakistan USA left in 1990, duly sanctioning the country. The ramifications of that period still play out in Pakistan.

More then Altaf bhai? More then Gen. Zia?

I already covered that. It was WP that refused to give Banglas their due. Would you accept Bengali as national language and Dhaka as capital?

True both bhutto and zia damaged Pakistan
But...proxy war in Afghanistan is debatable issue

By looking at poland i am sure had we not done that USSR would have taken over Pakistan like it did with Afghanistan

Less then Gen. Zia. You know there is some speculation with weight that Bhutto was bumped with US approval. Gen. Zia and Washington were real cool with each other.

Rubbish. Assumption based on what may I ask? Don't bother mentioning Bangla. That was a event writ in geography and WP refusal to be ruled by East Pakistan from 1947. These were issues beyond Bhutto.

* And Bhutto at his worse was better then Gen. Zia.


I agree. But.

Bingo. Socialism is next to useless if not destructive to deveoped polities like in Europe. But in un-reformed, religio-feudal, socially trapped societies that you see in most of the developing world, socialism can do wonders. Reforms that drive toward equality by entirely wiping out fedudal order, traditional culture, breaks class order and creates a reformed society after destroying the older order can lay the foundation for a successful capitalist driven society. China, Vietnam are good examples. Even India profited from having milder form under Nehru as that laid the seeds of future progress.

Was Bhutto propaganda
Read mujibs six points

As many know I am full on PTI supporter but I find this blame the 'socialism' on Pakistan's present malaise too simplistic and does not quite explain the reasons. Although I can understand why it makes for good political speach where cut and dry rendtions work.

Indeed I would argue that had Pakistan got full dose of socialism in 1970s, Pakistan would have been a rip roaring economy today. Surprised? Think of ...

View attachment 546320

His assessment of nationalization destroying Pakistan in 1970s is accepted by all even Bhutto family themselves

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I would accept Mujib as PM
as PM he could do anything he wanted with the consent of the NA
it should be noted that the NA had a sizable amount of WP as well
they would now allow anything that would damage Pakistan
heck, the current 18th Amendment if made into law at that time would have been acceptable to the EPs

Bhutto has become the scapegoat for EP debacle. The truth is there were fundamental tensions simmering from 1947 and these exploded like a volcano in 1971. The reality is EP had bigger population. The unfairness began from 1947. EP was the majority wing -

• Jinnah should have flown to Dhaka in 1947 as the capital of the new country
• Jinnah should have acceeded to the majority will and have Bengali as official language of Pakistan

If just these two had been instituted 1971 would never have happened. But WP elite was not prepared to accept or give assent to the majority of Pakistan who were Bengali's. When you deny majority their will sooner or later it will explode in your face.

And 1971 happened !

 

[B.K.N]

Its about people mentality, religious motivation i-e "1 mard -e-Mujahid =10 kafir", stories of Angles coming from sky and underestimating enemy.

Pakistan has only one problem it's population is too large and don't have enough resources to support it

 

[Indus Pakistan]

If you look at the Bangladesh that emerged in 1971 you can see Bengali as the official language and Dhaka the official capital. This should have been accepted by the minority WP in 1947. I mean in which world do you guys know where the minority gets to rule the majority and foists everything on them? This shit would never last for long and it did not.

 

[ziaulislam]

Bhutto has become the scapegoat for EP debacle. The truth is there were fundamental tensions simmering from 1947 and these exploded like a volcano in 1971. The reality is EP had bigger population. The unfairness began from 1947. EP was the majority wing -

• Jinnah should have flown to Dhaka in 1947 as the capital of the new country
• Jinnah should have acceeded to the majority will and have Bengali as official language of Pakistan

If just these two had been instituted 1971 would never have happened. But WP elite was not prepared to accept or give assent to the majority of Pakistan who were Bengali's. When you deny majority their will sooner or later it will explode in your face.

And 1971 happened !

Mujeeb in 6 points never mentioned what you are saying
He wanted equal rights..which were denied by bhutto...
I agree Bhutto is not 100% responsible the sentiment was due to apathy of previous rulers and dictatorship of ayub but he was the final reason for it

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Mujeeb in 6 points never mentioned what you are saying
He wanted equal rights..which were denied by bhutto...
I agree Bhutto is not 100% responsible the sentiment was due to apathy of previous rulers and dictatorship of ayub but he was the final reason for it

When the Dominion of Pakistan was formed by the partition of India in 1947, it was composed of various ethnic and linguistic groups, with the geographically non-contiguous East Bengal province (that was renamed in 1956 as East Pakistan) having a mainly Bengali population. In 1948, the Government of the Dominion of Pakistan ordained Urdu as the sole national language, sparking extensive protests among the Bengali-speaking majority of East Bengal. Facing rising sectarian tensions and mass discontent with the new law, the government outlawed public meetings and rallies. The students of the University of Dhaka and other political activists defied the law and organised a protest on 21 February 1952. The movement reached its climax when police killed student demonstrators on that day. The deaths provoked widespread civil unrest. After years of conflict, the central government relented and granted official status to the Bengali language in 1956.

The Language Movement catalysed the assertion of Bengali national identity in East Bengal and later East Pakistan, and became a forerunner to Bengali nationalist movements, including the 6-Point Movement and subsequently the Bangladesh Liberation War and Indo-Pakistani War of 1971. In Bangladesh, 21 February (Ekushey February) is observed as Language Movement Day, a national holiday. The Shaheed Minar monument was constructed near Dhaka Medical College in memory of the movement and its victims.

 

[Jf Thunder]

Bhutto has become the scapegoat for EP debacle. The truth is there were fundamental tensions simmering from 1947 and these exploded like a volcano in 1971. The reality is EP had bigger population. The unfairness began from 1947. EP was the majority wing -

• Jinnah should have flown to Dhaka in 1947 as the capital of the new country
• Jinnah should have acceeded to the majority will and have Bengali as official language of Pakistan

If just these two had been instituted 1971 would never have happened. But WP elite was not prepared to accept or give assent to the majority of Pakistan who were Bengali's. When you deny majority their will sooner or later it will explode in your face.

And 1971 happened !

Urdu was not the native language of any region in WP, that is why it was chosen as the official language due to it being neutral, if Bengali was made the National Language (official language was English) then Punjabis would demand Punjabi, Sindhis would demand Sindhi etc as the National Language
Karachi had the most infrastructural setup to be made the capital of Pakistan, Dhaka had nothing, Ayub Khan developed Dhaka as the second capital for the first time.
Jinnah didnt have so much free time on his hands that he could go to EP every time a Bengali threw a fit, so stop blaming a great leader like him. EP and WP should be grateful to him for independence

and please stop blaming the mythical "elites" of WP
please come out of the Indian and EP propaganda

 

[ziaulislam]

Mujeeb simply didnt trust Bhutto he wanted to quick adoption of his 6 points..no compromise on it..
6 points were fair and if he wanted that bhutto should have accepted it

The establishment and bhutto underestimated their will and indias and rest is history

When the Dominion of Pakistan was formed by the partition of India in 1947, it was composed of various ethnic and linguistic groups, with the geographically non-contiguous East Bengal province (that was renamed in 1956 as East Pakistan) having a mainly Bengali population. In 1948, the Government of the Dominion of Pakistan ordained Urdu as the sole national language, sparking extensive protests among the Bengali-speaking majority of East Bengal. Facing rising sectarian tensions and mass discontent with the new law, the government outlawed public meetings and rallies. The students of the University of Dhaka and other political activists defied the law and organised a protest on 21 February 1952. The movement reached its climax when police killed student demonstrators on that day. The deaths provoked widespread civil unrest. After years of conflict, the central government relented and granted official status to the Bengali language in 1956.

The Language Movement catalysed the assertion of Bengali national identity in East Bengal and later East Pakistan, and became a forerunner to Bengali nationalist movements, including the 6-Point Movement and subsequently the Bangladesh Liberation War and Indo-Pakistani War of 1971. In Bangladesh, 21 February (Ekushey February) is observed as Language Movement Day, a national holiday. The Shaheed Minar monument was constructed near Dhaka Medical College in memory of the movement and its victims.

Did you read the 6 points on whcih mujeeb ran his elections campaign

The rest which you hear is simpky exaggeration og history by both sides(bengalis and Pakistanis)

 

[B.K.N]

Mujeeb simply didnt trust Bhutto he wanted to quick adoption of his 6 points..no compromise on it..
6 points were fair and if he wanted that bhutto should have accepted it

The establishment and bhutto underestimated their will and indias and rest is history


Did you read the 6 points on whcih mujeeb ran his elections campaign

The rest which you hear is simpky exaggeration og history by both sides(bengalis and Pakistanis)

Creation of Bangladesh is the best thing ever happened to Pakistan it was an unnatural union

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Urdu was not the native language of any region in WP, that is why it was chosen as the official language due to it being neutral

Sorry that is rubbish. Having Urdu was not neutral. It suited and favoured the minority Urdu speakers. Language like Persian that no ethnic group spoke would have been neutral.

You either have a neutral language [that does not favour any one demographic] or you go with majority. In democracy the majority would have won with Bengali becoming the official language of Pakistan. So either you go for -

• majority
• neutrality

Not go with something that feigns neutrality because it actually favour one particular demography.

 

[xyxmt]

Bhutto just wanted power
more power than anyone else
in that process he destroyed everything

Isn't that the case with every ruler we got after Bhuto, ruler started paying more attention to staying in power for ever than thinking about people and country.

 

[Jf Thunder]

Sorry that is rubbish. Having Urdu was not neutral. It suited and favoured the minority Urdu speakers. Language like Persian that no ethnic group spoke would have been neutral.

You either have a neutral language [that does not favour any one demographic] or you go with majority. In democracy the majority would have won with Bengali becoming the official language of Pakistan. So either you go for -

• majority
• neutrality

Not go with something that feigns neutrality because it actually favour one particular demography.

in which area of Pakistan, was Urdu spoken as a National language?
yes, keep Persian so no one could speak it

 

[nahtanbob]

Bingo. Socialism is next to useless if not destructive to deveoped polities like in Europe. But in un-reformed, religio-feudal, socially trapped societies that you see in most of the developing world, socialism can do wonders. Reforms that drive toward equality by entirely wiping out fedudal order, traditional culture, breaks class order and creates a reformed society after destroying the older order can lay the foundation for a successful capitalist driven society. China, Vietnam are good examples. Even India profited from having milder form under Nehru as that laid the seeds of future progress.

for every china, vietnam there is a cambodia, laos, north korea, ethiopia, nicaragua