Sneak preview of pragmatic China policy

[Chinese-Dragon]

1. President Obama's newly announced foreign policy

They are hedging their bets after we showed no interest in their "G-2" proposal.

However, we are still the two main drivers of the world economy (even if America grows at 1.5% then they are still adding more to their economy than any other country in the world except China), and our economies are interdependent. Both sides are mostly interested in preserving the status quo, though China benefits more from it than America does.

2. U.S turnaround in economy

3. Again India's partnership with Russia

4. Japan though sitting on a stagnant economy but with huge foreign exchange resrves

2. Will most likely boost our own economy as well.

3. We co-founded the SCO with Russia, and double-veto with them on the UNSC. Even when they were our worst enemies in the 1960's they still didn't help India against us.

4. Japan derives most of their low economic growth from China, and they have a pacifist constitution anyway. No real threat.

5. India's economy growth as well

6.1% of a 1.7 trillion economy is not exactly Earth-shattering at the moment.

In fact if you check the nominal GDP data from the IMF and the World Bank, India's GDP ranking fell from 2010 to 2011. (First column is IMF data for 2011, second column is World Bank data from 2010)

List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tractor]

The border issue between two is only about Arunachal from both's view,Aksai Chin just been mentioned in open oral statements for it's nothing useless.

 

[Rig Vedic]

I would like to drive my SUV to Tibet as a tourist, and Chinese tourists can be welcome to visit the beautiful Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh.

 

[Tractor]

I would like to drive my SUV to Tibet as a tourist, and Chinese tourists can be welcome to visit the beautiful Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh.

May a final solution satisfy each country's citizens.

 

[ksgokul]

You had fifty years after that to make another offer.

China has sent some telegram about intervention in 1965 india-pakistan war also. But i couldn't find any intervention in 1971 war.I think the relations normalized only after 1986, i suppose, when Rajiv Gandhi visited China. As you might we are talking for 30 years, which very much shows that both the parties are fine with Status-Quo.

And you had plenty of time to disband the Tibetan government in exile, and let them live out the rest of their lives peacefully, instead of using them for your political games.

Now the Dalai Lama has finally given up (your political chip has expired):

Dalai Lama: Tibet Wants Autonomy, Not Independence - Time.com

Don't you think it is the responsiblity of China to solve the Tibet issue amicably. India has recognized Tibet as part of China and also declared that it doesn't endorse any tibet freedom movement. what more can you expect from a democratic country?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Which very much shows that both the parties are fine with Status-Quo.

Then what is the problem?

If you are fine with the status quo then there is no further need for border negotiations, apart from those on border mechanisms.

Don't you think it is the responsiblity of China to solve the Tibet issue amicably. India has recognized Tibet as part of China and also declared that it doesn't endorse any tibet freedom movement. what more can you expect from a democratic country?

Yeah you guys only recognized Tibet as a part of China recently, after you realized that you could not force the Dalai Lama to seek Tibetan independence.

But what about when you actually hosted them in 1959, and when they were conducting guerilla operations against us in the 1960's, as they themselves admitted?

And I already answered your question. You could have disbanded them and allowed them to live out their lives peacefully, instead of using them as a political chip for your games. You could have let them pass through India to any Western country for asylum, to any country that does not have a dispute with our Tibetan border (i.e. any country except India).

 

[Abhishek_]

Then what is the problem?

If you are fine with the status quo then there is no further need for border negotiations, apart from those on border mechanisms.

the trouble is that Chinese negotiators start the dialogue with "how much arunachal pradesh are you willing to give."
it is china that is dragging its feet and making demands even she knows won't be met. both countries are good at the waiting game, so the dispute lingers

 

[Sashan]

They are hedging their bets after we showed no interest in their "G-2" proposal.

However, we are still the two main drivers of the world economy (even if America grows at 1.5% then they are still adding more to their economy than any other country in the world except China), and our economies are interdependent. Both sides are mostly interested in preserving the status quo, though China benefits more from it than America does.



2. Will most likely boost our own economy as well.

3. We co-founded the SCO with Russia, and double-veto with them on the UNSC. Even when they were our worst enemies in the 1960's they still didn't help India against us.

4. Japan derives most of their low economic growth from China, and they have a pacifist constitution anyway. No real threat.



6.1% of a 1.7 trillion economy is not exactly Earth-shattering at the moment.

In fact if you check the nominal GDP data from the IMF and the World Bank, India's GDP ranking fell from 2010 to 2011. (First column is IMF data for 2011, second column is World Bank data from 2010)

List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I mentioned Russia staying neutral while India aligned with other countries. Also the reason why USSR did not help India in 1962 is due to Cuban Missile crisis, right?
Also Japan's foreign policy can change in the next few years as signs are pointing out to - e.g. building helicopter carriers. As far as the India's economy growth you mentioned "not exactly earth-shattering at the moment", do note the point "at the moment" - it can increase anytime - say after a reform by govt. of India.

Mate - Don't you think you are oversimplying the situation here. There are lots of "Maybes" at play and lets see how history turns out.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

It can increase anytime - say after a reform by govt. of India.

I don't believe that the current Indian system is capable of bringing such a reform in the immediate future.

The current lame-duck administration will immediately have any reform proposal "torpedoed" by the BJP, and even by their own allies in the government. Look at the retail FDI issue for instance.

Mate - Don't you think you are oversimplying the situation here. There are lots of "Maybes" at play and lets see how history turns out.

Maybe, but during the 50's and 60's we were actually fighting head on against the USA + 16 allies during the Korean War, and then later with the USSR. Combined with the great famine of 1959-1961, we were in an absolutely dreadful situation.

So our position today is obviously far stronger than it was back then, not just vis-a-vis India, but all around. We are now strategic partners with Russia, and the USA is openly proposing things such as the "G-2" and refusing to even cite us for currency manipulation.

 

[ksgokul]

Yeah you guys only recognized Tibet as a part of China recently, after you realized that you could not force the Dalai Lama to seek Tibetan independence.

I think it was recognized even before 1962 clash. It was recognized as an autonomous region under China.

But what about when you actually hosted them in 1959, and when they were conducting guerilla operations against us in the 1960's, as they themselves admitted?

And I already answered your question. You could have disbanded them and allowed them to live out their lives peacefully, instead of using them as a political chip for your games. You could have let them pass through India to any Western country for asylum, to any country that does not have a dispute with our Tibetan border (i.e. any country except India).

Don't you Indian stance was one of the reason, why Tibetians have come down from their previous claim? China accepted Kashmir as part of India and then changed its stance to issue stapled visas. At that time Foreign minister made a hint that if China can go back on its commitments, then India can also go back on its commitment in Tibet. But the official stance never changed.

To be frank, I am not finding much literature related to the guerilla operations, you are mentioning. Since Congress party had an overwhelming majority at that time, it might have been possible for them to conceal certain things. But as i said, I can only talk about our policy after 1962. I don't think India supported any militant organization after 1962.

I mentioned Russia staying neutral while India aligned with other countries. Also the reason why USSR did not help India in 1962 is due to Cuban Missile crisis, right?

India was not an ally of USSR at that time. USSR got closer only during Indra Gandhi's time. We were actually expecting help from US, but we couldn't get any because of the Cuban Missile crisis.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

To be frank, I am not finding much literature related to the guerilla operations, you are mentioning.

Here you go sir.

India hosted the Tibetan government in exile on Indian soil, in 1959. Then during the 1960's, they conducted guerilla operations against us.

New York Times - Dalai Lama group says it carried out operations against China in the 1960's

The Dalai Lama's administration acknowledged today that it received $1.7 million a year in the 1960's from the Central Intelligence Agency, but denied reports that the Tibetan leader benefited personally from an annual subsidy of $180,000.

The money allocated for the resistance movement was spent on training volunteers and paying for guerrilla operations against the Chinese, the Tibetan government-in-exile said in a statement. It added that the subsidy earmarked for the Dalai Lama was spent on setting up offices in Geneva and New York and on international lobbying.

This is straight from the mouth of the Tibetan government in exile, as quoted by the New York Times.

Neither of which could possibly be described as "Chinese propaganda" sources.

I think it was recognized even before 1962 clash. It was recognized as an autonomous region under China.

No, India only recognized suzerainty not sovereignty.

 

[Sashan]

India was not an ally of USSR at that time. USSR got closer only during Indra Gandhi's time. We were actually expecting help from US, but we couldn't get any because of the Cuban Missile crisis.

India was not an ally of USSR in 1962. But Nehru desperately went pleading to both USSR and US. USSR was sympathetic but could not do much due to Cuban Missile Crisis. US and UK started providing help but by that time the war was over.

 

[ksgokul]

Here you go sir.

India hosted the Tibetan government in exile on Indian soil, in 1959. Then during the 1960's, they conducted guerilla operations against us.

New York Times - Dalai Lama group says it carried out operations against China in the 1960's



This is straight from the mouth of the Tibetan government in exile, as quoted by the New York Times.

Neither of which could possibly be described as "Chinese propaganda" sources.

Where does he say that India has any role to play in it? The CPI and CPI-M parties in india were pushing India to be an ally of China. They would have opposed India siding with US against China. It is difficult for me to imagine Nehru doing something like that, as i couldn't find any other similar case, where in he said something and acted differently. But i am ready to accept neutral sources of news.

Let me ask a question back to you. I see that Zhou had accepted that Akshai Chin as part of India before.
" To resolve any doubts about the Indian position, Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru declared in parliament that India regarded the McMahon Line as its official border (what year was this? cannot see link to the reference).[24] The Chinese expressed no concern at this statement,[12][24] and in 1951 and 1952, the government of China asserted that there were no frontier issues to be taken up with India.[24]" ( Source : Wiki )
Why did China later changed the stance? In fact building of Road in Akshai Chin was the first event that caused discomfort in India. Why should China do that?

Joe Shearer/Card Sharp can throw more light on this part of history.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

We don't recognize lines drawn by the Western colonialists.

And it certainly doesn't impress us when India uses these same Western colonial lines to advance their territorial claims. It just seems like India is trying to follow in the legacy of the British Raj.

As for your other point, the Tibetan government in exile was carrying out operations against China while being hosted on Indian soil, like the LTTE was. Which obviously was the point of hosting them in the first place, despite all the "bhai bhai" rhetoric (which coincidentally only came from the Indian side).

 

[ksgokul]

No, India only recognized suzerainty not sovereignty.

I think that should be sufficient to show Indian intentions. India did not recognize ROC also. Or we can argue for the sake of arguing.