Situation Desperate but not critical...

[fatman17]

Had that wish been real, it would have already been fulfilled. Only those who are able to seek find the answers.

For example:

Pakistani army's '$20bn' business

"Siddiqa says the military's private wealth could be as high $20bn, a "rough figure", she says, split between $10bn in land and $10 in private military assets" - aw come on VC. !!!

 

[Battle Axe]

If zardart and nawaz are so bad, than why do people vote for them? It is very strange. after people vote for them then theycriticize them and call them corrupt and bad for Pakistan.
But i guess bad democracy is still preferred over any military takeover.

Comeon, who will care of constitution of he's been running an empty stomach? And then you got to understand the electoral system isn't perfect here, we need direct elections and probably, compulsory voting too but that's fodder for another thread.

 

[VCheng]

Indeed they do. Ideally, they would like to exit all commercial activities and focus solely on their professional fighting duties. But that is not the case because the Civilian Government has proved utterly incompetent to provide them with adequate funding. Due to this, the Army was forced to enter the private industry to provide welfare to its serving and retired soldiers. Army run institutions compete against other private entities in the open market, you can't blame them to be more efficient in their line of work.

Thank you for such an honest post, one with which I have no problem agreeing.

However justified the rationale, the fact remains that the military and its commercial activities are in a league by themselves, and the basic problem it creates is the division between the nation and the Army that is supposed to protect it. The impression that gets created is an Army above and separate from its nation.

"Siddiqa says the military's private wealth could be as high $20bn, a "rough figure", she says, split between $10bn in land and $10 in private military assets" - aw come on VC. !!!

What's a few billion higher or lower, right?

And then these foundations are for welfare of soldiers and officers who lay down their lives, get injured or as we all know retire early and need employment. My father retired as a colonel on completion of service a day before his 45th bd and I, being the eldest had barely passed my O levels then.

That is the rationale for their existence, but please see my reply to Notorious Eagle above.

 

[Battle Axe]

Thank you for such an honest post, one with which I have no problem agreeing.

However justified the rationale, the fact remains that the military and its commercial activities are in a league by themselves, and the basic problem it creates is the division between the nation and the Army that is supposed to protect it. The impression that gets created is an Army above and separate from its nation.



What's a few billion higher or lower, right?



That is the rationale for their existence, but please see my reply to Notorious Eagle above.

Yes, things are not 'idealistic'.

 

[VCheng]

Yes, things are not 'idealistic'.

Pakistan's road to hell is paved with the best of intentions, as such paths usually are.

 

[Battle Axe]

Pakistan's road to hell is paved with the best of intentions, as such paths usually are.

Still, buddy, I disagree. How is that $ 20 billion estate harming the economy? These foundations create jobs, they pay taxes, they build infrastructure: they don't bully other businessman. Take Fauji group or the Askari, their audited accounts are available, they work ethically, so what if they are owned by the army? It's just one three star general who handles all of this: it doesn't compromise the professionalism of army. Let's not mix things. The road to hell or heaven is for the politicians to decide!

 

[VCheng]

so what if they are owned by the army?

It represents gross misappropriation of purpose for the Army.

 

[OrionHunter]

Well, if the military lets proper businesses thrive instead of its own, and it lets go of its stranglehold on power and processes, may be the economy can breathe again. May be?

It's not the military but the government policies or lack thereof for generating funds.

With enormous natural resources that are still lying untapped, Pakistan should have been growing at the rate of at least 6-7% p.a. Instead of solving problems besetting the economy, the policymakers have become stuck in endless debates and politics. (India too is on the same ship at present).

For example, Pakistan has yet to carry out a survey to determine recoverable petroleum reserves. According to US Energy Information Administration’s (EIA) Pakistan has ‘technically’ recoverable reserves of 105 trillion cubic feet (TCF) of gas and 9.1 billion barrels of oil, enough to feed Islamabad’s energy needs from domestic resources for the next half a century.

Pakistan has the world's second largest coal deposits of 185 billion tons. These are estimated to be equivalent to 618 billion barrels of crude oil!!

Pakistan has the fifth largest copper and gold reserves in the world. The Riko deq project, copper and gold reservoir, have been estimated to be worth of 260 billion dollars, which is ten times the all financial aid received from USA in last sixty years! But instead of exploiting own resources for economic independence, Pakistan has been dependent on foreign aid.

There are other partially untapped resources of rock salts, Gypsum, lime stone, iron, marble, and silica sand in large quantities. These resources have not been exploited due to corruption and bottlenecks in political and bureaucratic culture.

So then, it's not because of the Army that you say 'runs big business', but because of mismanagement of the economy, lack of foresight and endemic corruption in the government that has brought Pakistan to this state.

Pakistan is a classic case of a rich country with poor governance.

 

[VCheng]

It's not the military but the government policies or lack thereof for generating funds.

With enormous natural resources that are still lying untapped, Pakistan should have been growing at the rate of at least 6-7% p.a. Instead of solving problems besetting the economy, the policymakers have become stuck in endless debates and politics. (India too is on the same ship at present).

For example, Pakistan has yet to carry out a survey to determine recoverable petroleum reserves. According to US Energy Information Administration’s (EIA) Pakistan has ‘technically’ recoverable reserves of 105 trillion cubic feet (TCF) of gas and 9.1 billion barrels of oil, enough to feed Islamabad’s energy needs from domestic resources for the next half a century.

Pakistan has the world's second largest coal deposits of 185 billion tons. These are estimated to be equivalent to 618 billion barrels of crude oil!!

Pakistan has the fifth largest copper and gold reserves in the world. The Riko deq project, copper and gold reservoir, have been estimated to be worth of 260 billion dollars, which is ten times the all financial aid received from USA in last sixty years! But instead of exploiting own resources for economic independence, Pakistan has been dependent on foreign aid.

There are other partially untapped resources of rock salts, Gypsum, lime stone, iron, marble, and silica sand in large quantities. These resources have not been exploited due to corruption and bottlenecks in political and bureaucratic culture.

So then, it's not because of the Army that you say 'runs big business', but because of mismanagement of the economy, lack of foresight and endemic corruption in the government that has brought Pakistan to this state.

Pakistan is a classic case of a rich country with poor governance.

"Technically recoverable" does not mean readily exploitable reserves. And those other riches that you mention are more myth than fact.

I will agree with you, however, the Pakistan does indeed have poor governance.

 

[notorious_eagle]

It represents gross misappropriation of purpose for the Army.

Whats the alternative? Sitting idle and doing nothing. The pensions that GOP would be paying would be a lot more higher if it weren't for entities like Fauji Foundation. When the Civilian Government fails, other Institutions or Individuals will rise up and find solutions for themselves. Why do you think neighbourhoods or even Towns in Pakistan have arranged for their own electric generation system? Its because the Civilian Government has failed to deliver.

You have to keep something in mind, these entities are independent companies. They operate independently with a very professional and capable Board of Directors and Management. They don't hurt the professional duties of the Army. Most of the employees who serve in these entities are retired military personal, not serving.

 

[VCheng]

Whats the alternative? Sitting idle and doing nothing. The pensions that GOP would be paying would be a lot more higher if it weren't for entities like Fauji Foundation. When the Civilian Government fails, other Institutions or Individuals will rise up and find solutions for themselves. Why do you think neighbourhoods or even Towns in Pakistan have arranged for their own electric generation system? Its because the Civilian Government has failed to deliver.

You have to keep something in mind, these entities are independent companies. They operate independently with a very professional and capable Board of Directors and Management. They don't hurt the professional duties of the Army. Most of the employees who serve in these entities are retired military personal, not serving.

I agree with most of the above. But the fact remains that such businesses have nothing to do with what an Army is supposed to do, no matter how one tries to justify it. Therefore, they represent a corruption of purpose, clearly, despite any claims that they do not affect the professional duties. There is a widening gulf between these enterprises and the rest of the economy and government. The consequences of such a gulf are not going to be pleasant, the most important of which is losing the trust of the nation. The signs are already there.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I agree with most of the above. But the fact remains that such businesses have nothing to do with what an Army is supposed to do, no matter how one tries to justify it. Therefore, they represent a corruption of purpose, clearly, despite any claims that they do not affect the professional duties. There is a widening gulf between these enterprises and the rest of the economy and government.

Please expand?

The consequences of such a gulf are not going to be pleasant, the most important of which is losing the trust of the nation. The signs are already there.

I fail to see how you arrived to this conclusion?

This recent controversy of ISI/GEO is proof enough that Pakistanis trust and respect their Army. The nation rallied behind the Armed Forces forcing GEO to back off. Pakistan Army still commands the most highest approval ratings of any Institution in Pakistan.

 

[VCheng]

Please expand?

Look at it this way: the only working organization and it members are so much better off than the rest of the country that it is creating resentment among the people who are lacking miserably in social development. Until now the Army has been able to pin the blame on the politicians, but gradually its own failures and behind-the scenes manipulations are coming to light, slowly but surely. Many are trying to hasten this process as well.

I fail to see how you arrived to this conclusion?

This recent controversy of ISI/GEO is proof enough that Pakistanis trust and respect their Army. The nation rallied behind the Armed Forces forcing GEO to back off. Pakistan Army still commands the most highest approval ratings of any Institution in Pakistan.

The ISI/Geo controversy is not yet decided, so I will not saying anything at this point. All I will submit at this point is that the Army cannot continue to take such support of the people for granted for much longer. It will have to show that is a competent and effective fighting force, not merely a select club and business.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Pakistan has to concentrate on improving the Economy.

As Bill Clinton once famously said " It is the Economy , Stupid "......

 

[fatman17]

Armed forces seek Rs 752bn in defence budget in 2014-15
* Army expected to get Rs 372bn, PAF Rs 157bn and navy Rs 75bn * Defence Ministry wants Finance Division to increase budget for armed forces by at least 20pc

• By Sardar Sikander Shaheen
• April 29, 2014

ISLAMABAD: The defence authorities have recommended to the federal government an allocation of Rs 752 billion for the fiscal year 2014-15, which is also 20 percent more than the ongoing fiscal year’s defence budget of Rs 627, presently revised at Rs 655 billion.
The authorities sought more than Rs 372 billion for the Pakistan Army, Rs 157 billion for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and Rs 75 billion for the Pakistan Navy in the upcoming defence budget (operational), Daily Times has learnt.
With budgetary allocations for federal government departments and related organisations under the preparatory phase, the Defence Ministry has formally recommended to the Ministry of Finance/Finance Division an increase of not less than 20 percent in the annual fiscal budget of the armed force for the upcoming year (2014-15), starting in coming June, it is further learnt.
The Defence Ministry’s reported recommendations, according to informed Military Finance officials, landed at the Finance Ministry sometime in the recent past, following interactions between the three services chiefs and Finance Minister Ishaq Dar in the recent months.
Last Wednesday, this correspondent inquired from Defence Minister Khawaja Asif, prior to his leaving for Turkey, whether the defence budget for the three defence services was finalised and if he could share any relevant details involving the specifications on this count.
The minister replied that the budgetary allocations were in the preparatory phase and no exact figures could be given.
Sources, on the other hand, share that the Defence Ministry has already sent its recommendations to the Finance Division/Ministry of Finance in the ongoing month regarding the next fiscal year’s defence budget, which, the officials said, are expected to be incorporated in the finalised budgetary allocations without any major changes.
Interestingly, the defence budget (2013-14) initially included the annual budget of the Aviation Division comprising the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), Pakistan International Airlines (PIA), Airport Security Force (ASF) and Pakistan Meteorological Department.
But following the government’s decision to separate Aviation Division from the Defence Ministry’s administrative control, last year, funds were diverted from the defence budget to Aviation Division accordingly. In the next fiscal year, up to Rs 250 billion are expected to go the Aviation Division, of which, the PIA, which is to be privatised, is expected to get Rs 125 billion, as compared to its present budget of Rs 105 billion.