Silly question!!!!

[Keysersoze]

Ok I have to say there has been something that has bothered me for a while. And while some Might see this as being irrelevant I feel i have to put this question forward..........

BEARDS IN THE MILITARY!

Now when I did my recruits training many moons ago. I was told there were two main reasons for having a "no beards" policy.
1) Field hygiene--It is harder to maintain with a beard (Of course there is the exception of jungle warfare environs (shaving cuts don't heal properly and could become infected in the jungle) I believe it was after the Crimean campaign in the 1800's that the no beards rule was instituted in the British army, for this very reason.
2)Also having a beard could affect the fit of certain devices that have military significance. I.E gas masks in NBC kit or in the case of the airforce oxygen type kit.(I may be mistaken but I remember a pilot being told that he could not fly with it (PAK AF)????)

Now while I am fully aware that there are a number of religious soldiers around and of the significance of the beard in Islam (so no explanations on that front please!) However do you not think that whilst they are serving. that in name of having an army that will be slightly more efficient that they could put aside their beards until they leave the service?

Any thoughts?

 

[Thunder]

Their are many people in the pak army i've seen with beards, but most of them also have mustaches. Also pakistan has sikhs in the army too( they leave their hair because of religous reasons). Also i think the army pays you extra RS:5 if you keep your mustache. Though i goota comfoirm that.

 

[EagleEyes]

Exta 5 RS? What the hell? Where did you hear that? Somebody was probably joking with you dear.

keyser,

I dont think there is anyone in the air force which is allowed to have a beard when flying planes (Sir, Murad however can confirm that), but i am pretty sure there is a lot of majority who has beard for example maintenance crews, air defence crews, etc.

Pakistan Army goes fine, and does fine without or with beards. There is so far no major problems with it, so i dont think it would be a good idea to actually ban beards in a islamic military.

Do you know if Turkish Army allows beard in the army? I must ask because they are much more modern muslims, and not many have conservative minds.

 

[A.Rahman]

I must ask because they are much more modern muslims, and not many have conservative minds.

The Quran calls Muslims "the middle nation", i.e. not of extremes

 

[Thunder]

The turk army is secular.

Exta 5 RS? What the hell? Where did you hear that? Somebody was probably joking with you dear.

Well if you say so......:army: <---- no beard

 

[Thunder]

I must ask because they are much more modern muslims, and not many have conservative minds

Bro, there is no such thing as a "morden" or cinservative" muslim. Those taliben type people are extermists and are using islam to hide their deeds. And no such thing as a morden muslim. Turkey is secular and sometimes seuclar to the extermes. They still have the hijib banned in universties and political buildings. <-- A muslim country!!!!!

 

[Keysersoze]

Hmmm I haven't seen any Turkish army guys with beards.....or any turkish civilians either!

I have thought about this and think that maybe the emphasis on the cold war may have had some effect on the thinking of armies where no beards are allowed. (for example Turkey was part of NATO) and since NBC weapons were an important part of the WARSAW PACT's arsenal. Maybe the issue became more important?

The reason I bring it up at all, is that small things such as this can have an effect on military efficiency. And a live muslim soldier without a beard is more effective than a dead one with one. (talking about gas masks specifically here)

 

[Thunder]

Hmmm I haven't seen any Turkish army guys with beards.....or any turkish civilians either!

I have thought about this and think that maybe the emphasis on the cold war may have had some effect on the thinking of armies where no beards are allowed. (for example Turkey was part of NATO) and since NBC weapons were an important part of the WARSAW PACT's arsenal. Maybe the issue became more important?

The reason I bring it up at all, is that small things such as this can have an effect on military efficiency. And a live muslim soldier without a beard is more effective than a dead one with one. (talking about gas masks specifically here)

I think you are given nets to orginaze your beard in keep it neatly so it can fit under a gas mask etc. Also in islam you are only suppose to keep your beard as the size of fist. Longer then that you goota trim it.

 

[Muradk]

Exta 5 RS? What the hell? Where did you hear that? Somebody was probably joking with you dear.

keyser,

I dont think there is anyone in the air force which is allowed to have a beard when flying planes (Sir, Murad however can confirm that), but i am pretty sure there is a lot of majority who has beard for example maintenance crews, air defence crews, etc.

Pakistan Army goes fine, and does fine without or with beards. There is so far no major problems with it, so i dont think it would be a good idea to actually ban beards in a islamic military.

Do you know if Turkish Army allows beard in the army? I must ask because they are much more modern muslims, and not many have conservative minds.

After we had that crash and the Investigation showed that the pilot died of
hypoxia because he had a big beard.
The issue over here is not the long beard but how long. PAF has set up parameters for facial hair i.e. the length of beard a fighter pilot can keep. If the length is bigger than the prescribed length than the pilot is reprimanded according code of conduct of PAF.

The oxygen mask doesn't fit well if the beard is long, therefore, compromising the safety and security of the pilot. The lower part of the oxygen mask fits below the chin and if there is long beard it doesn't fit.
after doing HAJ in 1978 I had a big beard and the first time I sat in a mirage after holidays I was just confused because it was a wierd feeling I could not wear my oxygen mask properly and yes during a mission I went cookoo and the very next day my flight surgon told me why and after 20 years PAF realised what is going on. So as long as there beard is small enough so that the oxygen mask fits perfectly and no oxygen is leaking PAF has no problem.
But saying that GDPs cannot keep a beard is a wrong statement.

 

[Janbaz]

Beards are a completely personal matter and profiling due to it is wrong .

 

[Neo]

I dont think there is anyone in the air force which is allowed to have a beard when flying planes (Sir, Murad however can confirm that), but i am pretty sure there is a lot of majority who has beard for example maintenance crews, air defence crews, etc.

Beards are allowed in PAF, there's an interesting recent case that occured in October last year when Sduadron Leader M.H. Ranjha refused to trimm his beard. He was grounded and a precedent was set.

"Muslim airman grounded after beard row"

(Reuters, April 11, 2006)

Islamabad, Pakistan - The Pakistani government defended on Monday a decision to forcibly retire an air force officer who refused to trim his beard on religious grounds.

Squadron Leader Mohsin Hayat Ranjha was retired in October and four of his colleagues were grounded for violating a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) dress code that allows trimmed beards, but bars long beards on the grounds they pose a safety risk.

"There is no ban on any Pakistan Air Force personnel of any rank keeping a beard, but there has to be a limit on the length of a beard," Tanveer Hussain Syed, parliamentary secretary for defence, told parliament after an Islamist opposition lawmaker raised the issue.

Oxygen masks worn by airmen flying at high altitude can malfunction as a result of beards being too bushy, Syed said, after Islamist politician Liaquat Baluch accused the air force of enforcing un-Islamic rules.

Many strict Muslims believe that their faith compels them to wear a beard.

Syed said Ranjha was asked to trim his facial hair as a long beard made it difficult to fix the mask tightly on the face, which could be dangerous for both the pilot and the machine.

"He not only refused to do it, in violation of the dress code of a PAF officer, but he also incited others to grow similar beards."

PAF spokesperson Air Commodore Sarfaraz Ahmed Khan confirmed Ranjha had been forced into early retirement and that the cases of four other PAF officers, including another squadron leader, were still under consideration.

Several low-ranking PAF and army personnel were involved in an al Qaeda-inspired assassination attempt on President Pervez Musharraf's life in December 2003, and a number have been executed.

Musharraf came to power in a military coup in 1999, and enraged many Pakistani militants, who had previously enjoyed close ties with the military, by joining a US-led global war on terrorism in late 2001.

Musharraf has also sought to reverse the Islamisation of the armed forces that took place in the 1980s under Pakistan's last military ruler, President Mohammad Zia ul-Haq.

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=21132&sec=33&con=26

 

[niaz]

Beards are a completely personal matter and profiling due to it is wrong .

Very true, nevertheless under Taliban rule you would be forced to keep the beard of a minimum lenght else you would be punished. I have been working in UAE for the last 3 to 4 years. There is a lot less emphasis on outwardly signs such as beards or shalwar higher than ancles.There are prayer leaders with either no or very slight beard. Don't know why in Pakistan there is so much fuss about the beard and its lenght. We like doing everything in the extreme eh?

 

[Janbaz]

Very true Niaz brother! Very true indeed.

 

[Keysersoze]

Hmmm it's interesting.

I guess what started this stream of thought was an image that I saw from the Algerian revolution. The picture was of several soldiers at prayer with a single picket guarding them. I was quite young at the time. But I remember thinking- What if they get ambushed?

This started a thought process in my mind....When does religion become a problem in military (operational) matters? After all the primary task of soldier is not to lose the war in which he is fighting.

 

[sigatoka]

I guess what started this stream of thought was an image that I saw from the Algerian revolution. The picture was of several soldiers at prayer with a single picket guarding them. I was quite young at the time. But I remember thinking- What if they get ambushed?

This started a thought process in my mind....When does religion become a problem in military (operational) matters? After all the primary task of soldier is not to lose the war in which he is fighting.

This is a question of theory and empiricis. In thoery religion can motivate a soldier to fight harder and to be less willing to surrender or it can cause him to be killed while praying.

In practise in Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon it seems that its motivational impact outweighs its other shortcomings. After all the U.S. is withdrawing within 24 months from Iraq in which its opponents had no support from a superpower or regional power like Vietcong had in Soviet Union and China.

It just seems that the technological gulf between the U.S. and its opponents is simply not as great as was assumed. When I use the term technology, i refer to its use as it is done in economics. That is the capability (output) generated with a given set of inputs (men/labour and weapons/capital). It would be very difficult to say that religion has had a negative impact on the U.S.'s opponents in fighting capability, if anything it is either neutral or slightly positive (or some would argue greatly positive). Were it not for the countless death and destruction caused by this conflict, the irony of the situation would be bordering on the humours that a group of few thousand is stalking a global hyperpower when the strongest of nations and empires in Japan and Germany and Spain have crumbled before it.