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Sikh youths clash with Jammu police over posters of separatist leader

Lahore should be the capital of the new Sikh country. Apart from that, Balochis, Sindhis and Pathans must be freed from Punjabi army domination . A new country might also be needed for Shia and Ahmedis. These communities must learn from the Bangladeshis how to forcefully take their rights :lol:

Sikhs can try to take Lahore they will be slaughtered like dogs and then to rub salt in their wounds Nankana will be put to flames.

Because Veer Savarkar was fighting for the freedom of your people and mine, from a colonial power. He also fought to eliminate many evil social practices in the hindu community. He did not create an armed militia, or plant bombs like Bhindranwale's people did. He did not stock up machine guns and grenades in temples, like Bhindranwale did.

He was fighting for hindus like you and your ilk not for Muslims whose loyalty he cast doubt upon before partition was even a serious idea. He played a major part in exasperating communal tensions and was the ideological father of the killer of Gandhi.
 
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Sikhs can try to take Lahore they will be slaughtered like dogs and then to rub salt in their wounds Nankana will be put to flames.
But you think they can carve out Indian territory. It's funny, Pakistnis always say that this group or that group will take large parts of India, but whenever somebody suggests that happening to Pakistan, immediately they go into a paroxysm of rage, and envision nukes and utter destruction. It never occurs to them that India can do everything that Pak can do against seperatists, and then a lot more. But oh no, Indians will helplessly sit and wath them take Punjab or Kashmir or Assam, whereas it is unthinkable for Paksitan.

Some day you will have to see the real world. The stronger and richer countries have a much better chance of quelling insurgencies. The Punjab insurgency in the 80s was killed and buried by India. But the Bengal insurgency took away half of Pakistan.

(BTW, you trash talked me on another thread where I made this claim. I could not respond since the thread was locked. East Pakistan was more than half your country by population, not land area.)

TL/DR version: Read this post of yours again, and raise it to the power of seven, to know what would happen to anybody who tries to split India. Our economy is seven times larger, and consequently, so is our ability to sustain any sourt of war, conventional or sub conventional.

He was fighting for hindus like you and your ilk not for Muslims whose loyalty he cast doubt upon before partition was even a serious idea. He played a major part in exasperating communal tensions and was the ideological father of the killer of Gandhi.

I could give you a long lecture about those times, but it is off topic. The short version is that Gandhi and the Indian national congress itself played a large part in alienating muslims, and making many of them fear the future. Jinnah's calls for partition was motivated by fears of a hindu dominated congress, not a hindu mahasabha. Read all of Jinnah's speeches, and you can corroborate that.

One last thing - I have stated before that I am not a hindu. Your insistence on calling me one betrays an all too common mindset among certain people, to label anybody who doesn't agree with them as "hindus" or "jews", as if that itself is an insult. I have not made any personal remarks about you or anybody else - I would request the same courtesy from you that you don't bring my religious beliefs or other personal matters into it. If you do, you will not get a civil response from me. Or any response for that matter.
 
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But you think they can carve out Indian territory. It's funny, Pakistnis always say that this group or that group will take large parts of India, but whenever somebody suggests that happening to Pakistan, immediately they go into a paroxysm of rage, and envision nukes and utter destruction..

History is an imperative academic subject, because it elucidates the notion how civilizations are created from the off-set and where the victors have the convenience of shaping new demographics for their empire. This conjecture can be applied to both Pakistan and India for obvious reasons due to social, cultural, religious, ideological and economical differences. From my prospective India will face a number of challenges in the next two decades from vigilante groups who have the desire to split from the union. This is because when a country is prone to develop at an alarming rate, the distribution income gap tends to widen considerable which obviously leads to grievances. The same aspect can be applied to Pakistan, therefore the government of the day must find relevant solutions to resolves these grievances. The massacre and the destruction of the Golden Temple will never be forgotten, because its ingrained in the very psychic mindset of Sikhs who revere the holy site. Therefore, its plausible to assume that maybe in the future an uprising could occur to carve out a new state in Punjab called Khalistan. Their is a huge difference between hurting the cultural sentiments of a particular community (Baluchistan) and desecrating the sacred sanctuaries of a certain religion. You advocate the assumption that Pakistani's in general are pugnacious in character because they are inclined to envision a scenario of nuke destruction, however your Minister yesterday was boldly stating how the Indian Army could surgically strike targets within the territorial boundaries of Pakistan.

. Some day you will have to see the real world. The stronger and richer countries have a much better chance of quelling insurgencies. The Punjab insurgency in the 80s was killed and buried by India. But the Bengal insurgency took away half of Pakistan.

The American revolutionists were regarded by the parliamentarians of the British Empire as an insurgency group. In the 18th century Great Britain was respected as the strongest global maritime power with significant riches to boot. However they failed to squash the insurgency, because the Unites States was created as a result. Developed countries have a high ratio percentage of quelling insurgencies, however India is classified as a developing nation, a huge stark of difference. Pakistan loss Bangladesh because of the demographic difference between East and West Pakistan and the cultural divergences that existed at the time. In my opinion it was unfeasible to quell an insurgency which was based on the other side of the spectrum where you enemy is located in the middle. Punjab insurgency has been quite in recent years, because Pakistan has not actively supported or funded such groups, other this can always change depending on the geopolitical scenario. For example the United States is leaving Afghanistan, which means the process of sending groups into Kashmir will increase.

TL/DR version: Read this post of yours again, and raise it to the power of seven, to know what would happen to anybody who tries to split India. Our economy is seven times larger, and consequently, so is our ability to sustain any sourt of war, conventional or sub conventional.

Your dispute is with King Mamba and its not my business to intervene in your discussion. Although when a person demonstrates arrogance they tend to fall very hard. There is a very famous quote in Punjab "the empty water vessel makes the loudest noise"

So your economy is essentially seven times bigger than Pakistan, congratulations in achieving a commendable aim. Although in your blind patriotism for India, you seem to forget the important factoid that your population size is nearly 6 times larger than Pakistan. Which in economic terms signifies that the allocation of resources would be much more scarce for citizens who reside in your country. Hence why its not surprising to hear the level of poverty being more detrimental than the whole of Africa. Then you were bold enough to proclaim how India can sustain the ability for a prolonged conventional war, when your own Defence report from 2009-13 shows how the Army can fight for only 20 days not the bogus invented figure of 45 days. Pakistan is changing and the situation of its economic plight will cease in the future because investment will flow into the country. Indian members need to realize that in the next decade your country must attract $1 trillion in the infrastructure sector for you to compete with rival competitors on the economic front. Failure to do so would leave India in big trouble.
 
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From my prospective India will face a number of challenges in the next two decades from vigilante groups who have the desire to split from the union. This is because when a country is prone to develop at an alarming rate, the distribution income gap tends to widen considerable which obviously leads to grievances.
Unequal income distribution is irrelevant to India's insurgencies. Punjab was the richest state in India prior to, and after the insurgency. It continues to be so even today. But it was hit by a very powerful insurgency. Unless the economic disparity is corelated to geographic region, it is not a factor. To use Pakistan's example, the Balochistani insurgency has economic issues at its heart - despite the vast mineral wealth of the region, the economic growth is happening mostly in Punjab and Sindh. That is often cited as one reason. But the North-east insurgencies of India have little to do with unequal economic growth. Neither did the Punjab or Kashmir insurgency.

BTW, rapid economic rise only makes people want to be part of that rapidly rising nation, not break away. Tibet and China comes to mind as an example.

The massacre and the destruction of the Golden Temple will never be forgotten, because its ingrained in the very psychic mindset of Sikhs who revere the holy site. Therefore, its plausible to assume that maybe in the future an uprising could occur to carve out a new state in Punjab called Khalistan.

I'm sure that Sikhs are also not foolish enough to forget who violated the sanctity of the golden temple, by stocking up arms and ammunition and fighters in it, and converted a holy site of worship into a military fortress. BTW there was no "destruction" of the temple - it still stands today. There was a lot of damage, and the Indian army and the govt themselves cleaned the place and repaied the damages. There was no way to clear the temple without any damage to it, given how meticulously it had been fortified.

Yes, it is a painful chapter for Sikhs. But the blame does not lie squarely on India or the Indian army. The blame lies on the people who fortified that place - ie, Bhindranwale. The destruction of the red mosque cannot be pinned on the SSG - no country can allow a temple or mosque to be a base for militants.

You advocate the assumption that Pakistani's in general are pugnacious in character because they are inclined to envision a scenario of nuke destruction, however your Minister yesterday was boldly stating how the Indian Army could surgically strike targets within the territorial boundaries of Pakistan.

You got that bit wrong. I was pointing out how another member was assuming that Pakistanis are so pugnacious that Sikhs won't dare to take territory from them, but Indians will let it happen. Notice his utter contempt for the notion that Sikhs could do that to Lahore - he talked very pugnaciously about anybody who would try that. I was pointing out that the same applies in much larger measure to anybody who tries that to India.

The American revolutionists were regarded by the parliamentarians of the British Empire as an insurgency group. In the 18th century Great Britain was respected as the strongest global maritime power with significant riches to boot. However they failed to squash the insurgency, because the Unites States was created as a result.

America was not a small state within Britain. It was a continent thousands of miles away, at a time when air mobility didn't exist. So Britain being unable to control American revolutionaries has nothing to do with India not being able to hold on to her own territory. Even today, it is difficult for any developed nation to defeat a large continent full of people far away. But it is equally difficult for a small number of insurgents to break a state away from a much larger and powerful country.

Punjab insurgency has been quite in recent years, because Pakistan has not actively supported or funded such groups, other this can always change depending on the geopolitical scenario.

Punjab insurgency became quiet because Indian forces floored, quelled, vanquished and annihilated them - despite Pakistan's support at the time. The Punjab police crushed every single one of them with an iron hand. The insurgency arose because of the charismatic preaching of Bhindranwale, his initial support by the GoI, which made him a cult like figure and messiah. Today all that is gone. Punjabis (or sikhs) are no in the thrall of a messiah figuure, and they are happy to be part of India. You are deluded if you think that some arms and money from Pakistan will change this. No, not unless you can first create another Bhindranwale. Some money from India will not create an insurgency in Pak Punjab either.
 
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Unequal income distribution is irrelevant to India's insurgencies. Punjab was the richest state in India prior to, and after the insurgency. It continues to be so even today. But it was hit by a very powerful insurgency. Unless the economic disparity is corelated to geographic region, it is not a factor. To use Pakistan's example, the Balochistani insurgency has economic issues at its heart - despite the vast mineral wealth of the region, the economic growth is happening mostly in Punjab and Sindh. That is often cited as one reason. But the North-east insurgencies of India have little to do with unequal economic growth. Neither did the Punjab or Kashmir insurgency.

The insurgency currently transpiring across the spectrum of the Red Corridor region of India is based upon social class differences and the disparity of income gap between the wealthy and the poor. During the process of industrialization the landscape is altered and a huge number of multi-national corporations, adversely destroy the natural environment and much of the proceeds does not actually reach the common man on the streets. Therefore, a number of tribes within these regions have certain grievances and this cannot be ignored because then a person becomes blind due to patriotism. There is a specific reason why your defense forces have advocated the perceived threat from the Naxalites to be much more potent and detrimental than Pakistan. Furthermore, this aspect can also occur in Pakistan as in the example of Baluchistan. Patriotism for your country is good, however never riposte in your statements that the unthinkable can never occur.

I concur with your proclamation that Punjab is a rich state, although cultural and religious differences have arisen. The burning of the Golden Temple will never be forgiven or forgotten, if we based our assumptions on how Sikhs regard Muslims due to the atrocities committed by Shah Abdali and Aurangzeb. India has exacerbated the issue because no criminal charges were laid upon the offenders who killed 20,000 innocent Sikhs and gang-raped countless women across Punjab. When justice is not delivered to the proletarians of a society, then anarchy tends materialize due to achieving the objective aim of bringing street justice for the aggrieved families.Now you might correspond in your message, that my figures are exaggerated and I have painted a dreadful picture of the Indian government and its role in Punjab, however deep down we both know the reality of what actually occurred in 1984.

BTW, rapid economic rise only makes people want to be part of that rapidly rising nation, not break away. Tibet and China comes to mind as an example

Actually your assumption is incorrect because I have worked and lived in China for a number of years. The issue of Xinjiang for example is based upon social class difference. When Xinjiang Production and Construction Corporation was established in 1954, most of the workers who had the opportunity to receive jobs were predominately Han. In fact the contemporary percentage ratio of Han migrated workers is 90%, while the remaining 10% is from other ethnic groups. Therefore, certain elements of the Uighur society has grievances against the Chinese government. Another example is the idea of Hetian Jade, which the price per kilogram is 10,000 Yuan however this magnificent unique resource has not benefited the Uighur community. Therefore, uprisings have occurred in 1990 in the city of Barin, Operation Strike Hard Campaign in 1996 and countless others in the previous last decade. So to assume that a rapidly rising nation does not break away into smaller fragments is erroneous in nature. In the case of Tibet the Chinese government has done a fantastic job, although self-immolation is still occurring as a sign of protest against CCP rule in the region.

This year Great Britain had the best GDP growth in the entire European Union and more jobs have been created by David Cameron than France, Germany and Italy combined together in the last five years. Still Scotland wanted a referendum on the question of independence and they will eventually gain this objective because 45% of the population was in favor of SNP and they are now the third largest party in Westminster. So in a developing country which has a significant landmass and is growing rapidly, the chances of states breaking away are larger.

I'm sure that Sikhs are also not foolish enough to forget who violated the sanctity of the golden temple, by stocking up arms and ammunition and fighters in it, and converted a holy site of worship into a military fortress. BTW there was no "destruction" of the temple - it still stands today. There was a lot of damage, and the Indian army and the govt themselves cleaned the place and repaied the damages. There was no way to clear the temple without any damage to it, given how meticulously it had been fortified.

Your paragraph is full of presumptions and is not factually true. The Golden Temple was damaged in particular the Akal Takh which is considered to be the highest seated position in the Khalsa authority and this is an insult to all Sikhs because Guru Hargobind built this sacred site and the Indian Army desecrated such a revered location. What you failed to mention in your previous message was that the Indian Army did repair the damages of the Akal Takh, however the incensed Sikh community actually tore the structure down and made a new building from donations from Sikh followers across the globe. Mecca the most revered and holiest site of Islam was sieged in 1979 by over 600 militants and it was fortified.The coalition forces which included Pakistani and Saudi commando's did not send in tanks, because they knew full well that damage of the revered site would hurt the sentiments of the Muslims across the world...and the action would never be forgive.

Yes, it is a painful chapter for Sikhs. But the blame does not lie squarely on India or the Indian army. The blame lies on the people who fortified that place - ie, Bhindranwale. The destruction of the red mosque cannot be pinned on the SSG - no country can allow a temple or mosque to be a base for militants.

The blame does lie squarely on the Indian Army and the Congress Government. It was Indira Gandhi who first promoted Bhindranwala in Punjab to counter rising Sikh voices for succession or autonomy. So the fortification and the stock piles of weapons should be blamed on Congress because after all, you gave Bhindranwala the chance to achieve political patronage in Punjab, where an environment was created for him to eventually betray Congress when he realized the plight and oppression of the Sikhs, thus aligning himself with the movement of Khalistan.

Second the Indian Army did not plan with meticulous care of organizing an operation that could neutralize the terrorists in the Golden Temple with minimal damage. The operation was poor conceived, hence why a number of innocent people were actually brutally killed in operation blue star. However the worse outcome of this issue is in reference to the Indian Army's inability to stop the massacre of 20,000 innocent Sikhs and the casual gang-rape of women...in which no offender was convicted.....no justice.

America was not a small state within Britain. It was a continent thousands of miles away, at a time when air mobility didn't exist. So Britain being unable to control American revolutionaries has nothing to do with India not being able to hold on to her own territory. Even today, it is difficult for any developed nation to defeat a large continent full of people far away. But it is equally difficult for a small number of insurgents to break a state away from a much larger and powerful country.

So from your analogy we can agree on the subject that Pakistan only loss Bangladesh because the territory was thousands of kilometers away and it was impossible to airlift troops. Clearly your knowledge on the 13 colonies is lackluster because at that time Great Britain was regarded as the strongest maritime power in the world, however they still loss America to the revolutionists. Now in your correspondence you wrote precisely that India can never exhibit the same features of the American revolution, because the land is held within the same continent. Clearly this does not hold true in the case of East Timor when a rising revolt led to its succession from Indonesia. Shall we also deliberate on how the Ottoman Turks loss most of the Middle East to rising Arab nationalists insurgents? India is a developing nation...so please even under the circumstances of blind patriotism don't label it with the title developed nation. It is difficult for a small number of insurgents to break away from a state...however never impossible.

Punjab insurgency became quiet because Indian forces floored, quelled, vanquished and annihilated them - despite Pakistan's support at the time. The Punjab police crushed every single one of them with an iron hand. The insurgency arose because of the charismatic preaching of Bhindranwale, his initial support by the GoI, which made him a cult like figure and messiah. Today all that is gone. Punjabis (or sikhs) are no in the thrall of a messiah figuure, and they are happy to be part of India. You are deluded if you think that some arms and money from Pakistan will change this. No, not unless you can first create another Bhindranwale. Some money from India will not create an insurgency in Pak Punjab either

Punjab insurgency has not vanished because if you actually read on the subject assassinations and attacks do continue, even though they are more sporadic in nature. I will respect your opinion however this post was full of blind patriotism. Pakistan stopped supporting the Khalistan movement when Bhutto Benazir came into office. This was one of the reasons why the brass in Pakistan were angry with her. Punjab police has crushed them with an iron hand, therefore why is it surprising to see young Sikhs on the streets of India protesting against the government and sticking posters of Bhindranwala....does this bring shivers down your back.
 
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But you think they can carve out Indian territory. It's funny, Pakistnis always say that this group or that group will take large parts of India, but whenever somebody suggests that happening to Pakistan, immediately they go into a paroxysm of rage, and envision nukes and utter destruction. It never occurs to them that India can do everything that Pak can do against seperatists, and then a lot more. But oh no, Indians will helplessly sit and wath them take Punjab or Kashmir or Assam, whereas it is unthinkable for Paksitan.

Some day you will have to see the real world. The stronger and richer countries have a much better chance of quelling insurgencies. The Punjab insurgency in the 80s was killed and buried by India. But the Bengal insurgency took away half of Pakistan.

(BTW, you trash talked me on another thread where I made this claim. I could not respond since the thread was locked. East Pakistan was more than half your country by population, not land area.)

TL/DR version: Read this post of yours again, and raise it to the power of seven, to know what would happen to anybody who tries to split India. Our economy is seven times larger, and consequently, so is our ability to sustain any sourt of war, conventional or sub conventional.



I could give you a long lecture about those times, but it is off topic. The short version is that Gandhi and the Indian national congress itself played a large part in alienating muslims, and making many of them fear the future. Jinnah's calls for partition was motivated by fears of a hindu dominated congress, not a hindu mahasabha. Read all of Jinnah's speeches, and you can corroborate that.

One last thing - I have stated before that I am not a hindu. Your insistence on calling me one betrays an all too common mindset among certain people, to label anybody who doesn't agree with them as "hindus" or "jews", as if that itself is an insult. I have not made any personal remarks about you or anybody else - I would request the same courtesy from you that you don't bring my religious beliefs or other personal matters into it. If you do, you will not get a civil response from me. Or any response for that matter.

Khalistan has a slim chance in India because Sikhs actually form a majority in their parts, in Lahore they are not even a micro percent so yes they would indeed be slaughtered. Population does not matter and your statement in that thread like the statement made by many of your deluded countrymen was about the geography of Pakistan. Of course now its about the population because you realized how stupid you are. Your fellow endians all do the same. :lol: Needless to say Bangladesh was never half of Pakistan. Again I think you need to go back to geography class, the success of Bangladesh's rebellion versus the failure of the Sikhs has everything to do with geography. I am not here to educate you so you can figure it out on your own, or don't idgaf.

That is because Congress was in a position of power legally but I am not talking about the legal threat of the Hindu Mahasabha rather the ideology that was started by him. years in advance of partition. Oh yes of course you are not a hindu, except that nearly all Indian "Muslims" that join pdf turn out to be Hindus :lol:. Call me a skeptic, funny shit that you took it as an insult though. That betrays more of your own mindset that you took it as an insult then mine since i never use "Hindu" as an insult. If I had meant to insult you I would have used much more colorful words. :lol:
 
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. Population does not matter and your statement in that thread like the statement made by many of your deluded countrymen was about the geography of Pakistan. Of course now its about the population because you realized how stupid you are. Your fellow endians all do the same. :lol: Needless to say Bangladesh was never half of Pakistan. Again I think you need to go back to geography class,

Prepare to be pwned.

You think I was not aware of the geographical size? You think I was referring to land area? I can prove that I knew what I was talking about, because I have made the same statement, with the same clarification, right here on the forum. Here is my post from May 7th:

Secularism in its truest form | Page 3

I was responding to another Pakstani member who said that East Pak was not more than half, and I told him that I was talking about population. So there you have it - irrefutable proof that I knew what I was saying, and that you are not the first one to bring this revelation of geography to me.

Here is a screen grab:

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the success of Bangladesh's rebellion versus the failure of the Sikhs has everything to do with geography. I am not here to educate you so you can figure it out on your own, or don't idgaf.
The success of Bangladesh was because the Indian army first trained and armed them, and then rolled in with the big guns, and swept Pakistani forces away. Otherwise, they could not have defeated Pakistan's armour and airpower, just as Syrian insurgents are powerless against Assad's airpower and armour.

Oh yes of course you are not a hindu, except that nearly all Indian "Muslims" that join pdf turn out to be Hindus :lol:. Call me a skeptic, funny shit that you took it as an insult though. That betrays more of your own mindset that you took it as an insult then mine since i never use "Hindu" as an insult. If I had meant to insult you I would have used much more colorful words. :lol:

You are not very bright, are you? Nor very adept and reading. I said "as if that's an insult", which means that I did not consider it an insult or take it as one, but Pakistanis often intend it as one. Anyway, since you persist in making personal remarks despite my polite request to desist, I will not be responding to you.
 
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