Sikh To Death, a War nerd's tribute to Sikh warriors

[ranveer]

Yes, I will call them brave. Since it takes courage to do what you plan to do knowing fully well the consequences of your actions. They knew they'd die still they went ahead and did it. An evil, tyrannical, ruler like her deserved it.

very true!!!

 

[ranveer]

*Sigh*

Here we go again. The wounds of 1984 have almost healed, but the last few scabs remain. In the end, it comes down to exactly this point. Let's not pretend that it's not a Sikh vs Mona POV.

IG created Bhindranwale, yes. After a point, it was Sikhs Vs Hindus in Punjab, and we know who was at the wrong end of the barrel.

The Golden temple was a fortress- a holy place that was used for military means. I'll give you the allowance of "The Sikhs are a martial race, this was their last stand and it's ok that Bhindranwale was living and sleeping and performing bodily functions in the same room as the Holy Book". Fine, defiling the holiest place of worship is justified in your eyes.

In the end, Militants in the Golden Temple represented a direct challenge to the Sovereignty of the Indian state, a lot like a certain attack on Parliament. In your opinion, was that OK? Perhaps you think that was a good thing, do let me know.

Op Black Thunder in 1986 was more successful because they learned lessons from Blue Star. Also, the situation was very different. The militants were much better prepared in '84 and could have held out for months while Punjab and the nation burned. What do you suggest IG did? Open negotiations with militants? (note I'm not using the T-word here because one man's......you know. This is PDF, after all)

And btw, this is the same "An evil, tyrannical, ruler" that had the ba*** to go to war, and win, in 1971. I'm sure we all love to gloat at that particular victory of her. A strong leader, my friend, is a double edged sword.

I'm not going to argue any more- Hindus concede that many wrongs were done to the Sikhs, not least the aftermath of IG's assasination- that was one of the blackest chapters in our history.

But if you're saying that the Sikhs were pure, righteous, true and brave down to the last man and they were victims all along...and that murdering an unarmed person that you are being paid to protect, a job that keeps you and your family fed and protected, to look her in the eye and gun her down- if that is bravery, then every suicide bomber that blows himself up in a crowded market is very brave indeed.

Peace, bro

well mate thats one side of the coin,,, you are good at writing,, could you please find out the other side of the story..
Bhindrawale was a religious man and he stood to sikh tenets...its different matter you wont understand that.. a freedom fighter or fighter against oppression for one is a terrorist for another/government,, this is true from ancient times and still holds true...

A few points if you could find out on...

What led to 1984 and what were the reasons behind it?
Find out something about Dharmyudh Morcha in Punjab prior to 1984 and why it took place?
What happened in punjab in 1978?
What were sikhs promised in 1947 and how treason was done by congress?

These are some things and i am not too much of a historian. You will get all your answers...

Peace bro,,, sry i dont drink so no cheers.....fateh

 

[Pride]

well mate thats one side of the coin,,, you are good at writing,, could you please find out the other side of the story..

Yes, I have read and discussed the same with my sikh friends.. The point is asking for separation and that too violently can't be responded in nice way.. as this is not only democratic way of protest but violation of Law and order situation.

Bhindrawale was a religious man and he stood to sikh tenets...its different matter you wont understand that.. a freedom fighter or fighter against oppression for one is a terrorist for another/government,, this is true from ancient times and still holds true...

I dont justify acts of IG to use army for Golden Temple.. but would you justify the religious person Bhindrawala to use all ammonition and hostages that too in such a holy place? Same religious Bhindrawala assasined Lala Jagat Narain, who was saved by IG only.

Talking about oppression to whom or what? Indian Constitution support only one "Nation" and if someone who is going against it is called "Enemy of the state". This holds true anywhere in the world. Sikhs wanted, GoI broke Punjab in 3 states. They dont want to use Hindi as their state Language, GOI made Gurumukhi as one of those but then if you ask for separate country, GoI or its citizen will never ever support that.

A few points if you could find out on...

What led to 1984 and what were the reasons behind it?
Find out something about Dharmyudh Morcha in Punjab prior to 1984 and why it took place?

Akali Dal came with multiple demands in 1970s from Anand Sahib Resolution, which was supported again in 1982 by AD and Bhindarawala. GoI were ready for most of them except "Decentralisation of states under the existing constitution, limiting the central government’s role. " and "The transfer of Punjabi speaking and contiguous areas to Punjab."

Couldn't you find out the intentions here??

What happened in punjab in 1978?
What were sikhs promised in 1947 and how treason was done by congress?

Sikhs were promised of autonomy earlier in 1947 but then later on it has been taken back due to integrity of one nation named India. There were subsequent points which I mentioned earlier that GoI went out of way to help them like for "Punjabi Suba" movement.

If GoI accepted treaty that time then there would not be such one state but multiple. We also taken back autonomy of Kahsmir in 1960, merging Goa, Daman & Diu and Pondicherry, inclusion of Sikkim etc. If you will see these things from same glass then GoI done wrong to them.

These are some things and i am not too much of a historian. You will get all your answers...

Peace bro,,, sry i dont drink so no cheers.....fateh

One thing is sure if you ask any Indian here or anywhere you meet. They will condemn all these events with their heart including IG's move. It was such a painful time which has gone. Lets not remember it and feel the pain. On a short nice note, I remember we sing a song for such movement.. "Khalistaan na maango Poora hindustaan tumhara hai".. and see this is true today.. MMS, Montek Singh all Rules... so Singh is really King today..

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hello Joe,

Thankful indeed for your detailed explanation. Clear and informative, as usual!

Yes, Kannadigas were great 'Empire builders'. You named one of them, the Rashtrakutas. There were many more empires originating from this region. Other than the Rashtrakutas,there were the Chalukyas (and their different flavours!), Hoysalas, Kadambas, Gangas and not to forget, the Vijayanagar empire. Probably we cannot include the Bahamani Sultans, the ones from Bijapur or the Mysore under Tipu/Wodeyars as an empire... more of 'kingdom' probably.

So, this particular region did indeed have a knack of coming up with empires and not just mere kingdoms, no doubt about that.

However, having said that, would it be enough to classify 'digas as a martial race... or more so as the superior one? I do have my reservations on that.

Empires are a product of great leaders and generals. Ofcourse it does require able foot soldiers, no doubt. 'Able' as in disciplined, motivated and number of other factors. 'Martial race' is (taking some help from wiki! ) a race considered to be brave and well built for fighting and also having a love/fetish for fights. I am more than willing to give the first point, but have serious problems assigning the last two on the 'digas. And how can I prove my first point in this paragraph? Again using another wiki source as usual, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Karnataka):



No 'digas as the foot soldiers!

Having ranted about for some time, I think I will end my rather longish post saying that I must say that I think I know why you brought this up and agree with you whole-heartedly! And I may have made mistakes with few of the points, as I am reduced to using the internet for information rather than books. A great habit of mine in my younger days, that is reading books, which sadly I have forsaken from ages.

BTW, what's the rent in Silchar like? I probably have to flee from Bangalore soon. I just said that Kannadigas cannot be classified as 'well built'!!!

You have advocated the claims of that glorious country, lying between Narmada and Krishna, brilliantly.

My own aim, actually, was to point out that there is no such animal called a martial race. Any people, rising to defend their homes and hearths, any state or kingdom, administered with justice and fair to its citizens, confident about its abilities, resolute in its intentions, led by men and women who put the common weal before their own selfish purposes and objects, will prevail over the others.

The British laughed at the Italians in the Desert Campaign; Indian Army contingents regularly thrashed their opposing Italian formations; yet at one stage of history, these were the people who manned the ruthless, invincible Roman legions, which mastered Europe and marched deep into Asia.

Those who indulge in rhodomontade about people's martial proclivities should remember that victories over others are entirely over and above such proclivities, or such inherent traits as people wrongly discover in themselves and in each other. These victories are due to martial discipline, to good methods of fighting battles and to good strategic thinking.

Otherwise an Army which at the core used Greek soldiers of less than medium height would never have crushed the tall, strong tribes of the frontier; an Army consisting of the British would never have crushed the Sikhs; and an infantry army of Kannadigas would never have scattered a cavalry army capable of pushing back the Arabs to the other bank of the Indus, in the height of their power and glory.

P.S. Please read the brilliant account written about the Ahom face-off with the Mughals - I was blown away reading it. It's at
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/69037-war-heroes-medieval-india.html

Is there nobody to write on other generals and their campaigns? Malik Kafur, for instance, and his end-run; Hari Singh Nalwa, helping Pathan mothers put their children to sleep; a whole host of others, who helped Shah Jahan, then Aurangzeb, in their early careers in Afghanistan.

 

[RobbieS]

*Sigh*

Here we go again. The wounds of 1984 have almost healed, but the last few scabs remain. In the end, it comes down to exactly this point. Let's not pretend that it's not a Sikh vs Mona POV.

IG created Bhindranwale, yes. After a point, it was Sikhs Vs Hindus in Punjab, and we know who was at the wrong end of the barrel.

The Golden temple was a fortress- a holy place that was used for military means. I'll give you the allowance of "The Sikhs are a martial race, this was their last stand and it's ok that Bhindranwale was living and sleeping and performing bodily functions in the same room as the Holy Book". Fine, defiling the holiest place of worship is justified in your eyes.

In the end, Militants in the Golden Temple represented a direct challenge to the Sovereignty of the Indian state, a lot like a certain attack on Parliament. In your opinion, was that OK? Perhaps you think that was a good thing, do let me know.

Op Black Thunder in 1986 was more successful because they learned lessons from Blue Star. Also, the situation was very different. The militants were much better prepared in '84 and could have held out for months while Punjab and the nation burned. What do you suggest IG did? Open negotiations with militants? (note I'm not using the T-word here because one man's......you know. This is PDF, after all)

And btw, this is the same "An evil, tyrannical, ruler" that had the ba*** to go to war, and win, in 1971. I'm sure we all love to gloat at that particular victory of her. A strong leader, my friend, is a double edged sword.

I'm not going to argue any more- Hindus concede that many wrongs were done to the Sikhs, not least the aftermath of IG's assasination- that was one of the blackest chapters in our history.

Peace, bro

I do not defend the Sikh renegades holed up inside the Golden Temple. And Bhindrawale's temporal residence in the Akal Takht is indefensible although he wasn't staying in the same room as the Granth Sahib.

Why I consider IG evil and tyrannical is due to her acts as a manipulator and a politician. She should have never allowed the situation to get out of control to necessitate a military action. Bhindrawale period of influence extended from '76 to 84 and in those 8 years, she had ample time to act and defuse the tense situations that arose. But she chose to first use him as a pawn, stoke his inflammatory speeches to break the Akalis hold on the Sikh polity and then when things got out of hand, she tries to bring him down.

And for a moment, imagine the holiest shrines of Hinduism, though there isnt any one such shrine, we would assume it to be Badrinath or Kedarnath. Armed RSS and VHP hardwingers hole up inside the complex. Would GoI take such a step as launching Op Bluestar? The whole country would be up in arms against it. And why that didnt happen in case of Op. Bluestar, because Sikhs are minority and it was easy to put them down. So its not a moral question, its a question of whether the opposing party is powerful enough...!

But if you're saying that the Sikhs were pure, righteous, true and brave down to the last man and they were victims all along...and that murdering an unarmed person that you are being paid to protect, a job that keeps you and your family fed and protected, to look her in the eye and gun her down- if that is bravery, then every suicide bomber that blows himself up in a crowded market is very brave indeed.

The Sikhs are a nation within a nation. There are times when duties towards each of these nations might conflict, and IG's assassination was one such time. A Sikh will proudly fight with his non-Sikh brothers against a common enemy, but when his identity and the things he holds dear are threatened, people like IG will be killed.

And be under no misconception. Wounds of 1984 are still alive. What you call scabs are open wounds on the body of Sikh consciousness. And each passing day, as we see killers and violence instigators like Tytler and Sajjan Kumar go scot free, the wound festers.

 

[RobbieS]

Yes, I have read and discussed the same with my sikh friends.. The point is asking for separation and that too violently can't be responded in nice way.. as this is not only democratic way of protest but violation of Law and order situation.


I dont justify acts of IG to use army for Golden Temple.. but would you justify the religious person Bhindrawala to use all ammonition and hostages that too in such a holy place? Same religious Bhindrawala assasined Lala Jagat Narain, who was saved by IG only.

Talking about oppression to whom or what? Indian Constitution support only one "Nation" and if someone who is going against it is called "Enemy of the state". This holds true anywhere in the world. Sikhs wanted, GoI broke Punjab in 3 states. They dont want to use Hindi as their state Language, GOI made Gurumukhi as one of those but then if you ask for separate country, GoI or its citizen will never ever support that.


Akali Dal came with multiple demands in 1970s from Anand Sahib Resolution, which was supported again in 1982 by AD and Bhindarawala. GoI were ready for most of them except "Decentralisation of states under the existing constitution, limiting the central government’s role. " and "The transfer of Punjabi speaking and contiguous areas to Punjab."

Couldn't you find out the intentions here??



Sikhs were promised of autonomy earlier in 1947 but then later on it has been taken back due to integrity of one nation named India. There were subsequent points which I mentioned earlier that GoI went out of way to help them like for "Punjabi Suba" movement.

If GoI accepted treaty that time then there would not be such one state but multiple. We also taken back autonomy of Kahsmir in 1960, merging Goa, Daman & Diu and Pondicherry, inclusion of Sikkim etc. If you will see these things from same glass then GoI done wrong to them.


One thing is sure if you ask any Indian here or anywhere you meet. They will condemn all these events with their heart including IG's move. It was such a painful time which has gone. Lets not remember it and feel the pain. On a short nice note, I remember we sing a song for such movement.. "Khalistaan na maango Poora hindustaan tumhara hai".. and see this is true today.. MMS, Montek Singh all Rules... so Singh is really King today..

The Punjabi Suba demand dragged on for 20 years after independence. Do you know of any other community in India that was at the frontline of the freedom struggle and had to wait for 20 years to get their own state? And further there was a determined campaign by newspapers like those of Lala Jagat Narain to ask Punjabi Hindus to claim Hindi as their language and not Punjabi. The Jan Sangh was specially active in areas of urban Punjab. Those Hindus in Punjab border areas still speak Punjabi but due to a misinformed and evil campaign and their fear of being swallowed by Sikhs they claimed Hindi as their language.

And its very easy to break your promises when your purpose has been achieved, isnt it? Nehru did not want Sikhs to be separate and thus promised a special status according to the contribution and the importance of the community. But once independence had been achieved and there was no longer a danger of Sikhs joining Pakistan, he reneged on his promises. Where did that leave the Sikhs? After countless of sacrifices they didnt even have a state they could call their own. And they had to fight for another 20 years, before they were granted a truncated version of it.

These issues are in the past now and Sikhs are happy with what they have. But these things arent forgotten my friend. Just hope nothing ever happens that reminds them of those times and all will and should be well.

 

[Pride]

I do not defend the Sikh renegades holed up inside the Golden Temple. And Bhindrawale's temporal residence in the Akal Takht is indefensible although he wasn't staying in the same room as the Granth Sahib.

Staying inside holy shrine and making hostages to normal people, If you are saying is justified then we have difference of opinion.

Why I consider IG evil and tyrannical is due to her acts as a manipulator and a politician. She should have never allowed the situation to get out of control to necessitate a military action. Bhindrawale period of influence extended from '76 to 84 and in those 8 years, she had ample time to act and defuse the tense situations that arose. But she chose to first use him as a pawn, stoke his inflammatory speeches to break the Akalis hold on the Sikh polity and then when things got out of hand, she tries to bring him down.

See, Such politicians use the pawns for the same whether it is Bhindrawala or LTTE. The only problem with such strongholds are that these org or people can't handle the power with cool head and hence bring the chaos when it is necessary to shot them down before that you cant justify their cleansing.

And for a moment, imagine the holiest shrines of Hinduism, though there isnt any one such shrine, we would assume it to be Badrinath or Kedarnath. Armed RSS and VHP hardwingers hole up inside the complex. Would GoI take such a step as launching Op Bluestar? The whole country would be up in arms against it. And why that didnt happen in case of Op. Bluestar, because Sikhs are minority and it was easy to put them down. So its not a moral question, its a question of whether the opposing party is powerful enough...!

Robbies, Here you are playing a victim card. You are saying that there were such cases didn't happen with Hindus. I will take to you one such scenario. Before 1992, in 1990 KarSevak, VHP and BJP first attempted to break Babri Masjid when Mulayam Singh Yadav ordered open firing to kill Karsevak. This was the reason Governtment in UP was down and President Rule applied. In 1992, When BJP was in UP that time only Kalyan Singh rejected such demand as he has seen earlier mayhem but this led to destruction of Babri Masjid.

The Sikhs are a nation within a nation. There are times when duties towards each of these nations might conflict, and IG's assassination was one such time. A Sikh will proudly fight with his non-Sikh brothers against a common enemy, but when his identity and the things he holds dear are threatened, people like IG will be killed.
[/QUOTES]
The bolded line is having problem. We all are under one constitution and not allowed to have multiple nations inside. If you are meant with the difference from others then every state and its ethnicity is unique in itself. Just see what Thakre's are doing on the name of Maratha Pride.

And be under no misconception. Wounds of 1984 are still alive. What you call scabs are open wounds on the body of Sikh consciousness. And each passing day, as we see killers and violence instigators like Tytler and Sajjan Kumar go scot free, the wound festers.[/QUOTE]

Here I am with you 100%. These congress buggers should be hanged who openly supported such killing. This is flaw in our judicial system that 2 important cases of '84 Anti Sikhs riots and Bhopal Gas tragedy are still heading nowhere.

 

[RobbieS]

You have advocated the claims of that glorious country, lying between Narmada and Krishna, brilliantly.

My own aim, actually, was to point out that there is no such animal called a martial race. Any people, rising to defend their homes and hearths, any state or kingdom, administered with justice and fair to its citizens, confident about its abilities, resolute in its intentions, led by men and women who put the common weal before their own selfish purposes and objects, will prevail over the others.

The British laughed at the Italians in the Desert Campaign; Indian Army contingents regularly thrashed their opposing Italian formations; yet at one stage of history, these were the people who manned the ruthless, invincible Roman legions, which mastered Europe and marched deep into Asia.

Those who indulge in rhodomontade about people's martial proclivities should remember that victories over others are entirely over and above such proclivities, or such inherent traits as people wrongly discover in themselves and in each other. These victories are due to martial discipline, to good methods of fighting battles and to good strategic thinking.

Otherwise an Army which at the core used Greek soldiers of less than medium height would never have crushed the tall, strong tribes of the frontier; an Army consisting of the British would never have crushed the Sikhs; and an infantry army of Kannadigas would never have scattered a cavalry army capable of pushing back the Arabs to the other bank of the Indus, in the height of their power and glory.

P.S. Please read the brilliant account written about the Ahom face-off with the Mughals - I was blown away reading it. It's at
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/69037-war-heroes-medieval-india.html

Is there nobody to write on other generals and their campaigns? Malik Kafur, for instance, and his end-run; Hari Singh Nalwa, helping Pathan mothers put their children to sleep; a whole host of others, who helped Shah Jahan, then Aurangzeb, in their early careers in Afghanistan.

May be there is no such thing as the martial races, but there are certainly groups/communities more predisposed towards warfare and violence then others. Its in the blood. Its in the genes.

I had a conversation with my friend's dad who retired as an ex-artillery major from the IA. He told me tales of how he as an armyman isn't accorded the respect he deserves in his community, in his state but is envious of the honor and respect that his Punjabi/Sikh colleagues receive. And this guy is a Nair, a supposedly Kshatriya and warrior caste from Kerala. He said he had to run from pillar to post for his state awards and it would have never happened to him had he been in Punjab.

The simple fact is that some societies value their soldiers and some dont. And more often than not, those who do have more martial abilities than others. Now, training and other modern methods might nullify the advantage but you count discount thousands of years of history.

 

[RobbieS]

Staying inside holy shrine and making hostages to normal people, If you are saying is justified then we have difference of opinion.

As I said, its not justified.

See, Such politicians use the pawns for the same whether it is Bhindrawala or LTTE. The only problem with such strongholds are that these org or people can't handle the power with cool head and hence bring the chaos when it is necessary to shot them down before that you cant justify their cleansing.

Agree with you.

Robbies, Here you are playing a victim card. You are saying that there were such cases didn't happen with Hindus. I will take to you one such scenario. Before 1992, in 1990 KarSevak, VHP and BJP first attempted to break Babri Masjid when Mulayam Singh Yadav ordered open firing to kill Karsevak. This was the reason Governtment in UP was down and President Rule applied. In 1992, When BJP was in UP that time only Kalyan Singh rejected such demand as he has seen earlier mayhem but this led to destruction of Babri Masjid.

Firing on a few people and using tanks and attack helicopters are two very different things. Honestly, I dont see GoI ever mounting an armed assault on a Hindu shrine, whatever may be the provocation.

The bolded line is having problem. We all are under one constitution and not allowed to have multiple nations inside. If you are meant with the difference from others then every state and its ethnicity is unique in itself. Just see what Thakre's are doing on the name of Maratha Pride.

The Sikh scriptures and history supports my statement. Its a Quam and the word is openly used during Ardas (Sikh prayer) and in religious discourses. Its a fact and is essential to their existence. I dont support measures like Thakre's to beat and force people out of their state.

Here I am with you 100%. These congress buggers should be hanged who openly supported such killing. This is flaw in our judicial system that 2 important cases of '84 Anti Sikhs riots and Bhopal Gas tragedy are still heading nowhere.

The judiciary needs to be free of political interference.

 

[Pride]

The Punjabi Suba demand dragged on for 20 years after independence. Do you know of any other community in India that was at the frontline of the freedom struggle and had to wait for 20 years to get their own state? And further there was a determined campaign by newspapers like those of Lala Jagat Narain to ask Punjabi Hindus to claim Hindi as their language and not Punjabi. The Jan Sangh was specially active in areas of urban Punjab. Those Hindus in Punjab border areas still speak Punjabi but due to a misinformed and evil campaign and their fear of being swallowed by Sikhs they claimed Hindi as their language.

Let me openly say that, There was nothing logical in demand of Punjab Suba. Sikhs from both (partitioned) the punjab wants a separate state only to have their specific reason to have majority of Sikhs in State. Isn't it flawed logic to have only less area for your whole community? isn't it only for political profit of few people?

Regarding Gurumukhi and Hindi dispute same happened in Tamil Nadu and for protesting they burnt themselves and not started ethnic cleansing of Hindi speaking people. Here again killing Lala by Bhindrawala is wrong.

And its very easy to break your promises when your purpose has been achieved, isnt it? Nehru did not want Sikhs to be separate and thus promised a special status according to the contribution and the importance of the community. But once independence had been achieved and there was no longer a danger of Sikhs joining Pakistan, he reneged on his promises. Where did that leave the Sikhs? After countless of sacrifices they didnt even have a state they could call their own. And they had to fight for another 20 years, before they were granted a truncated version of it.

Only one logic.. National integrity is above to all.. If I have to be killed for maintaining such integrity.. I will be happily died. I dont believe in any such Martial race theory which needs special privileges. Muslims wanted a separate state, They have been given because of National integrity of remaining Indians. This was not true with Sikhs as handful people were there to support. Same case was with Frontier Gandhi and his colleagues supporting NWFP for India.

These issues are in the past now and Sikhs are happy with what they have. But these things arent forgotten my friend. Just hope nothing ever happens that reminds them of those times and all will and should be well.

True buddy, Past is black somewhere and hence a deep scar is on heart and memory but I feel now we have moved long way from all this and should continue with that.

 

[ranveer]

dear so u do accept that in the name of national integrity the sikhs were cheated by the indian government... sikhs were promised seperate government in india which was denied even they refused to accept sikh as a different religion even it is denied till date...
again regarding the hostages in Golden temple were none,,,, what u know is from the govt agencies news or mouth of word... and again if bhindrawale were to fight behind the hostages sayin he was coward, he would have fleed seeing such a big army...its not everyones heart to stay and fight when u know u will be dead.... same like the singhs who shot gandhi...
again sir regarding Nation first,,,has any family member of urs being taken away by police and u dont know of where abouts for years... when it will come to u then u will know untill then its of no use...

 

[RobbieS]

Let me openly say that, There was nothing logical in demand of Punjab Suba.

Linguistics was the prime determinant of the formation of states in poet-Independent India. State of Bombay was divided into Gujarat and Bombay merged with Maharashtra. And its fallacious to assume that only Sikhs wanted the Punjabi Suba. The movement was given a communal color by vested interests. Punjabi Hindus were as much speakers of the language as were the Sikhs.

Only one logic.. National integrity is above to all.. If I have to be killed for maintaining such integrity.. I will be happily died. I dont believe in any such Martial race theory which needs special privileges. Muslims wanted a separate state, They have been given because of National integrity of remaining Indians. This was not true with Sikhs as handful people were there to support. Same case was with Frontier Gandhi and his colleagues supporting NWFP for India.

And do you think India is a stronger nation now due to Nehru's decision? What was the price that the fabric of the country's unity had to pay for Nehru's folly? If Punjabi Suba had been granted sooner, things wouldnt have gone to such a head.

 

[Pride]

As I said, its not justified.




Agree with you.

Firing on a few people and using tanks and attack helicopters are two very different things. Honestly, I dont see GoI ever mounting an armed assault on a Hindu shrine, whatever may be the provocation.

Neither then CM Mulayam Singh Yadav was Indira Gandhi nor Karsevak were lass with ammonition (with support of Neighbours). Hence the impact was less but was the same. Hindu police killed Hindu Karsevkas on the orders of Hindu CM even for Hindus' holy place. Same was true for Lieutenant General Brar who guided Golden Temple attack or KPS Gill who finished insurgency. Isn't it justify that Law and order is above to everything, even it is one's religion?

The Sikh scriptures and history supports my statement. Its a Quam and the word is openly used during Ardas (Sikh prayer) and in religious discourses. Its a fact and is essential to their existence. I dont support measures like Thakre's to beat and force people out of their state.

I am not discussing about separate religion or Quam. I respect like any other Sikhism as separate religion but what I am saying is that there are "no nation within nation" concept supported because of one's beliefs. Like we cant have Sharia Law for Muslims in secular state of India, GoI can give them their Personal Law board which GoI have given.

The judiciary needs to be free of political interference.

Can't help Buddy.. Sad but true..

 

[Sher-e-Punjab]

Well written..Gary Singh
But there are some factual fallacies...corrections are alongwith:
1. Its King Porus not the Pontus kingdom....Porus refused to surrender to Alexander's armies...but he lost ..however Alexander returned him his crown after meeting him..his kingdom lay b/w jhelum and chenab.
2. Guru Gobind singh was the 10th guru...6th guru Hargobind also had skirmishes with Mughals but 10th gurus father the 9th guru was killed by the Mughals
3. Army of immortals,was the Khalsa...not Akalas...but akalis were a part the Khalsa
4.Operation bluestar ..unofficial death toll
Army : 400 KIA
Militant + Civilian: 730
Total :1200
Source: Mr Chellaney API..only journalist in amritsar at the time
Bole so nihaal SAT SRI AKAL

 

[IBRIS]

Lolz You have to come to US and Canada, Sikh here are more backwards than Sikhs in India, they might not know how to write Gurmukhi but they are chest thumping what caste they belong to I mostly ignore Sikhs these days, hardly they study or goto good universities or work in high tech firms etc etc

WoW.......We gotta PAL for you named Harry_Mohan awhile back who had very deep grudges against Punjabi Sikh's.

It's good thing you ignore us, because your attitude towards us is very childish.

Chudda/Chammars are not Sikh castes. They actually believe in both Hinduism and Sikhism. But now a days i have seen even chudda/chammar's are even more successful than the elites in Haryana, Punjab, Himachal.